Cam replacement - help me understand break-in oil

Bellyman

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There are quite a few people dealing with replacing camshafts here so I'm thinking this may be a part of the process. Otherwise, I wasn't sure if this could have gone in the "fuel & lubes" forum. (?)

From the reading I've done here, there are a number of opinions on break-in oil, many quite similar, but one or two radically different from others.

What I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around is what is going on in an engine that we would need a different kind of oil after a cam and lifter replacement. When we use the break-in oil, are we tring to do a sort of controled wear? Is the break-in oil supposed to allow less wear than the synthetic that we're supposed to be running?

I guess it's not so much a procedure I'm looking for. I can find several in a search here. But I was looking a little deeper trying to understand why a break-in oil. What happens if you just stick the synthetic that you intend to run for the next 150k miles in it from the beginning?

Just trying to go beyond "he said" or "she said" and understand what's going on at a deeper level.

Anybody wanna have a shot at 'splainin' it? I can't be the first one to wonder. ;)

Thanks,

Brian
 

Dimitri16V

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Personally I would just use M-1 TDT 5W-40 for the initial break-in and coat the surfaces with zddp additive.
I don't think synthetics would prevent the cam lobes and lifter surfaces from breaking in . Using a dino oil would probably be fine too as long as it something with higher viscosity and enough additives.
 

Bellyman

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Thanks, Dimitri,

That's one of the viewpoints I've seen from a couple of people. And I'm not arguing one way or another.

But I do read about a number of other very respected people who suggest rather strongly that we need to be using a break-in oil as a part of the procedure for replacing a cam.

I have a hard time remembering the "rules" until I understand the "why" behind them. Once that clicks, it's more like common sense.

I also wondered what the deal is about not idling the engine after starting it up with the fresh new cam. Is it a matter of oil pressure? Less vibration or stress?

I dunno, maybe I'm asking questions where I shouldn't and should just quietly go obey someone's instructions (pick the ones I think I like the best??).

It's not a matter of trying to be obnoxious, not at all. It's just that when I understand the "why" of something, it opens up a whole new world.

Thanks again for the reply.

Brian
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I'd do the same think the Volkswagen factory does every year with hundreds of thousands of engines: put some motor oil of the proper spec on the engine parts, fill the crankcase up, and start the car and drive it like normal.

People overthink a lot of things, this is one of them. If "improper cam break-in" was such an issue, you'd see brand new cars littering the dealer service bays with flat cams before their first scheduled PM. But you don't. So it isn't.

Drive more, worry less. :)
 

PDJetta

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Brian:

The Bentley Manual for the BEW engine in the camshaft R & R section simply states to coat surfacs with engine oil.

--Nate
 

coalminer16

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I would think your normal oil would work fine since you don't want a controlled wear on anything other then the piston rings with the cylinder walls. Am I wrong on that assumption? I would thing the correct oil would help prevent the wear on the cam which is what you want.
 

PDJetta

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There is also a certain bearing cap tightening sequence for the BEW listed in the Bentley Manual. If you need it, I can look this evening. Just let me know.

--Nate
 

Franko6

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I know I get an argument on the worthiness of break-in oils.

Don't take it from me. Google "Flat Tappet Break-In" or "Cam Break-in". Start reading. The first 1/2 hr of cam and lifter contact is where the difference happens. For a few dollars more, I'm going to try to do the best.

I won't make as much of an issue of break-in oils for stock ALH's or any engine before, when you are worried about cam break-in, but if you are talking about PD motors, the question changes. Despite however many PD's are on the road without issue, there are a LOT of PD motors biting the dust due to excessive cam/ lifter wear. On the PD's, I would not suggest cutting any corners on break-in.

If a car gets re-ringed, it sure helps to get the job done.

Other than that, VW does put the engines through their own break-in period and use their own methods, which they don't divulge. I can't say if they do or don't use an initial period break-in oil, but you can bet it's not what you get off the shelf.
 

Bellyman

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I have been reading online and I must not be getting it. Most are pointing at gas powered racing situations and looking at various diesel oils that have better additive packages, sometimes wanting to add ZDDP or use off road oils. Umm, we're using diesel oil all the time.

