Amsoil In this Thread only

Which AMSOIL?


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BEN721364

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I responded to a post that quoed marketing verbiage from a manufacturer or blender and didn't (as I recall) mention specs. of the product. That's what I call hype. I don't have an axe to grind with any oil company, nor do I worship any. <BBG>

What is the exception you are taking? Amsoil recommends the same oil specs as VW. Without some additional, specific, information, few will take this seriously.

The use of API truck oils in PDs has been done for the past 7 years without issue.
 

Bob_Fout

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I responded to a post that quoed marketing verbiage from a manufacturer or blender and didn't (as I recall) mention specs. of the product. That's what I call hype. I don't have an axe to grind with any oil company, nor do I worship any. <BBG>
Product information is hype when it isn't true. What's specifically is Amsoil saying that doesn't match what the OEM does?
 

BEN721364

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Product information is hype when it isn't true. What's specifically is Amsoil saying that doesn't match what the OEM does?
You seem to think that we have an argument. I don't. Without going back to look for the post that I reacted to I don't even know if it was Amzoil 'hype'. I stand by my statement. Agree or disagree....
 

SuburbanTDI

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There are a lot of failures with full 505.01 usage and they still shredded themselves.

So is that a no you won't show me these said failures?

I'd also like to see evidence of these "a lot of failures with full 505.01". Shredded even? Boy that must be some photo-link.

But it is at least nice to see you recognize that a difference exists between VW certified oils that are "full 505.01" and those like the marketers from Amsoil and the like, that sell other corporations refined products blended to the super-secret house recipe, that are not "full 505.01".
 

TooSlick

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The vast majority of people ARE running VW 505.01 spec oils in the PD engines, due to the dire warnings from VW about using anything else. I think you'll find that most of the pre-mature wear also occurred in PD's running the "correct" oil - even with strict adherence to the maintenance schedule.

I still think this issue is more attributable to a marginal design and suspect metallurgy in
some lots of camshafts. However the 505.01 oils have certainly not proven to be stellar
in all respects. I also believe some PD engines will wear out too soon no matter what Uber Lube is used in them.

TS
 

BEN721364

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Tell us more about these engines that have been found to have oil related premature engine wear, please.

The vast majority of people ARE running VW 505.01 spec oils in the PD engines, due to the dire warnings from VW about using anything else. I think you'll find that most of the pre-mature wear also occurred in PD's running the "correct" oil - even with strict adherence to the maintenance schedule.

I still think this issue is more attributable to a marginal design and suspect metallurgy in
some lots of camshafts. However the 505.01 oils have certainly not proven to be stellar
in all respects. I also believe some PD engines will wear out too soon no matter what Uber Lube is used in them.

TS
 

SuburbanTDI

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The vast majority of people ARE running VW 505.01 spec oils in the PD engines, due to the dire warnings from VW about using anything else.
TS

Actually, those "Dire" warning also came from Amsoil - at least they did in the past. This was written by Amsoil around 2005, before Amsoil had a product labeled "505.01", a product which is not on the certified lists noted below by Amsoil:




European automobile manufacturers design vehicles to use specific high quality lubricants with specific properties and additives.

"Europeans build their cars and impose higher requirements on the type of oil than we are used to here in North America," remarks an oil industry source.

"On top of that, manufacturers have introduced their own standards, most of which start with the ACEA standards, and go further in specific tests to solve specific problems and address specific issues."

European vehicle manufacturers keep tight control over which lubricants they allow to be used in their vehicles. Inner-company bureaucracies are in charge of keeping the approved lubricant lists up-to-date with the latest requirements, and a few companies apply some of the regulations to North America. European aftermarket service stations must stock different lubricants for different automobile brands. Sometimes different models put out by the same manufacturer require different lubricants.

Do-it-yourselfers are less prevalent in Europe. Qualified repair shops, franchised or tightly controlled by the vehicle manufacturers in order to dictate the type of oil being used, typically perform most of the oil changes.


Although synthetic motor oils are generally of higher quality than conventional oils, not all synthetics can meet the stringent European specifications. Just because it's a synthetic doesn't mean it's a top tier product.

