EGR Cooler/valve

2002 Harv

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Joined
May 14, 2006
Location
Cleveland area
TDI
2004 TDI PD
Ok, I have had the slight coolent dissapearence since i bought my 04 PD Jetta wagon. I figured I could live with the problem for a little while till I felt like taking the hit and buying the part (the egr cooler) and do the install. Yesterday, while we were driving to my Mom's house (500mi) The check engine (check emitions) light came on. Since it was a Sunday and we were far from home, we trudged on. When I got to Mass. I had my friend scan the car for codes. We got (insufficient egr flow) from his Launch scan tool. He reset the ecu and the light came back on in about 10 miles.
So my question is this.
Is the EGR cooler and the EGR valve the same part?
I don't think there is any harm in driving the car till I do the job considering the car runs normally and the temp gauge is normal at 190.

John
 

Fortuna Wolf

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Joined
Apr 28, 2006
Location
Wilmington, NC
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI Auto Sedan
There's no great harm to be had, just some coolant migration into the motor oil. Its a bad EGR cooler on 2004 PDs. The cooler has been redesigned but failure is very common.
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
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Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
The coolant leak is into the exhaust side. A little coolant may get into the oil, if it does, its not much. My guess is that the leak caused the coolant to evaporate in the cooler, gumming it up, reducing the exhaust flow through it, tripping the CEL after the Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor detected more air flow through it (since less flow was through the EGR valve).

No harm whatsoever driving the car with the CEL on and too little EGR flow (actually, its better for the car), but the leaky EGR cooler is not.

The EGR cooler and EGR valve are two different parts. The cooler cools exhaust before it reaches the valve, which meters the exhaust into the intake manifold, in conjunction with the electric throttle plate.

--Nate
 

2002 Harv

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May 14, 2006
Location
Cleveland area
TDI
2004 TDI PD
So I'm guessing that I need a new cooler and new EGR valve. Anyone think the EGR valve is cleanable? The car has 57K on it. When I'm ordering the parts, should I get all the gaskets for the intake manefold and clean that too?

John
 

tongsli

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Joined
Jan 31, 2000
Location
Baltimore, MD
TDI
2000 Jetta TDI, 2004, Jetta Wagon TDI PD
You probably just need to clean the EGR valve and intake manifold. See if that helps. You can always change the EGR cooler since it's a separate item that sits behind the intake manifold.
 

2002 Harv

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Cleveland area
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2004 TDI PD
So the EGR cooler bolts to the EGR valve and that bolts to the manefold.

Ok, so I'm gonna look for the best price on the EGR cooler and order all the related gaskets to clean the intake. What else should I buy/watch out for/repair while I'm at it?

John
 

Fortuna Wolf

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Apr 28, 2006
Location
Wilmington, NC
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI Auto Sedan
No, the EGR cooler bolts to the EGR flap which is connected to two tubes, one to the exhaust manifold the other to the intake manifold. The EGR valve is bolted onto the intake manifold. The EGR valve and intake can be cleaned, but the EGR cooler is broken. You can try to get it replaced under warranty but YMMV.
 

2002 Harv

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May 14, 2006
Location
Cleveland area
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2004 TDI PD
Fortuna Wolf said:
You can try to get it replaced under warranty but YMMV.
Yea, the local dealer says it's not part ot the engine. Go fig. I would assume that they don't consider the water pump and alternator as part of the engine too.:( My Jetta has 58K on it and they would cover it if the car was still under the basic warranty which it is not.

John
 

PDJetta

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Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
I think the powertrain is defined as the block and head all internals and the transaxle. Nothing bolt on is part of the powertrain. It may include the drive axles too. So the WP and alternator are not included. Not my definition, VW's. The owner's manual may say, but like Fortuna Wolf says, it can vary by dealer, since its so confusing to begin with.

--Nate
 

2002 Harv

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May 14, 2006
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Cleveland area
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2004 TDI PD
No doubt! Kinda piss poor attitude from VWOA.

Well. Gonna dive into this job. Maybe I should just delete it and put in a Roketchip?

John
 

Kirtwell

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Location
Tucson AZ
TDI
2004 and 2005 Golf
2002 Harv said:
No doubt! Kinda piss poor attitude from VWOA.

Well. Gonna dive into this job. Maybe I should just delete it and put in a Roketchip?

