NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

pknopp

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Location
WV
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagen
If you think about it as a standard replacement item, the cost, although high, doesn't seem that out of line. Just add $1000 to your timing belt job.
Or perhaps far less if it turns out that the rebuilds noted earlier are simply replacing the cup and roller.
 

Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Or perhaps far less if it turns out that the rebuilds noted earlier are simply replacing the cup and roller.
Except all that metal in your fuel tank and rail and injectors is aluminum...from the bore? The cup and roller, we believe are steel, as well as the piston showing wear.

The way I see it, once the DLC coating wears off, you have abrasive diamonds or DLC coating floating around in your fuel system for ever, until it goes through the injectors and out your exhaust. Can't be non abrasive, it has diamond like hardness, and cuts up everything.
 
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GTIDan

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2009
Location
So. California
TDI
2010 Candy White Jetta, DSG
Except all that metal in your fuel tank and rail and injectors is aluminum...from the bore? The cup and roller, we believe are steel, as well as the piston showing wear.

The way I see it, once the DLC coating wears off, you have abrasive diamonds or DLC coating floating around in your fuel system for ever, until it goes through the injectors and out your exhaust. Can't be non abrasive, it has diamond like hardness, and cuts up everything.
If it's done right it's not going to wear off......... :)
 

pknopp

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Location
WV
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagen
Except all that metal in your fuel tank and rail and injectors is aluminum...from the bore? The cup and roller, we believe are steel, as well as the piston showing wear.
I don't know. They are being rebuilt. If the barrel is toast then they are boring or sleeving them.

The way I see it, once the DLC coating wears off, you have abrasive diamonds or DLC coating floating around in your fuel system for ever, until it goes through the injectors and out your exhaust. Can't be non abrasive, it has diamond like hardness, and cuts up everything.
I've seen two. One had it's coating shredded and the other didn't. I have plenty of time to find out what is what. I realize that not everyone is in the same situation.
 

Second Turbo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2002
Location
Kansas, USA
TDI
2003 ALH Wagon, 373K, 2nd 01M
What, me worry?

GTIDan: >Drive more/worry less.

I drive quite enough already, and I never worry.
I just make my decisions and carry on.

> Don't let those 1 percent (the sky is falling, the
> sky is falling) stop you from your purchase.


The only thing stopping me from buying a CR is me.

> I suspect most of them are afraid to go outside
> for fear of an asteroid hitting them.
> Most things in life carry risks.


My former route to work had a 0.3% chance of hitting a deer.
I hit five of them (all with the Jetta). Two resulted in
totalled deer and claimable damage, $500 deductable.

This is a risk lower than an HPFP failure, with an out-of-pocket
a mere 6% of HPFP collateral damage. And the deer are a
risk I can insure against. Nonetheless, I changed my route
(to interstate : same transit time, more miles, no deer so far,
not even any close calls, which were monthly before).

I cannot credibly* insure against an HPFP failure, nor take any
steps to improve the odds. This makes buying a CR much less
attractive than other choices available to me. But since I haven't
acted yet, I follow the HPFP story with some interest. VW could
pull a rabbit out of their hat, so to speak.

Even if I decide to fix the P0811 on the ALH, I view that as
temporary, and will continue to watch TDI developments.
_______
* Aftermarket extended warranties are not credible.
VW's factory EWs may be little better.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Although in some states, I hear you can actually insure (rather than warrant) against an HPFP failure.

As in, get a rider on the auto insurance policy that you already have, that covers HPFP replacement all the way up through accidental misfueling.
 

HammerTDI

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Location
Ohio
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SE Manual
Schaub: > ... I live in Illinois where B11 is pretty standard.
> I don't know near as much as you guys about this but from
> what I've gathered b5 is max recommended blend. So even if
> I bought an extended warranty couldn't I still be screwed?


You might be at risk regardless of what you pour into it.

I'm still pondering what to do about my failing ALH, and just for the heck of it, configured a 2012 JSW TDI on vw.com, which resulted in emails from two regional dealers (even though I'd designated only one of them to do so :mad:)

I put some questions to them, paraphrased below. One of them completely ignored the HPFP topic, except to claim that their shop hadn't seen any failures. The other typed like a lawyer was breathing down his neck:

Q. What is the warranty?
A. 3yr/36k* bumper-to-bumper, 5yr/60k drive train.

Q. Is the HPFP covered under drive train?
A. No, but you could beg.

Q. What extended warranty is available?
A. 2yr (neglected to specify miles, if any apply)

Q. Does the EW cover the HPFP?
A. See the booklet (no link provided - I take that as a "no")

It strikes me as entirely possible that VW's final solution to the HPFP problem will be to stop selling TDIs in the US, and offer only the upcoming Jetta Hybrid to people who want 40+ mpg (and price the hybrids to cover VW's liability on the CRs already sold).

