Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

If it's really cold out, I preheat the car while it's still plugged in.

El Dobro said:

If it's really cold out, I preheat the car while it's still plugged in.

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That's a great feature on a lot of EVs and PHEVs! Unfortunately our Fiat's telematics were only good for 3 years after the date of purchase, so we don't have any remote access. That said, just turn the key on and it starts blowing out heat immediately, even when plugged in. So I'll just go turn it on while I make my morning coffee.

Some HEVs and PHEVs also have remote heat on the key - I know the Volt does, the Prius Prime (which doesn't have telematics at all in lower trims) does, and the Pacifica Hybrid does.

And, some also have the ability to schedule heat through their infotainment.

Thanks for the responses. I knew that resistance heating was a power hog. I was trying to figure out if cost and complexity of the heat pump system was worth the added cost.

I use heated seats and steering wheels when possible and I am used to TDI taking longer to blow good heat than my commute is long. So preheating before I drive and only using for window defrosting and minimal heating is a realistic possibility for me.

I am constantly looking the ads for used eGolfs for a deal and this is a big deciding factor between possible cars.

Jason

SilverGhost said:

Thanks for the responses. I knew that resistance heating was a power hog. I was trying to figure out if cost and complexity of the heat pump system was worth the added cost.

I use heated seats and steering wheels when possible and I am used to TDI taking longer to blow good heat than my commute is long. So preheating before I drive and only using for window defrosting and minimal heating is a realistic possibility for me.

I am constantly looking the ads for used eGolfs for a deal and this is a big deciding factor between possible cars.

Jason

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I haven't really found any (what I consider to be) reasonably priced e-Golfs. Availability is low and prices are very high compared to similar EVs (Nissan LEAFs, used 500es, even some new Chevy Bolts (comparing new to new). keep your eye out though; the e-Golf is a good car and you get very nice VW driving dynamics.

bhtooefr said:

Some HEVs and PHEVs also have remote heat on the key - I know the Volt does, the Prius Prime (which doesn't have telematics at all in lower trims) does, and the Pacifica Hybrid does.

And, some also have the ability to schedule heat through their infotainment.

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Yea, instead of signing on, I just hit the button on the remote.

SilverGhost said:

I was trying to figure out if cost and complexity of the heat pump system was worth the added cost.

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I don't see the heat pump as adding too much complexity vs. the standard A/C. If its just like a residential heat pump then there is very little difference between an A/C unit and a heat pump. Just a reversing valve and some extra refrigerant piping.

Of course....that said electric resistance heat should be more reliable than your car's A/C! And in my part of the world its a lot easier to live with a car with broken A/C than no heat.

EV's with a Heat Pump have reversing valves, and a 2nd condenser mounted in the HVAC case so they can dehumidify the air.

-J

turbocharged798 said:

with all the drawbacks of EVs I do not see how it is "better" than my current setup.

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Probably because you've already made up your mind that there isn't an EV out there than can possibly measure up to your diesels, so you "cherry pick" reasons to confirm that bias.

In all honesty, I used to look at EV's with the same glass-half-empty view as well...that is, until one became my daily driver. Sure, EV's have their shortcomings but they also have their advantages - if you are willing to experience them.

Well I am not against them, but there absolutely is NOT an EV that is out there right now that can do what my TDI can do, so he has a point.

I can afford to put a measly $5 of fuel in a car to get to and from work every day. And this is a car that, all in, I have about $5000 in total, and have already driven it 140k miles, and will easily drive it 140k more, and it will continue doing what it does same as it always has.

When I can buy a used eGolf for $1500, have it go 100 miles a day or 700+ miles on a fill up whenever I feel like it, and do so beyond the half million mile marker, I will be first in line to get one.

As it stands now, such a vehicle simply does not exist. Even the mighty Telsa (which I do not like anyway) that costs more than my house cannot claim this.

In the future, if the technology improves, which I think it will, then you'll have a better chance of widespread acceptance. Cost is a big factor. Poor urbanites can afford to keep a clapped out 200k mile Sentra on the road, they can park it on the street wherever they want, and if they do not drive a lot anyway, the fuel/PM costs are negligible. Yet these are the "ideal" EV owners.

