Is Schaffer Oil Better ?

ALEX10

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I Have 2003 Tdi Jetta 60k On The Clock.changing The Oil Has Become A Challenge, On Which Oil To Use.what Is The Best Bang For The Buck? And What Is The Best For The Car? If I Went With Rotella, Is It Better To Go With Schaffer,:( Or Even Syntech? Also The Manual Says Change At 10k But Two Tell Me 5k. Help!!
 

tditom

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Alex- you've been here for about 5 days now and have started 4 threads, 3 of which are asking very basic questions that have been discussed ad nauseum and which will probably stir up unnecessary rehash. The point is that there are as many opinions as you can imagine on these subjects, and asking them again will only stir up the arguments all over again. Please, do us all a favor and use the search function that you are prompted to when you go to start a new thread. We'll all be better off for it. I suggest that before you start a new thread you spend the next week searching and reading about the subjects that interest you. At the end of that time, if you have a new question, pick the thread that is most relevant, and ask your question in the context of that thread. Whaddya say?
 

turkeyssr

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'03? -> stick with Rotella

I would stick with Rotella T because it's readily available at Wally World and is more than adequate to deal with diesel engines. As for changing at 10k, well, I change my oil at 5k because it's not *that* expensive and personally I feel 10k is just too long. Also, Wally World (at least in my area), now carries the TDI FRAM oil filters, much to my surprise. I prefer to order them from Impex because they're cheaper, though.

I'm trying to find solid evidence as to why the PD 505.1 oil is ANY different than any other Diesel oil. It's not that I don't believe VW, I would just like a definition. I'm just curious as mine is an '03, as yours is, so the PD type oil is of no pressing concern to me (yet). :)
 

BKmetz

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To answer your question, there is no best oil. Pick a brand a stick with it. 10K oil changes work just fine, anything less and you are throwing your money away.

Thank you tditom.
 

ALEX10

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Tom Sorry That The Threads I Posted Over The Past Few Day's Seem Over Asked . I Have Read Everything A Could Find And Come Up Short. Just Trying To Find The Best Opinions To Make The Right Decision.i Wont Step On Our Toes If That What You Are Saying.also I Dont Find This Interesting Thank You.
 

wny_pat

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Better than what? Schaffers makes a very good product and there are guys running it in their TDIs. You can see some of the analysis of the used Schaffers oil ran in TDIs over at Bob is the Oil Guy. Check it out. I personally think there are better oils for our TDIs. Use the search function and then decide what is best for your situation. If you ask here what is best bang for the buck, you will get 10 different answers and only get more confused.

And just who is telling you to change your oil at 5k? I think everybody here is doing 10k OCIs. Those getting their oils analyzed are even going much higher.
 
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LurkerMike

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I used to drink Schaffer's beer... it was cheap, tasted like water and if I had all day to chug down a cooler full of them, I might get a buzz...

I wonder if their oil is similar to their beer? I might have to try a quart sometime...

Currently the ELF CRV 0w30 506.01 oil is "the best" TDI oil going bar none... I like Amsoil products because I have been using them for years and when Amsoil gets a 506.01, I will try it... currently I have Amsoil European in my 2000 TDI and I have noticed no difference in it from the previous 100% dealer Castroil oil changes that came in it. I hope to pick up a couple of MPG when I try the Elf...

I think the real question is what oil is the second best and third best because the ELF CRV beats them all for only $13 per quart! ;~P
 

wjdell

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I was reading about that Schaffer and I think if you look the specs are conflicting - Andy H and a few others should check it out. They say this 9000 5W 40 can be used in anything - it has all specs except 506.01 and 507 - but all the rest. I was under the impression that conflicts in additive packages prevented this.
 
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DrewD

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Rotella is fine for 10,000 mile interval or 1 year, whichever comes first.
 

LurkerMike

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What is the best color of paint for a Jetta?

Red? Looks good but might get more speeding tickets?

Black? Looks cool but hard to keep looking clean?

White? Cooler in summer?

Oil is no different of a subject to discuss... there are advantages and disadvantages to several different brands... I like to add a splash of TCP to my oil... Texaco used to put TCP in their premium fuel before the unleaded age...
 

AndyH

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Let's Look...

Maybe if we can get some info together on Schaeffer's 5W-40 we can show Alex how to evaluate the available products.

In general, Schaeffer makes synthetic blends and uses molybdenum as an extreme pressure additive. They may have gone to a 'synthetic' of some type in the 5W-40 (which could mean all Group III, or some other variation of GIII, IV and/or V).

This is one of the companies that uses the Timken Extreme Pressure test (designed for gear lube and EP grease) to market their products. The problem with this 'test' is that it's not designed for engine oil, engine oil in general doesn't use EP additives because engines don't need them. Both Schaeffer and Royal Purple reps crank on the machine until the metal is digging away and smoking. Impressive demonstration for a farm show, but useless for demonstrating real oil performance. If you ever come up on this test by an oil or additive vendor, bring out a little bottle of Head and Shoulders shampoo (smells better) or bleach or phosphoric acid (or some Coke). These will beat any oil on the market in this 'test'...