______
* I drive 24k per year, so I'd get only 18 months of assured HPFP coverage.

I have a 2012 Jetta TDI w/ DSG transmission. I went through the extended service contract I bought (Fidelity/VW Platinum Easy Drive). It says NOWHERE that the HPFP is excluded. It DOES say that resultant damage (damage caused to other parts by a failed part) are covered.

I bought a 4 yr 100k warranty for $1400 w. $100 deductible. If I don't use the warranty I get the $1400 back when it expires.
 

dubStrom

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Location
Kansas City Missouri
TDI
2003 A4 Jetta (sold), 2010 JSW (sold), 2013 Passat 6MT traded for 2014 JSW with 6MT-TOTALED in November 2016, 2003 ALH 5MT conversion (sold), wheezing 2015 GSW/DSG and a new 2021 Tacoma Access Cab 4x4 p'up
If I don't use the warranty I get the $1400 back when it expires.
Wow. Of course, this does not cover you for metal flakes after 100k. I'd like to have a feeling of confidence after 100k. I really like this wagon (and I am only covered officially to 60k).

As I stated it would be nice to have a product that protects the fuel system from catastrophic failure. You know, that troublesome replacement of fuel tank, fuel lines, other components that run up to near $10k.

The sky is not falling, very often.
 
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HammerTDI

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Location
Ohio
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SE Manual
Wow. Of course, this does not cover you for metal flakes after 100k. I'd like to have a feeling of confidence after 100k. I really like this wagon (and I am only covered officially to 60k).

As I stated it would be nice to have a product that protects the fuel system from catastrophic failure. You know, that troublesome replacement of fuel tank, fuel lines, other components that run up to near $10k.

The sky is not falling, very often.
I understand. I will be putting 35,000 miles per year on the car, so that gives me 3 years roughly to watch the HPFP debacle take place. If the HPFP turns out to be a dud, I will get rid of the car for something else. If the 2012's prove to be reliable, i'll keep it till the wheels fall off.
 

GTIDan

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2009
Location
So. California
TDI
2010 Candy White Jetta, DSG
GTIDan: >Drive more/worry less.

I drive quite enough already, and I never worry.
I just make my decisions and carry on.

> Don't let those 1 percent (the sky is falling, the
> sky is falling) stop you from your purchase.

The only thing stopping me from buying a CR is me.

> I suspect most of them are afraid to go outside
> for fear of an asteroid hitting them.
> Most things in life carry risks.

My former route to work had a 0.3% chance of hitting a deer.
I hit five of them (all with the Jetta). Two resulted in
totalled deer and claimable damage, $500 deductable.

This is a risk lower than an HPFP failure, with an out-of-pocket
a mere 6% of HPFP collateral damage. And the deer are a
risk I can insure against. Nonetheless, I changed my route
(to interstate : same transit time, more miles, no deer so far,
not even any close calls, which were monthly before).

I cannot credibly* insure against an HPFP failure, nor take any
steps to improve the odds. This makes buying a CR much less
attractive than other choices available to me. But since I haven't
acted yet, I follow the HPFP story with some interest. VW could
pull a rabbit out of their hat, so to speak.

Even if I decide to fix the P0811 on the ALH, I view that as
temporary, and will continue to watch TDI developments.
_______
* Aftermarket extended warranties are not credible.
VW's factory EWs may be little better.
OK, your the exception...........don't buy one and stop hitting those deer :)
 

Second Turbo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2002
Location
Kansas, USA
TDI
2003 ALH Wagon, 373K, 2nd 01M
It's a loss, so make it up in volume?

HammerTDI: > I bought a 4 yr 100k warranty for $1400 w. $100 deductible. If I don't use the warranty I get the $1400 back when it expires.

What sort of weird business model is that?
How do they make money?
Do they expect average claims to result in payouts lower than $1400?
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Not just laws requiring higher quality fuel, but actual enforcement of those laws - as in, random sampling.