I'm trying to figure out... if the ZDDP or heavier additive oils are desirable so that there isn't damage from the cam lobe sliding over the tappet while these things get to know each other, why is it often stated that a synthetic is too "slippery" to be used as a break in oil?

I'm not trying to be obnoxious, really I'm not. But after reading and reading and reading, it sounds like going to the doctor with a sprain and him saying I need to use "hot ice" to treat it. "Just heat the ice up, it's the best of both worlds." I know that sounds stupid, but it's making almost as much sense as what I'm reading online.

The other thing I'm finding is that a lot of the information online is old and I'm doubting that the products and formulations that were available in 4 or 5 years ago are still as available today.

Again, I'm not saying a break in oil is right or wrong, but I'm really not any closer to understanding WHY one would be needed and what it's doing differently than our typical everyday diesel engine oil.

It may be beyond my understanding, and I won't belabor the subject. I'm just someone who has a hard time leaving an unsolved puzzle alone. Beleive it or not, these are the kinds of things that will keep me awake at nights trying to get a logical and rational handle on. LOL!

Thanks for the replies. :)

Brian
 

Bellyman

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There is also a certain bearing cap tightening sequence for the BEW listed in the Bentley Manual. If you need it, I can look this evening. Just let me know.

--Nate
Thanks, Nate. I do have the Bentley manual and just looked through the sequence again. But I appreciate the offer.

Brian
 

schoolsout

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All I can say is the Joe Gibbs BR30 oil is really not any more expensive than any other oil you'd use.

A case shipped is about $95-100 and that is for 10 qts (might be 12, but not sure). So, why not? You're going to change the oil rapidly after break-in from what I understand.
 

Bellyman

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No problem on the expense. Some BR30 is relatively minor when looking at the grand I'm dropping on this little field trip. It's not about the money. I just would kinda like to understand WHY I'm doing what I'm doing, that's all.

(Notice I didn't say that I was going to use it, nor did I say I wasn't going to use it.)

Brian
 

schoolsout

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I feel your pain on the costs associated here

I've done the DMF and have sent off a check for the cam stuff all within about one month. I don't know the whys, all I know is that it was recommended by a few that are much smarter than me.
 

Franko6

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When VW puts an the engine together, they use a break-in oil. When I put an engine together, I use a break-in oil.

Sure, when you are racing, you ALWAYS break in an engine.

If you think about it, we are talking a low rpm, high pressure, long-life expectancy engine. I'm going to give it the best opportunity to get it right.

That's the way I was brought up on engines.

Btw: another drumbeat you'll hear when talking break-in. Use a non-synthetic oil.

JG is 12 qt case for $86.

Edit: Some think that adding ZDDP additives to oil is a good break-in idea. Wrong...

One of the reasons I use a break-in oil is that the oil is not only non-synthetic, but also non-detergent. The reason... The detergents and the ZDDP fight each other. The ZDDP is trying to get on the cam and the detergents are trying clean them off. You want the ZDDP to fill any microscopic pores in the cam and lifter faces. The smooth and pore-less finish is the desirable goal.
 
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danham

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I can't add to the break-in oil debate, other than to observe that having rebuilt many Porsche, Audi and VW engines have never used it and never had problems. But be aware this was before synthetics came along.

As for not letting it idle for long periods, that's true of any new/rebuilt engine: you want plenty of oil pressure at all times.

The last vehicle I did a cam/lifters job on was my 302 V8 Ford and the new (aftermarket, performance) cam came with special assembly lube and a strict warning to keep revs above 2500 or so for at least the first 30 minutes.

-dan
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
When VW puts an the engine together, they use a break-in oil.
Who says? I want proof. ;)

We've all seen the videos of VAG engine assembly, looks like motor oil, but who really knows?

It would seem if they did use something "special", they would also have us using it on service in the field, but they don't (never have). Always just engine oil.

These are not Veyrons, VAG is not running in each and every of the x00,000 engines they build every year, no way. The cost associated with that is FAR more than any company that large would stomach. I contend each and every engine, aside from some of the more exotic few, is assembled by robots and a few people like normal, filled with oil, and dropped in the car, and its first start-up is at the end of the final assembly line when it is driven out of the plant.

Chrysler did that right here in Fenton, and while I am not saying VAG and ChryCo do everything the same, they obviously don't, but I bet this they do.
 