[For more info on the use of the Timken EP test, reference this article from Machinery Lubrication magazine, written by Mr. Ludwig, Chief Chemist/Tech Director of Schaeffer. From the article: "Any test results that are obtained by the use of this test method have been found not to correlate with results obtained during field service."] http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=616

Who wants to post a link to the company's spec sheet for the 5W-40? The MSDS? Who wants to contact the company and ask whether the oil is a blend or synthetic (and whether it's Group III only, or contains other synthetic base oil)?

That should be a start. Then we can look at the specs and see if it looks ok or if there appear to be conflicts.

Andy
 

AndyH

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http://www.schaefferoil.com/msds.html

Per their tech data: Supreme 9000 5W-40 is a Group III product with somewhere between 20 and 25% PAO.

This oil should be fine for a full 10,000 mile or 1 year oil change interval in a 2003 and earlier TDI. It appears to meet VW's requirement of a 'synthetic 5W-40'.

Normally the reps deal in 'quantity' orders - $200 or $250 minimum. You can find a list of retail stores from the locator on their website http://www.schaefferoil.com/dealer_locator.html. You can also find dealers at the 'Bob is the oil guy' website - since BITOG is a sales board until recently run by a Florida Schaeffer rep (Bob). Their datasheet says the smallest quantity available is a 6-gallon case (1 gallon bottles).

Andy
 

LurkerMike

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A friend of mine still uses Lubritec2000 as an oil additive and he swears by it... you can't grind a scratch into bearing race if you use it as a lubricant... I think that is the timkin method you are describing... ever heard of Lubritec2000?
 

AndyH

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LurkerMike said:
A friend of mine still uses Lubritec2000 as an oil additive and he swears by it... you can't grind a scratch into bearing race if you use it as a lubricant... I think that is the timkin method you are describing... ever heard of Lubritec2000?
Mike, A quick search suggested that Lubritec is a Teflon-type solid lubricant. These types of additives and coatings are used as extreme-pressure additives - to resist metal to metal contact in high-load areas - like in EP greases and differentials. The timken bench test is a quick way to compare EP performance. Unfortunately, we don't need EP performance in engines - everything rides on an oil film. The thinnest oil film in an engine is the 0-1 micron film on the cam lobes. This isn't an EP situation - it's an anti-wear additive situation - and engine oils have all the anti-wear chemistry they need.

A lot of companies sell EP additives to use in engines - and make a lot of money - even after the Federal Trade Commission sues them. People remember the testimonial or TV ad long after the FTC shuts them down...and the products keep selling, even when the containers no longer list any performance improvements.

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1999/09/prolong.htm
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/07/slick.htm
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2001/02/zmax1.htm
http://www.ftc.gov/os/1999/05/duralubecmp.pdf
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1999/09/shellcastrol.htm
http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/10/ashland.htm

Some of the additives don't do anything (like PTFE), while others will destroy the oil in short order. Chlorine can be an effective EP additive - and bleach will absolutely destroy any engine oil on the 'one armed bandit' - but the oil industry stopped using chlorine compounds in the 30s because it's extremely reactive - and breaks down to form hydrochloric acid in hot engines. Lab testing from 1999 shows that PROLONG increases engine wear and causes both petroleum and synthetic oil to gel and form sludge in oxidation tests.

Andy
 
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LurkerMike

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Andy, you are THE MAN!!!

Thanks!

Would *YOU* use an EP additive in a manual transmission or in a differential?
 

AndyH

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LurkerMike said:
Andy, you are THE MAN!!!

Thanks!

Would *YOU* use an EP additive in a manual transmission or in a differential?
My pleasure!

On additional EP additives - No. I'd look for a fully-formulated product that did what I wanted. (edit: Because the gear lubes for these applications already have EP chemistry as part of the formulation.)

For example - Ford has been having trouble with differentials in pickups running 75W-90 - so the dealers have jumped the fluid to 80W-140 (and have removed 75W-90 from the dealerships). This is hurting corporate average fuel economy, though, so Ford is also working with the lube industry to 'split' the gear lube viscosity range from two products (75W-90 and 80W-140) to four so there are two 'in between' viscosity ranges to use - so they can have the wear control they need without a fuel economy hit. It would have been much less expensive to just stick with 75W-90 and use an additive if that would have worked for them...
 
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LurkerMike

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What year/size rearends are those giving trouble?

I know the late model Furd 1 ton rears have a reputation of failing with full synthetic dope around here... I suspect they need GL4 but the failures are from GL5? Just a guess, it is all word of mouth from local rebuilders who can never be certain exactly what customer or other mechanics did before the failures.
 

OkiTdi

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Factory recommended oil

I'm always interested to see how folks always want to use an oil other than one specified by the engine manufacturer. To be certified, an oil is submitted to the manufacturer (VW) and put through an extensive battery of tests. If it passes, then it gets certified. The oil producer normally has to pay for these tests (10's of thousands of dollars).

The tests are made to measure specific properties that the manufacturer has correlated with engine performance and life.