"Shop owners must keep in mind that there are numerous special requirements for European vehicles"

Although it's easy to assume that the more expensive the vehicle, the better quality the lubricant it needs, that's not always the case. For example, the mid-priced Volkswagen TDI requires a very specific, high spec lubricant.
Heck, even AndyH the old Amsoil dealer who use to post here once wrote that VW was well within its rights, even responsibilities, to demand use of a VW certified oil. AndyH at the time was commenting on a lawsuit from the "jiffylube" style industry attacking VW's warranty requirement to use VW505.01. That was also before AndyH had a competing label to market.
 
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Bob_Fout

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You seem to think that we have an argument. I don't. Without going back to look for the post that I reacted to I don't even know if it was Amzoil 'hype'. I stand by my statement. Agree or disagree....
Post #1523. Without specifics there's not much of a statement is it? Some specifics may include:

"I don't agree with Amsoil allowing extended drains"
"I don't agree with Amsoil not being officially tested"
"I don't agree with their testing or marketing methods"

Any of those?
 

Bob_Fout

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Tell us more about these engines that have been found to have oil related premature engine wear, please.
Just start reading about PD cam failures starting from 2004 or 2005 and later.... you've been here since 2008 and not seen the years of PD cam failures.
 

TooSlick

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There is a whole thread here that's dedicated to documenting PD cam & lifter issues. If you review these posts, you'll see that a majority of people are using VW 505.01 oils. In some cases these vehicles were also dealer serviced.

Amsoil did the responsible thing when the PD's hit North America. At that time they did not formulate a VW 505.01 compliant oil and made NO Amsoil product recommendation for the application. So I honestly don't understand the long cut and paste above, and what the point of it all is....

TS
 

milehighassassin

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I can find an Amsoil email they sent me when I bought my TDi PD in 2005.

Basically it said they didn't have a product for it, they are working on but cannot recommend any of their products at this time.

They later brought out their European car formula, formulated for the 505.01 rating. I used it and tested with UOA's. My car was fine until my egr hung open. Had a uoa come back flagged but not dangerous or worrisome. I corrected the egr and have had no issues since.

I am now using DEO which is not approved but worked great, probably better.

I would still like to read or see about all those other Amsoil failures. Seriously! Not to argue but I would like to read about them.


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If DEO does fine I wonder how HDD would do as it has higher TBN package?
Any thoughts?

I have a customer that used the VW recomened oil and had a cam failure. I called Amsoil and ask if the HDD would work there answer was it is not the recommended oil. My thinking we recomend this and other oil for flat tappet cam failure. I would think one of those oils would work Flat Tappet and Camshaft Lobe Lubrication (pdf).


Note: Amsoil has been making the first synthetic oil since 1972 all other are just catching up HYPE I don't think so.

This is what happens to HYPE http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article001398592.cfm?x=bfmW6PM,b8m4PJ68

Bill
 
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TooSlick

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Bill,

The Series 3000, 5w-30 is too thin for the PD application, due to the very high pressures between the cam lobes & lifters. The API, CI-4+ and CJ-4 rated 5w-40's and 10w-40's are significantly thicker than a VW 505.01 spec oil. This is one reason why they work well in this application.

I actually think the best Amsoil product for the VW PD's is their 10w-40/AMO, which is specifically formulated & recommended for flat tappet engines. It's even thicker than their
5w-40 in terms of high temp, high shear (HT/HS) viscosity and it's an older "CI-4+/SL" chemistry with higher additive treat levels. (1150 ppm of phosphorus and 1350 ppm of zinc).

TS
 
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Just thinking

I understand your points but I use the 3000 HDD 5w30 oil in my 2003 7.3 PSD and have never had a issue, also the oil does have a lot of Zinc & Phosphorus for the flat tappet cams. The new AEL is 5w30 and from what I understand the 2009 also needs cam protection as well.
Based on your thoughts the AMO is rated about the same as HDD, AME & ARO in additive packages.
Bill
 

40X40

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I understand your points but I use the 3000 HDD 5w30 oil in my 2003 7.3 PSD and have never had a issue, also the oil does have a lot of Zinc & Phosphorus for the flat tappet cams. The new AEL is 5w30 and from what I understand the 2009 also needs cam protection as well.
Based on your thoughts the AMO is rated about the same as HDD, AME & ARO in additive packages.
Bill

Please understand the every reference to Amsoil usage in ANY vehicle other than a TDI on this forum is a waste of your time and ours.