But as I have stated before, until the populace trends towards smaller, more efficient cars in general, it is a hard sell to get them to make the leap forward to an EV. If a Silverado is A, and a Cruze is B, and a Spark is C, then an EV is D+. We cannot get people to get past A. When people are at C in large numbers, and demanding more, then it will change.

But with cheap fuel, we are largely stuck on A.

Although, part of what Tesla's trying to do is come to, if not the Silverado owners, the X6 and GLE Coupe owners where they are, with an electric.

bhtooefr said:

Although, part of what Tesla's trying to do is come to, if not the Silverado owners, the X6 and GLE Coupe owners where they are, with an electric.

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Agreed. And as Tesla's model portfolio evolves, the trickle down plan as it looks to be, perhaps the models that us mere peons could afford to buy will become available. However, by that time the other manufacturers will likely have more offerings and in some cases maybe less "goofy" ones at that. The electric versions of the Golf, 500, etc. are far more appealing to me as far as looks and ergonomics are concerned than the rolling 1980s video game Teslas.

Maybe Tesla will concede to more established normalcy in their future products, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel completely. At least their power window switches (which look to be taken from the ChryCo or MB parts bin) seem normal enough. Surprised they didn't put some touchpad on each door, LOL.

A touchpad on each door?

C'mon, you know it'd be touch zones on the center touch screen.

And, yeah, that is my biggest complaint about Tesla - they're designing for people whose primary interaction methods with technology are through touchscreens. I, on the other hand, pair keyboards to my phone because I like buttons.

Brian, my dad drives to at least two power plants a day from Oakville. Labadie, Sioux, Rush island, or Meramec. He is putting close to 200 miles a day on his leaf. He hit the charging stations a lot but has yet to charge at home.

If Car Doc had a 220v plug for you, you could probably pull it off. Also, my dad’s most recent estimates range was 138 miles. I have the picture to prove it. He says they are pretty accurate. So even then you wouldn’t need to charge during the day.

Of course, I understand range isn’t the only consideration.

I'm also pretty sure Brian drives at speeds that are not conducive to range, though (or even, speeds that some short-range EVs like the LEAF cannot do sometimes)...

I would rather walk than drive a Leaf. And yes, I do drive at higher speeds. I hit 100+ pretty much every day. Open Interstate is awesome to let the TDI stretch its legs. We cannot even park on our lot here, let alone near any type of charging station.

Speaking of which, drove the Beetle today for its first full post untooefing drive. It pulls like gangbusters now (no more clutch slip) but the crappy tires it has quickly spoiled that fun. Got scary around 115, these Chinapops have to go. That and the awful headlights. I am so spoiled by my Golf's glass Ecodes.

oilhammer said:

Well I am not against them, but there absolutely is NOT an EV that is out there right now that can do what my TDI can do, so he has a point.

I can afford to put a measly $5 of fuel in a car to get to and from work every day. And this is a car that, all in, I have about $5000 in total, and have already driven it 140k miles, and will easily drive it 140k more, and it will continue doing what it does same as it always has.

When I can buy a used eGolf for $1500, have it go 100 miles a day or 700+ miles on a fill up whenever I feel like it, and do so beyond the half million mile marker, I will be first in line to get one.

(

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Other than his making the case against EV's by stretching the extremes about average mpg's and kWh rates he's paying, I wasn't at all questioning his reasoning. When I'm going on a road trip; I'm grabbing the keys to my TDI.

We can always convince ourselves a car is wrong for us if we focus only on it's disadvantages. I once owned an Audi S4 wagon. It had a loud, aftermarket exhaust and was a pig on fuel. It didn't come anywhere close to 53 mpg, and I owned it at a time when 91 octane was approaching CDN $5.00 per gallon. That didn't stop me from loving it.

I'm not asking him to buy an EV - only to keep an open mind.

