Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

I spent a month or so in CAL this summer, the entire time I was in N & S CAL I only saw one electric car, a leaf....I was all over the bay area, north to Oregon border & the orange county area and I did not see a single tesla anywhere over the ~2,000 miles driven around the state......the only tesla's I have seen over the last year were in the denver area & in Las Vegas proper.....at least in the places I have spent time in & around over the last year these things are still only a rich $^&*(! toy, not a real average person's transportation.....at least not yet....

I see 2-4 a week just in San Diego

rustycat said:

For all the interest in EVs, they account for less than 1/4 of 1% of the cars on the road. I find that amazing.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what the 2017 EV sales market share is here, but it's now over 2% in China. And growing very rapidly. I've actually seen quite a few Teslas up here in Maine this summer. A lot of them belong to the affluent vacationers coming up from Mass. and NY. The manager of the local grocery drives a model S that I see at least once a week.

Here in NJ, I see at least two Teslas a week, during my commute.

As I drove around Knoxville today, I happened across a few EV charging spots in a parking garage. They were not metered, just a 220 line hanging out in the parking spot. What I want to know is: Where is my free fuel?? Why do people that have bought an EV get to drive around for free and avoid paying road use taxes (by not buying fuel that is taxed per gallon) when the rest of us still pay? And just who is furnishing the electricity for these vehicles in this parking structure? I have a feeling it is the city of Knoxville, which means that it is really the tax paying citizens, such as myself, that are left to foot the bill for others to drive around for free... This doesn't sit well with me especially with the plethora of other issues in which funding would help. Free EV charging does nothing to help the homeless, the opioid epidemic or drug related shootings that happen weekly now.

Sent from my mobile look-at device

\/\/0J0 said:

As I drove around Knoxville today, I happened across a few EV charging spots in a parking garage. They were not metered, just a 220 line hanging out in the parking spot.What I want to know is: Where is my free fuel?? Why do people that have bought an EV get to drive around for free and avoid paying road use taxes (by not buying fuel that is taxed per gallon) when the rest of us still pay? And just who is furnishing the electricity for these vehicles in this parking structure? I have a feeling it is the city of Knoxville, which means that it is really the tax paying citizens, such as myself, that are left to foot the bill for others to drive around for free... This doesn't sit well with me especially with the plethora of other issues in which funding would help. Free EV charging does nothing to help the homeless, the opioid epidemic or drug related shootings that happen weekly now.

Click to expand...

Your free fuel is right there waiting for you. You just need to buy an EV to take advantage of it. If it really bothers you that much, I suggest you wait around for somebody to plug in and give them a piece of your mind. Kidding. Make a donation to the red cross- that'll make you feel better.

So, there's a couple big factors behind a city offering charging at the taxpayer's expense, and it making sense.

• People driving in the city choosing to drive an EV reduces local tailpipe air pollution, reducing the health damages of that pollution.
• People driving an EV choosing to drive into the city for free charging are likely to spend time near that free charging, making them more likely to patronize local businesses, increasing tax revenue for the city

In addition, road use taxes being based on fuel consumption often means that car drivers are disproportionately subsidizing heavy truck traffic. And, in many states, EV drivers are now being held to road use taxes, in the form of a fixed fee added to their annual registration. (In many cases, these taxes are ridiculously high, and are an attempt by pro-fossil fuel lobbyists to deter EV usage, but some tax is fair.)

There's no free charging at any places I go for shopping, eating, etc.. The Chevy dealer is suppose to put up chargers for the Bolts, but they haven't yet. Even if they do, I might be there long enough to charge a whopping 17 cents worth of juice.

El Dobro said:

There's no free charging at any places I go for shopping, eating, etc.. The Chevy dealer is suppose to put up chargers for the Bolts, but they haven't yet. Even if they do, I might be there long enough to charge a whopping 17 cents worth of juice.

Click to expand...

Check with bhtooefr above. He seems to know where they are. Could be they are near a Saks of 5th Avenue or inside a Strarbucks where the Tesla owners shop while charging.

http://plugshare.com is where to look, really.

bhtooefr said:

http://plugshare.com is where to look, really.

Click to expand...

Plugshare and Chargepoint. None in the places I frequent.

In my area, there's nothing except for the odd 110 volt outlet at a hotel.

bhtooefr said:

In my area, there's nothing except for the odd 110 volt outlet at a hotel.

Click to expand...

Not that I shop there, but even the Whole Foods around here don't have charging stations, free or pay. Luckily, all the places I go to are all in the EV range of the Volt, including my commute.

aja8888 said:

The next scary part is that used pickups are selling for bigger dollars in Texas than I care to spend. May not be the same elsewhere.

Click to expand...

And thanks to Hurricane Harvey and the flooding in Houston/other areas I bet some pickups got flood damage now which may drive up the prices of "dry" used pickups across Texas...