It matters not one whit how well (or poorly) Amsoil does in a non-TDI engine...... We are only concerned with TDIs here.

Perhaps you can correspond with Tooslick via PM instead of muddying the one thread that is allocated on here to your brand.
Tooslick has done a fine job here of providing clear information with a minimum of confusion and sales pressure.

Thanks for your consideration on this matter,

Bill
 
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Please understand the every reference to Amsoil usage in ANY vehicle other than a TDI on this forum is a waste of your time and ours.

It matters not one whit how well (or poorly) Amsoil does in a non-TDI engine...... We are only concerned with TDIs here.

Perhaps you can correspond with Tooslick via PM instead of muddying the one thread that is allocated on here to your brand.
Tooslick has done a fine job here of providing clear information with a minimum of confusion and sales pressure.

Thanks for your consideration on this matter,

Bill

I think you missed my point completely.

It is just a reference on how well it works in other applications & I wish Amsoil would have said I could use it in the TDI.
Bill
 

40X40

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If that motor has flat tappets then the info is relevant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If the flat tappets are in a TDI, yes. Otherwise NO. Look, there is plenty of TDI/Amsoil experience out there without dragging in every other engine in the universe. If the Amsoil dealer has TDI relevant info, post it. If not, why not leave the Amsoil selling to a dealer that DOES have TDI/Amsoil data???

Bill
 
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FYI I do have a TDI 2009 and the 2003 PSD as it states in my signature.

Also the flat tappet reference implies it can with stand harsh environments like the TDI does as well.

I am a dealer.
Bill
 

SuburbanTDI

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I think the Amsoil representative makes as good a point as any other Amsoil dealer to recommend 3000 HDD 5w30 oil, the new AEL 5w30 AME or ARO for the newer PD and common rail TDI diesel engines.

Some would prefer to stick with the VW505.01 & VW507.00 which Amsoil has never had any of their oils certified as.

Certainly though TDI owners are free to choose from either the Amsoil offerings or any of the Certified VW505/507 oils offered widely elsewhere.
 
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TooSlick

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Bill,

The VW 507.00 oils like AEL aren't the best choice for the PD engines either. The results with those have been very mixed. I'm very familiar with the additive chemistry of all these Amsoil products and the Series 3000 is too thin for the PD engines, period. Most of your larger diesel engines have rollerized valveltrains and the results simply don't translate to the TDI. It really is a somewhat unique application with regards to lube requirements.

TS
 
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Bill,

The VW 507.00 oils like AEL aren't the best choice for the PD engines either. The results with those have been very mixed. I'm very familiar with the additive chemistry of all these Amsoil products and the Series 3000 is too thin for the PD engines, period. Most of your larger diesel engines have rollerized valveltrains and the results simply don't translate to the TDI. It really is a somewhat unique application with regards to lube requirements.

TS
Thanks for that explanation.
Bill
 

TooSlick

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Bill,

I've been following this board for 12 years and have probably reviewed several hundred oil analyses from TDI's. Folks have tried all these things you've considered doing and we now know what works and what doesnt. For example, the VW 506.01 Spec oils were tried in the PD engines when they first came out. This is a thin, 0w-30 oil that's formulated to improve fuel efficiency. It has lots of ZDDP as well as a fair amount of moly. There were some horrible results with this very thin oil in the PD's, as well as in some earlier variants of the TDI engine. By contrast, results with the 5w-40, API spec diesel oils (Mobil 1/TDT, Amsoil DEO, Shell Rotella T, Schaeffers, etc), in the PD's have been overwhelmingly
excellent.

You're certainly welcome to experiment and try different types of oils in these engines. But I try to limit those experiments to my personal vehicles & equipment.

TS
 

SuburbanTDI

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You're certainly welcome to experiment and try different types of oils in these engines. But I try to limit those experiments to my personal vehicles & equipment.