Oilerlord said:

Other than his making the case against EV's by stretching the extremes about average mpg's and kWh rates he's paying, I wasn't at all questioning his reasoning. When I'm going on a road trip; I'm grabbing the keys to my TDI.
We can always convince ourselves a car is wrong for us if we focus only on it's disadvantages. I once owned an Audi S4 wagon. It had a loud, aftermarket exhaust and was a pig on fuel. It didn't come anywhere close to 53 mpg, and I owned it at a time when 91 octane was approaching CDN $5.00 per gallon. That didn't stop me from loving it.
I'm not asking him to buy an EV - only to keep an open mind.

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Bolded text is exactly why ICE hybrids will be the solution. They are flexible, can have more cargo space due to smaller batteries and negate the need for owning a highway and a city car. Wouldn't it be nice if the TDI had both plug-in and regenerative braking technology on it?

RabbitGTI said:

Bolded text is exactly why ICE hybrids will be the solution.

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The solution to what? I wasn't aware there was a problem.

Oilerlord said:

The solution to what? I wasn't aware there was a problem.

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The solution to having one vehicle for multiple uses. I have to haul lots of stuff and right now I'm doing up to 900 miles a week on the interstate, sometimes under time pressure. Having a TDI Passat with huge cargo capacity, a small battery recharged by plug in or regen for short trips would be an ideal vehicle.

RabbitGTI said:

Bolded text is exactly why ICE hybrids will be the solution. They are flexible, can have more cargo space due to smaller batteries and negate the need for owning a highway and a city car. Wouldn't it be nice if the TDI had both plug-in and regenerative braking technology on it?

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Why take on the extra weight and complexity? I'd much prefer EVs with faster charging capabilities (800 volts) and a robust world-wide charging network. 200 miles of range added in 15 minutes of charging plus 300 miles of total range should be adequate for even the most dedicated of road warriors. If you can't stop for 15 minutes every three hours, then I feel sorry for your bladder and circulatory system. You have to remember that unlike pumping gas where you can't walk away from the car, the EV charging process (Tesla, specifically) requires approximately 10 seconds of driver interaction and the car charges while you do something else like eat, pee, run errands or walk around.

Some would suggest that EVs should have enough battery for 700 miles of range. My same argument applies... why take on the extra weight and complexity if you have a charging network similar to what I described above?

Porsche is working on 800 volt EVs, ChargePoint has already developed an 800 volt, 350 kW multi-vehicle charging system, and Tesla has indicated that Supercharger version 3 will also be in that range. These ideas aren't far-fetched and I expect to see this stuff rolling out in the next few years.

On a similar note, Tesla's class 8 semi truck unveiling is coming up on October 26th. I'm wondering if this will also be the reveal for their Supercharger v3 system and higher voltage battery packs.

There is no added weight because ICE/hybrid has a smaller battery. As far as complexity goes, I'd add it for flexibility: Towing, freedom from finding charging station if I choose, less stress on power grid, not having to charge my car in an area that is relying on coal generation.... there are reasons. BTW, I can pee, fuel my TDI and get another cup of coffee in a lot less than 15 minutes I call it the "splash and go".

VeeDubTDI said:

I'd much prefer EVs with faster charging capabilities (800 volts) and a robust world-wide charging network. 200 miles of range added in 15 minutes of charging plus 300 miles of total range should be adequate for even the most dedicated of road warriors.

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That would fit most of our driving habits. We try to stop every two hours for at least a bio break. If they put chargers at more of the interstate rest stops, that would give us probably 75% of our charging needs while on road trips.

Here is a thought experiment. If the residents of the Florida Keys had a 100% electric car fleet as well as electric utility and emergency vehicles, everyone would be screwed. Flexibility is important because the current electric grid is not reliable and does not have enough capacity.

Grid capacity isn't much of an issue depending on what time the vehicle is charged.

Also, in an emergency, generators are often used anyway, and could be used for charging. And, you've often got issues getting liquid fuels, too, until you've got generators to run the pumps.

bhtooefr said:

Grid capacity isn't much of an issue depending on what time the vehicle is charged.