John

My EGR is deleted.....gone!!! Just talked to Rocketchip and I'm sending it off to get it reprogrammed. Can't wait:eek:
My 04 just passed 60K and the dealer said NO WAY are we covering that...so I took it off...made some nice caps to cover the intake and the exhaust....professionally machined:D

If anyone needs a set..Hollar and I'll send them to you for the cost of shipping...I'll probably make some extras for my TDI buddies.
 

2002 Harv

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May 14, 2006
Location
Cleveland area
TDI
2004 TDI PD
So I had talked to the dealer about my EGR cooler and they basicly said it's not going to be coverd under any warenty. So I have just been living with it. Last week we went to Mass. and back (500mi each way) Durring the trip I got the check engine light (04 PD). My friend Jeff read the code, and sure enough it was low EGR flow.
I started pricing EGR coolers last week. I went into the dealer to pickup some touchup paint I had ordered and asked them how much one was for giggles. He cut me a brake and quoted me around 350$. He said I should check with service to see if they would warrenty it. I walked in and once again pled my case. This time they said they should be able to warrenty it. I said great, let's do it. They called me today and said VW will not cover it and the part is 450. I stayed calm and told them I was quoted 350 for the part when I was about to do it myself. They changed the price and since I'm sick this week I said go ahead and do it.
I called VW to complane about the switch and the lack of coverage and the dealer saying they could "probably" get it covered. I do all my own work and would have done this job too.
I told VW this is heavly influencing our decision to by an 08 Passat TDi or Tourag TDi

John
 

roadhard1960

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Joined
Feb 1, 2004
Location
Covington, Ga.
TDI
2003 Jetta wagon GLS 5 speed
My egr was goofed up when I cleaned my intake. No errors before I removed the intake but I do not know if I got solvent into the rubber gasket or something else. When I attached the MityVac pump to it, I could not get the valve to stroke. I put the car back together and it started with the engine light. VagCom showed the same error as yours. I will buy a new egr sometime.
 

2002 Harv

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May 14, 2006
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Cleveland area
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2004 TDI PD
Fortuna Wolf said:
2002 Harv, the part is $307 on Impex. Shop around damnit! I'll sell you one for $375!
I seem to have a hard time finding a EGR cooler in Impex's site. All I find are gasgets and stuff. The last time someone had the part # I found it and it was 407$.
I bought my car from P. Southerland in Willmington NC! A silver 04 wagon.

John
 

DirtRoadTDI

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Aug 19, 2003
Location
Kansas
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NB 1998 Black
What about changing to the Euro EGR exhaust pipe that Dieselgeek has? It's $89 and it looks like a direct replacement. I'm in the middle of cleaning my cooler and thinking that the switch might be more cost effective and would maintain the function of the EGR.
 

n171cd

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 15, 2003
Location
Bergen County, NJ
TDI
Jetta, 2003, Silver
Sometimes my 04 Jetta with 57K on it would start, sometimes it wouldn't. Got up to the dealer. They told me it was the EGR all gunked up and the intake manifolds needed to be cleaned. A little over 700 bucks. Don't know if the fix worked yet, haven't been able to pick up the car.
 

2002 Harv

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May 14, 2006
Location
Cleveland area
TDI
2004 TDI PD
Even though I'm not satisfied about how VW and the dealer handled my warenty issue, I will say they are speedy and seem to be competent. They say I should get my TDi back tomorow as the new EGR cooler will be here today.

John
 

Fortuna Wolf

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Apr 28, 2006
Location
Wilmington, NC
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI Auto Sedan
2002 Harv, sorry, I had a brain fart. its 407 on Impex. VW should really have a lawsuit filed against them for this.
 

mrGutWrench

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Joined
Aug 29, 2002
Location
Carrboro, NC
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon, 5-speed, 563K Miles (July '23)
2002 Harv said:
So I had talked to the dealer about my EGR cooler (snip but much info on dealer and VWOA farting around on warranty)
__. I'd call EPA Enforcement Division. There's an "Emissions Warranty" on emission control items for the vehicle. Or maybe call VWOA first and ask them if they want a complaint about a failed emissions controlled devices in EPA's files (if ya know what I mean ;) ). FerPete'sF*kkinSake, if this isn't an emissions item, what is? The d*mned thing wouldn't even be there (oh please don't thow me in dat briar patch) if it weren't for the emissions regs.