TS

I'd agree that experimental use of Non-VW505/507 oils should be approached with ample caveats and never recommended to others, experiments should be limited to personal vehicles and equipment.

However you, like every other Amsoil dealer I can recall, have also gone off the reservation and recommended commercial products that not even Amsoil suggests for this application.

As an Amsoil agent and commercial salesman are you warranting the use of, and fully indemnifying the TDI PD owners that follow your professional recommendation from just yesterday: "I actually think the best Amsoil product for the VW PD's is their 10w-40/AMO"

It's a legitimate question to ask, whose responsible when you, a professional representative and agent of Amsoil, push and sell a product for an application and it destroys an engine down the road?
 
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Bob_Fout

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I'd agree that experimental use of Non-VW505/507 oils should be approached with ample caveats and never recommended to others, experiments should be limited to personal vehicles and equipment.
However you, like every other Amsoil dealer I can recall, have also gone off the reservation and recommended commercial products that not even Amsoil suggests for this application.
As an Amsoil agent and commercial salesman are you warranting the use of, and fully indemnifying the TDI PD owners that follow your professional recommendation: "I actually think the best Amsoil product for the VW PD's is their 10w-40/AMO"
It's a legitimate question to ask, whose responsible when you, a professional representative and agent of Amsoil, push and sell a product for an application and it destroys an engine down the road?
No such relationship exists. Amsoil dealers are independent, not Amsoil employees.

What happens when TDT or T6 destroys an engine based on recommendations on this site? :confused:
 

SuburbanTDI

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No such relationship exists. Amsoil dealers are independent, not Amsoil employees.
What happens when TDT or T6 destroys an engine based on recommendations on this site? :confused:




So the Amsoil warranty is useless?

Using what's recommended by your Amsoil professional is at your own risk?
 

BEN721364

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Post #1523. Without specifics there's not much of a statement is it? Some specifics may include:

"I don't agree with Amsoil allowing extended drains"
"I don't agree with Amsoil not being officially tested"
"I don't agree with their testing or marketing methods"

Any of those?
Post # 1523 was mine. I repeat, "I recommend that you be guided by the vehicle manufacturer's recommendations with respect to lubricant types and specifications; rather than hype from a lubricant manufacturer or blender. VW includes this information in the materials that came with the car."

It appears that you advocate disregarding the vehicle manufacturer's recommendations/admonishments with respect to lubricant 'certifications' and instead advocate that folks be guided by advertising copy and brochure hype from lubricant marketers. Fair characterization? If so, I respectfully disagree. While API (as one example) certification entails some expense, it (and or others) is the price of admission to the sandlot, IMO. It's not that I "distrust" marketers of non-certified products...
 

Bob_Fout

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So the Amsoil warranty is useless?

Using what's recommended by your Amsoil professional is at your own risk?
The Amsoil warranty is not useless. Follow your OEM recommendations if you want that (AFL in a PD). Don't expect them to warranty a factory mechanical issue though, even if you used the oil specified by the OEM.

What I mean is this: Say you use Castrol TXT 505.01 [or other 505.01 oil] in your PD, and have cam issues at 100K miles. Neither VW nor Castrol [or other company] will do anything about it. Out of factory warranty and it's not a lubricant failure.

Same situation with an API oil like TDT, T6, et al. Neither the lubricant manufacturer or the automotive manufacturer have any obligation.

Since 2004 or 2005 we've seen how CI-4+ and CJ-4 oils won't kill a PD cam, and may actually be better than 505.01. This is not news to anyone here. AMO is similar to the old Delvac 1 and CI-4+ TDT.
 

TooSlick

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Amsoils recommended product for the PD's is their 5w-40 European Formula, which uses a VW 502.00/505.01 additive chemistry. However as we've seen, a fair number of PD engines still wear out pre-maturely with these oils. Since the vast majority of PD engines are now out of warranty, it makes sense to try some of these HD diesel oils. I wouldn't characterize it as experimenting, due to the number of people already doing this with excellent long term results.

I've had excellent reports from users of the Amsoil 10w-40 in earlier TDI's going back over ten years. I fully expect it will work as well in the PD's, given it's physical/chemical properties (HT/HS viscosity, ZDDP level, low volatility, etc)

TS
 
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