Also, in an emergency, generators are often used anyway, and could be used for charging. And, you've often got issues getting liquid fuels, too, until you've got generators to run the pumps.

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All very true, ain't an easy problem to solve. We are in a transitional stage and nobody knows what is going to happen, that is why I prefer flexibility.

RabbitGTI said:

Here is a thought experiment. If the residents of the Florida Keys had a 100% electric car fleet as well as electric utility and emergency vehicles, everyone would be screwed. Flexibility is important because the current electric grid is not reliable and does not have enough capacity.

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There aren't many people that keep there EVs discharged... so it's not like there would have been a surge in people charging their cars. They also had days to prepare and evacuate.

One new Tesla owner stationed at NAS Key West had just received his Model S a few days before Irma formed. He posted to Facebook with suggestions on what to do ~4 days before landfall. He made it out with no problem... drive right past all the people stranded at dry gas stations. The Superchargers were less than half-full until Atlanta.

The need for liquid fuels to be delivered south actually greatly hampered the evacuation. If Florida wasn't in desperate need for trucks to deliver fuel South they could have reverted the interstates to contraflow. EVs don't require much energy. There's enough surplus capacity on the FPL grid to provide enough energy to move 3M EVs 500 miles in 2 days.

The aftermath is where EV+PV really shines... with the grid down and fuel scarce the ability to be energy independent adds to resiliency.

I agree that PHEVs are a great solution that are largely unappreciated.

RabbitGTI said:

Here is a thought experiment. If the residents of the Florida Keys had a 100% electric car fleet as well as electric utility and emergency vehicles, everyone would be screwed. Flexibility is important because the current electric grid is not reliable and does not have enough capacity.

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Conversely, the evacuations across much of the state of Florida crippled the liquid fueling infrastructure for an entire week, causing people to run out of gas and get stranded while trying to evacuate. The power in most of Florida was only out during the storm and for some periods after. The areas without power were also without gas. Many people returned home several days later to find that many parts of the state still didn't have gas.

But I will agree that flexibility is important and that the current grid is in need of some major upgrades. Fortunately, I think the latter is beginning to happen. 100% electric won't happen for decades and will coincide with massive changes to the global transportation infrastructure. PHEVs are a great solution for a lot of people right now, but I will skip that step.

If people cannot outrun a massive storm moving at 10 MPH that was dominating the news for a week I have no sympathy, regardless of how your car is powered. I have relatives there. If you choose to live in an area that is prone to weather like this, you should have provisions in place to deal with it. Failure to plan is planning to fail.

The part that bothers me is how the old folks homes (and Florida is PACKED with those) were poorly managed. People that could not help themselves and are dependent on others should not have had to suffer like that. In what is, again, a known area for extreme hurricane possibility.

My aunt works at a large hospital outside Tampa, and was shocked how many people had no planning in place. She's lived there since the early '80s, so this was not as big of a crisis for her, despite everything that happened. She had her car full of gas, an extra jerry can full on hand, plenty of food and water and clothing and necessities. Common sense.

oilhammer said:

If people cannot outrun a massive storm moving at 10 MPH that was dominating the news for a week I have no sympathy, regardless of how your car is powered. I have relatives there. If you choose to live in an area that is prone to weather like this, you should have provisions in place to deal with it. Failure to plan is planning to fail.
The part that bothers me is how the old folks homes (and Florida is PACKED with those) were poorly managed. People that could not help themselves and are dependent on others should not have had to suffer like that. In what is, again, a known area for extreme hurricane possibility.
My aunt works at a large hospital outside Tampa, and was shocked how many people had no planning in place. She's lived there since the early '80s, so this was not as big of a crisis for her, despite everything that happened. She had her car full of gas, an extra jerry can full on hand, plenty of food and water and clothing and necessities. Common sense.

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Unfortunately, a lot of people in that region think they've already experienced extreme weather ("we've been through plenty of hurricanes") and are skeptical of the possibility that more extreme weather than their life experiences have shown them could happen in the future.

It doesn't help that state and federal leadership downplay the frequency of catastrophic weather events, making it seem less urgent for people to prepare for the worst.