I'm not a lube formulator, but I've worked for 30 years with guys who do formulate lubes, and their comments are interesting. None of them will use anything but an OEM certified oil (usually one of ours). None of them that I know of use oil additives. In their testing they've found that additives often improve one or two properties, but they usually cause the oil to fail other tests.

OkiTDI
 

LurkerMike

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OkiTdi said:
I'm always interested to see how folks always want to use an oil other than one specified by the engine manufacturer.
I know! I know!

I can't figure out why anyone would want anything other than OEM programming in their car's computer.

I can't figure out why anyone would want anything other than OEM wheels and tires on their car.

I can't figure out why anyone would want anything other than OEM parts instead of aftermarket "performance" parts.

Nothing looks better or performs better than OEM specifications... ever! That's why bone stock vehicles are always faster or get better mileage or look better than anything you could ever hope to do for them.
 

Frank M

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LurkerMike said:
Nothing looks better or performs better than OEM specifications... ever! That's why bone stock vehicles are always faster or get better mileage or look better than anything you could ever hope to do for them.
also they are way more reliable and last much much longer too.

what is wrong though is when it is preached as an improvement and will make the vehicle more reliable and last longer..
 

dieseldorf

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OkiTdi said:
I'm not a lube formulator, but I've worked for 30 years with guys who do formulate lubes, and their comments are interesting. None of them will use anything but an OEM certified oil (usually one of ours). None of them that I know of use oil additives. In their testing they've found that additives often improve one or two properties, but they usually cause the oil to fail other tests.

OkiTDI
OKi, thanks for sharing this. This is the identical point the gentleman at the API was making. OE quality oils represent a very high standard and completely eliminate the guesswork from oil selection.
 

LurkerMike

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But that does not mean that only OE tested oils will protect the engine...

There are other choices not "certified" which may be better or worse than this "golden rule" certification...

It is just a starting point for me. The MINIMUM standard... if I can get what I think is better oil for the given situation, then that's what I'm going to do... If you are still using the OEM recommended oil in your 63 Vette, 68 Jag, 74 Pantera or 79 Lambrogini, you are a fool.
 

tditom

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Mike- I would agree that the latest API oil grade would be best for those older vehicles you listed. This is because these vehicles were probably designed to work with the oils available at that time, and API oils are backwards compatible. I view API specs as the minimum requirements and the "lowest common denominator".

A 2006 version of any of those vehicles would probably mandate the manufacturers oil spec. These specs are tailored to the engine's needs, as opposed to designing the engine to work with the latest API spec. The question is, what does the auto mfr gain by having their own spec? What would their motivation be for having this instead of just using the latest API? Is it really only a racket so they can take in the testing fees? I would think that if this were so, the oil manufacturers would be onto to that, and would submit their best oil for all of the specialized applications. Instead you have major players like Exxon/Mobil formulating oils for different applications. The modern engines/emissions/fuel economy requirements demand much from the motor oils- so much that the auto mfrs have decided to go their own way regarding oil specs.
 

AndyH

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LurkerMike said:
What year/size rearends are those giving trouble?

I know the late model Furd 1 ton rears have a reputation of failing with full synthetic dope around here... I suspect they need GL4 but the failures are from GL5? Just a guess, it is all word of mouth from local rebuilders who can never be certain exactly what customer or other mechanics did before the failures.
Mike,

I don't have details of all the diffs, but will pass-on all I know. The briefing I received the end of May (and reading from my notes) is that Ford removed 75W-90 as an option for all late-model differentials (they're still using it in the transfer cases of 4WD models that use gear lube). The issue was reported as 'poor metalleurgy'. The overall issue is that the diffs were failing before the warranty period expired.

The heavier 80W-140 and large truck sales are hurting fuel mileage and their CAFE numbers. Ford has asked for another graduation in the gear lube hierarchy - currently 75W-90 and 80-140 - because they figure they need 80W-110 as a compromise for enough protection to get the diffs thru to the end of warranty while still giving them enough of a fuel mileage boost to keep CAFE up so they can sell more trucks...

The other note I have from the class is that 75W-90 is fine for normal service, 75W-110 for light towing - about 5000 lbs, and 80W-140 is required for heavy towing.

I've noticed that all of the 2000 and newer F150s spec only 80W-140 for the diffs. I've been seeing the lube requirement change in the diesel pickups as well.

[edit 8-26-06] It looks like it started with the 1995 and newer Ford Ranger and has been spreading from there. AMSOIL published a tech note on it in July '05. I'd expect the Ford TSB would predate July. [/edit]

[edit 3-9-08] Ford continues to specifiy 80W-90 for all non-Ford differentials. They appear to require using heavier gear lube in the Ford-manufactured diffs. Some product lookups show 80W-140 and others show 80W-110.[/edit]

I hope that helps,
Andy
 
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LurkerMike

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tditom said:
The modern engines/emissions/fuel economy requirements
Would you trade off the "emissions" quality of an OEM "certified" oil to get better lubrication/wear protection/fuel economy? Even if that meant that a particular oil FAILED the OEM certification and even API certification?

I would.

But some would say that I am criminally insane. :D
 
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