Powder Hound

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I think Oilhammer probably has the best take on things.

And I think coalminer16 also has a good take in that the only place real wear is a big concern is on the piston rings during a new engine's life.

So what I did when I replaced the cam and lifters in the 2-dr (the problem of excessive wear was a product of the previous owner's use of quick-lube places, I am sure) was coat the lifter tops, cam lobes and cam bearings with Redline assembly lube and filled it with the regular oil I use. Unless there's reason to panic on the initial startup and a small chance of oil starvation during that time (and the initial coat of oil should ameliorate that), then you'll be good to go. I don't think the new cam would necessarily require a new oil change even, just that as long as you're there, you may as well, I suppose.
 

schoolsout

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using the Joe Gibbs non-synthetic won't mess the engine up after using nothing but synthetic, I take it?

I'm getting more confused
 

Franko6

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Let me be perfectly straight.

Break-in is your call. But if you follow the number of businesses that build aftermarket cams and lifters, they all say the same thing. USE NON-SYNTHETIC BREAK-IN OIL. Start the engine quickly and run for 1/2 hr. Drain oil. Change filter.

I'll put it another way.

After putting sometimes $3000- $4000 or more into an engine, you are going to penny-pinch on oil? Be my guest. I call the break-in oil insurance.
 

Bellyman

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FWIW... I have break in oil, and I'll very likely use it. But I still don't quite know why, other than "somebody said so".

I'm figuring that it won't do any harm. Just wish I understood a little better.

Sorry if it was a rather "hot" question. It wasn't intended to be controversial so much as just educational.

Thanks to all for the answers.

Brian
 

Dimitri16V

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I am not arguing about the choice of oil. I think either break in or synthetic should work. BUT you want to keep the rpms @ 2000 for at least 15 min.
Reason is, the lifters spin when the lobes actuate them, they spin less at idle. the lifters and lobes establish a wear pattern when the engine is started and you want the lifters to spin fast to create the perfect pattern with the lobes and also keep them lubricated and cool
 

Franko6

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Dimitri,

Just as synthetics have their place, so do break-in oils.

One thing that is not understood. The break-in oil does not run cool. I think of it as a honing oil. It is intended to help parts mate. I run no-load and reach temps of 95-100c. I varying the rpms. The ZDDP is activated and is working at temperature.

Just as engine oils intended for duration and long-life are intended for minimizing wear, the break-in oils are intended to create the honing effect. They also allow the ZDDP to work as intended, instead of fighting the degergents formulated for the purpose of wear REDUCTION, the oil allows the break-in POLISHING.

I think that is the point. Break-in oils make a very controlled environment to seat and mate engine parts.

I would love to see the difference after 500 miles between two cams; one using Joe Gibbs BR break-in oil and the other using the recommended synthetic oil as a break-in oil.

Any bets which will look better? Do you think they will look the same? I'll take pics and we will soon see what the JG driven cams looks like.
 

Bellyman

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I think I see where you're coming from, Frank. Crontrolled environment for break-in polishing. I won't pretend to understand everything that's going on with that train of thought, but at least that makes some logical sense. I can process that.

Thank you!!

Brian
 

mlemorie

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On my car I just coated it with the oil I was using and went from there (remember to let your lifters set for 30 min before rolling the engine over). I just checked my cam last friday after 33k miles and it looks fantastic, no signs of any abnormal wear; the lifters look great as well, no signs of any surface cracks. For only a camshaft I wouldnt be so concerned about a break in oil; however if I were doing a full rebuild and having all the cylinders honed and whatnot then yes I would definately use a break in oil. If you want to get even more in depth you can look up all the different break in procedures too lol.
 

Franko6

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I can make more credence for breaking in a PD cam.

One head I built last year had only 15,000 miles on the cam and lifters and unfortunately, something let loose in the belt circuit. The cam and lifters crashed again. What I found interesting is the centers of every lifter that was still intact had worn through the nitride. I was not the one who had replaced the cam and lifter set or did I do the belt job. But I didn't like seeing the nitride worn through with no more miles than that.

That is when I decided to persue the break-in oils. I wanted no excuses.

Btw: unless you remove the cam, you cannot see the center of the lifter.
 
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