They say some areas may not have power for weeks. Reports also say gas may be in short supply in affected areas and/or no power to run the pumps. Got me to wondering how long does an charge in an EV last since there won't be a way to recharge if power is out long-term? And yes, I know if one doesn't use an EV then obviously there should be some power still available in the battery depending upon usage of the vehicle.

aja8888 said:

I don't have a problem with big truck depreciation, but when I was looking at getting a new truck last winter (expecting year end sales), I was shocked to find that the "cheapest" F-150 on the lot was carrying a MSRP of $42,000. And it was nothing special. 90% of the F-150 inventory at the dealer I was at was $55 - $70K.

Click to expand...

At least in my neck of the woods, almost all those half ton pickups are advertised with $10K off the sticker most of the time. The bigger trucks don't have the advertised "dealer" drop but when it comes to sitting across the table, they come down a lot on the first go around. Of course that NC where only about 40% of the households own pickups.

\/\/0J0 said:

As I drove around Knoxville today, I happened across a few EV charging spots in a parking garage. They were not metered, just a 220 line hanging out in the parking spot. What I want to know is: Where is my free fuel?? Why do people that have bought an EV get to drive around for free and avoid paying road use taxes (by not buying fuel that is taxed per gallon) when the rest of us still pay? And just who is furnishing the electricity for these vehicles in this parking structure? I have a feeling it is the city of Knoxville, which means that it is really the tax paying citizens, such as myself, that are left to foot the bill for others to drive around for free... This doesn't sit well with me especially with the plethora of other issues in which funding would help. Free EV charging does nothing to help the homeless, the opioid epidemic or drug related shootings that happen weekly now.

Sent from my mobile look-at device

Click to expand...

Many property owners (hotels, restaurants, shopping malls) install charging infrastructure as a free perk to entice more shoppers to their locations... it's their prerogative. Electricity is so cheap in many cases that may be a better value than some traditional forms of advertising.

You too can enjoy some "free fuel" by buying an EV. Just be aware that you won't be able to skate for free on road taxes like you seem to think - most jurisdictions charge flat annual registration fees (to make up for the loss of gas tax) to EVs and plug-in hybrids that exceed what the equivalent fuel road tax would be on a similar vehicle.

251 said:

And thanks to Hurricane Harvey and the flooding in Houston/other areas I bet some pickups got flood damage now which may drive up the prices of "dry" used pickups across Texas...

They say some areas may not have power for weeks. Reports also say gas may be in short supply in affected areas and/or no power to run the pumps. Got me to wondering how long does an charge in an EV last since there won't be a way to recharge if power is out long-term? And yes, I know if one doesn't use an EV then obviously there should be some power still available in the battery depending upon usage of the vehicle.

Click to expand...

The Gulf coast of Texas is in really rough shape right now... and it's continuing to get worse as Harvey sits mostly stalled out on the coastline.

The areas that won't have power for weeks will also likely be under water for similar periods of time. A lot of the people in those areas have had their cars flooded, so how much fuel is in the tank (or charge in the battery) is irrelevant.

For those folks who aren't flooded and still have no power, gas will likely be as scarce as electricity is, for without electricity, the gas pumps cannot pump. Also, the flooded roads make it difficult or impossible for fuel to get delivered.

Current EVs have a range that ranges from 80 to 300 miles. Teslas will have some parasitic drain (a couple of miles per day) if you don't put them in total shutdown mode (an option on the main control screen), but most other EVs do not. They can stay parked for days or weeks without any appreciable loss of battery power.

Someone somewhere charged a Nissan LEAF off of a gas generator (Honda EU2000) and did the math on how efficient it was. While it's a ridiculously inefficient way to charge an electric car, they still ended up getting 25-30 miles per gallon. Fortunately, most power outages are localized and one usually only has to drive a few miles to find a place with electricity (except for events like the great northeast blackout).

aja8888 said:

Check with bhtooefr above. He seems to know where they are. Could be they are near a Saks of 5th Avenue or inside a Strarbucks where the Tesla owners shop while charging.

Click to expand...

The Y I use has a city lot next to it that has four charging units. In another part of the same development area, there's another six units. We stopped on I-40 in TN and noticed 6-8 Tesla chargers by the welcome center and behind Waffle House. As for sightings, I see at least one Tesla a day. The others are harder to identify. I saw my first EGolf in San Fran a year or so back and the only way I noticed it was the HOV exempt lane stickers. Then I saw it had no tail pipes.

251 said:

And thanks to Hurricane Harvey and the flooding in Houston/other areas I bet some pickups got flood damage now which may drive up the prices of "dry" used pickups across Texas...

They say some areas may not have power for weeks. Reports also say gas may be in short supply in affected areas and/or no power to run the pumps. Got me to wondering how long does an charge in an EV last since there won't be a way to recharge if power is out long-term? And yes, I know if one doesn't use an EV then obviously there should be some power still available in the battery depending upon usage of the vehicle.

Click to expand...