__. If VWOA doesn't promise to pony up on the spot, get the name of the Enforcement office you talk to at EPA and his direct phone number -- I'm sure that a fair number of people around here would like to talk to him (EPA has the authority to order VWOA to refund repairs if the emissions warranty should have been honored but wasn't).
'
 

mrGutWrench

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Joined
Aug 29, 2002
Location
Carrboro, NC
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon, 5-speed, 563K Miles (July '23)
Fortuna Wolf said:
2002 Harv, sorry, I had a brain fart. its 407 on Impex. VW should really have a lawsuit filed against them for this.
__. Lawsuit not necessary. An EPA Enforcement Action on Emission Warranty (or maybe even just the threat of one) will do just fine! See my other post.
'
 

2002 Harv

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May 14, 2006
Location
Cleveland area
TDI
2004 TDI PD
How long does the emition waranty last? They said they would have covered it if my car had less than (I think) 50K on it. I felt that it is part of the engine since it doesn't run properly without it (that's what I was going for).
But no dice.

John
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
I think the Emissions Warranty may be 100,000 miles. It should be spelled out on the (US) Code of Federal Regulations. I found the section, its 40 CFR (Environment), Chapter 1, Part 86, "CONTROL OF EMISSIONS FROM NEW AND IN-USE HIGHWAY VEHICLES AND ENGINES". The site is so busy, I can't get the page to load. But as far as VW is concerned, they have a loophole. See below:

The VW emissions warranty reads that for a defective component to be replaced under it, the covered VW HAS TO FAIL AN EMISSIONS TEST required in the jurisdiction where registered. And the test failure has to be attributable to the failed part. My mother went through with this on her TDI a while back (I think a failed GP triggered the CEL), and in Northern Virginia diesel cars are exempt from emissions system testing (although gasoline cars must have tests every two years), so there is no emissions warranty for TDIs registered in Northern Virginia. So, if an emissions component fails, (the EGR cooler) and causes a CEL because coolant plugs up its exhaust passages, and increases NOx above Federal limits, and causes coolant loss (so it must be fixed), the 50 K mile bumper-to-bumper warranty is in effect only.

Now, if it were a gasoline-powered VW registered in Northern Virginia and had say 80,000 miles on it and the EGR valve stuck closed and the car failed an emissions inspection, VW would cover the repair:mad: Now, if the same car was registered in Lynchburg, Virginia, and had the same failure that caused drivability problems (pre-ignition possibily) the repair would NOT be covered because there are no vehicle emissions testing requirements there (Not all of Virginia is subject to vehicle emissions testing requirements, its only "Air quailty non-attainment" areas). See how wishywashy this is!

--Nate
 

mrGutWrench

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Joined
Aug 29, 2002
Location
Carrboro, NC
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon, 5-speed, 563K Miles (July '23)
PDJetta said:
I think the Emissions Warranty may be 100,000 miles. It should be spelled out on the (US) Code of Federal Regulations. I found the section, its 40 CFR (Environment), Chapter 1, Part 86, "CONTROL OF EMISSIONS FROM NEW AND IN-USE HIGHWAY VEHICLES AND ENGINES". (snip)
__. Yes, you're right about the items in your post, Nate, but there's another factor. Even if items don't qualify for "emissions warranty", EPA can order an "Emissions Defect" and demand a recall (repairs at VW's expense on *all* cars) if there are enough complaints. If EPA gets a complaint about a problem with an emission component, they often "encourage" the mfr to fix it under the warranty -- even if they could weasel out of it -- rather than having the whole thing escalate to an emission recall. That's why I suggested having a talk with EPA Enforcement staff rather than just asking the dealer for emissions warranty.

__. And, if they go to recall later, VW has to refund your repairs made before the recall was ordered, so -- even if you have to repair out of your own pocket now -- keep your receipts and encourage everyone you hear about with a similar problem to log a failure notice with EPA Enforcement.
'
 

2002 Harv

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Cleveland area
TDI
2004 TDI PD
Reading this I get the feeling that if my PD failed an emition test due to the check engine light being on then VW would have had to pay (maybe). Kinda sucks anyway, Ohio tests every 2 years and because on our Jetta being an 04, it's not due till 08. Strange that when I regestered it they didn't make me get an e-check. Maybe since it was still young. I would have had to drive for the next year and a half with the egr cooler leaking and cloged to get them to pony up.
Oh well. This was the first time I have ever had anyone work on my car (except body work, allignment ect.) boy that was a lot of money.

John
 
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