The main issue is that a majority of the fuel refineries are on the Texas Gulf coast. Ripple effect of those being shut down for at least a weeks is already starting. Rug prices went up a dime on Friday. My wife made the comment that if the refineries are shutdown, then it makes a good argument for an electric car. I pointed out that most of that area is without power so your ecar isn't going to help much. Even if you have solar panels, you still need some sunshine to charge the batteries.

kjclow said:

The main issue is that a majority of the fuel refineries are on the Texas Gulf coast. Ripple effect of those being shut down for at least a weeks is already starting. Rug prices went up a dime on Friday. My wife made the comment that if the refineries are shutdown, then it makes a good argument for an electric car. I pointed out that most of that area is without power so your ecar isn't going to help much. Even if you have solar panels, you still need some sunshine to charge the batteries.

Click to expand...

I think your wife has a valid observation. Refineries being shut down will cause price increases across the country, while power outages are usually going to be localized. Either way, the people of Houston aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

Of the 175 or so refineries in the U.S., only a dozen or so are affected by Harvey, and those are just put into idle mode. One issue is getting crude into the refineries as it (mostly) arrives by ocean going tanker. Crude is pipelined in also.

Local fuel supplies are hampered due to the inability of tankers being able to get to terminals to pick up loads and get to retail stations. And with no power, the retail outlets can't pump out.

We are under water here in Houston and will be for a week or so. Plus, the real flooding hasn't started yet as the creeks are rising and the two large flood control reservoirs are just now starting to release 4,000 cubic feet per SECOND out of their dams into the bayou systems (the reservoirs are going over capacity).

There are no Teslas or Leafs running around the streets here (only tall pickup trucks), and not many places to charge them. I wonder what would happen to an electric car if the battery location went under water?

This area is quite a mess, with flooding everywhere, ALL the freeways are under water in many locations. Reports indicate 350 road locations in Harris County are not passable and that number is rising hourly.

We live 20 miles north of Houston proper and its a mess here, but some areas still have power (us, for now).

I wish you all well. Powering or fueling vehicles seems like the least of your worries in the grand scheme of things, but I realize it is essential in the effort to keep people out of harm's way.

I have dealt with flooding around me multiple times over the years. I feel fortunate it has never done any property damage to me personally, but I know lots of people who were not so lucky.

When Sandy hit this area, we didn't get flooded, but we did lose power for a few days. I had a plug-in Prius at the time, so I hooked up a power inverter to it and kept a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump and a few small things running until the power came back.

After the battery was used up, the car would cycle on to recharge it then shut down. It worked out quite well.

If I add an EV to the stable, I'll use it during power shortages as a power wall.

aja8888 said:

There are no Teslas or Leafs running around the streets here (only tall pickup trucks), and not many places to charge them. I wonder what would happen to an electric car if the battery location went under water?

Click to expand...

This Tesla made it through a flooded tunnel while other cars where stopped or stalled.

The obvious advantage of electric drive is that it doesn't need air so you can't kill the engine by getting water into the intake which is what stops most cars trying to cross a flooded road (which no one should ever try)

Grid-tied PV systems that can operate off-grid are becoming more common and less expensive. This would be a great resource in the aftermath of a natural disaster.

It may have made it through, but what a stupid move!

rustycat said:

For all the interest in EVs, they account for less than 1/4 of 1% of the cars on the road. I find that amazing.

Click to expand...

I've been discussing this on a Bolt board. I live in an area with very few EVs...less than 1000 in a province with a population of 4 million people.

FY2016, 17.6 millions cars & trucks were sold in the USA. Of those, 159,333 were EVs:

http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/04/news/companies/car-sales-2016/index.html

http://5vtj648dfk323byvjb7k1e9w.wpe...nt/uploads/2017/01/us-ev-sales-2016-final.jpg

So, <1% of new cars purchased were EVs.

No doubt this will change when the Model 3 production goes full tilt.

bhtooefr said:

In addition, road use taxes being based on fuel consumption often means that car drivers are disproportionately subsidizing heavy truck traffic. And, in many states, EV drivers are now being held to road use taxes, in the form of a fixed fee added to their annual registration. (In many cases, these taxes are ridiculously high, and are an attempt by pro-fossil fuel lobbyists to deter EV usage, but some tax is fair.)

Click to expand...

EV drivers pay for roads the same way most of the country's drivers do...via general taxes like income/sales taxes. In California, "fuel tax" and direct user fees only pay for about 1/5 of the total cost our roads.

bizzle said:

EV drivers pay for roads the same way most of the country's drivers do...via general taxes like income/sales taxes. In California, "fuel tax" and direct user fees only pay for about 1/5 of the total cost our roads.

Click to expand...

..... and EVs pay how much of the 1/5 th ?

2015vwgolfdiesel said:

..... and EVs pay how much of the 1/5 th ?

Click to expand...

How much of the cost of their emissions are non-EVs paying?

2015vwgolfdiesel said:

..... and EVs pay how much of the 1/5 th ?

Click to expand...

In CA, EV's will pay a considerably higher annual registration fee than gas vehicles (starting in a couple years).