And, B5 doesn't help when you have a poorly maintained tank that's got a lot of water and sediment in it (it could actually hurt, IIRC), nor does it help when you've got morons that dump gasoline into the diesel tank at the station.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
It also won't help if the B2 or B5 is taken into account with regards to the lubricity specifications (i.e. the fuel blender uses the B2 as a substitute for whatever lubricity additive that they would otherwise be using to achieve 520 wear scar, so that the combined B2 blend is still only 520 wear scar or worse).

To my knowledge, there have still been very few HPFP failures in Canada, despite VW diesels having a larger market share here. (Canadian fuel specs call for 460 wear scar)
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Actually, I just realized, there's an actual regulatory framework that could even be used, that's already in place, for government inspection of fuel pumps. Granted, it's usually done by the county, but... county weights and measures boards collect fuel from random stations to ensure that quantities are correct already. So, that collected fuel could be a fuel sample to be analyzed for fuel quality.
 

JSWTDI09

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
TDI
2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
....So, that collected fuel could be a fuel sample to be analyzed for fuel quality.
True, it could be, but who is going to be paying for the fuel analysis? That's not in anybody's budget and the likelihood of any new "revenue source" is slim at best.

Have Fun!

Son
 

HammerTDI

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Location
Ohio
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SE Manual
In regards to the warranty I purchased:

It says they will send me a check. It only applies if you have no claims AND keep it till expiration. You have to send in a certified odometer statement and send it in within 60 days of expiration. You get a full refund minus a $50 processing charge.

You do not get a full refund if you trade the car in and do not keep it till the expiration (miles/time). You get a pro-rated refund less a $50 processing charge.

Like I said prior, I will keep the car to 100,000 when the warranty expires, if the HPFP issue has not been resolved, I will get rid of the car. If it has and I still like it as much as I do now, I will keep it as long as I can.
 
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Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
Getting the government to change the diesel fuel quality standard will be a bigger endeavor than getting VW to replace every pump made with a new improved model. Good luck with that!
 

T Girl

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 23, 2002
Location
Dayton TX
TDI
11 JSW 6sp man
Originally Posted by ZiggyTheHamster
Can you clarify some things for me (I keep a spreadsheet of the TDI Club pumps)? Normally, a pump will say "BPT ####" and either have numbers under it or not. Both are always four digits. In your case, you have "BPY 070757" - should it be something like "BPT 0757" or is it really as you wrote? Also, did you notice any green or yellow dots near the label?


I will check again and get back with you.


OK sorry it took so long to respond but here it is. I checked my new pump again and triple checked the info on the tag. I made one mistake as you suggest the BPY was followed only by four numbers. I guess I was seeing double that day or something!
So here is what is on my pump line by line:

Bosch 515
0 455 010 508
CR/CP4S1/R35/20
03L 130 755A
09091111
BPY 0757
MADE IN CZECH REPUBLIC

There are NO green or yellow dots anywhere on the pump or label. So your concern was the last line which does read "BPY 0757". After that line there is nothing else except "MADE IN CZECH REPUBLIC".

Can you provide a link to your spreadsheet?

Hope this clears up the confusion.

The car now has 3000 miles since the new pump and fuel system replacement. I did ask the service manager what the results of the fuel analysis from my fuel tank was but he never responded.
 

pinkertonfloyd

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Location
Roseville, CA
TDI
14' Subie Outback FMR: 12' Jetta TDI/P+N
Can you cite numbers and sources please? Where is data on "failures in the field" to be found?? Are these continuing failures not being reported to the NHSTA??? If one uses the NHTSA site's search function (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/complaints/index.cfm) for, by way of example, 2010-VW-JETTA-FUEL SYSTEM, DIESEL, the search (currently) returns 47 reported complaints, but perhaps folks just aren't registering complaints with the NHTSA...???? (and, if so, why not?)
Just to point out... you can't do that, the NHTSA website isn't the best (and I think some reports are based (due to the 3rd party wording) are from phone calls). Basically expand your search to everything and flip through, them I found that there are more HPFP failures reported under "Engine", and "Fuel System Gasoline" than The "Fuel System Diesel". Basically, remove the search, and have the summary and you'll see, the categorization is more often wrong than correct.
 

Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Originally Posted by ZiggyTheHamster
Can you clarify some things for me (I keep a spreadsheet of the TDI Club pumps)? Normally, a pump will say "BPT ####" and either have numbers under it or not. Both are always four digits. In your case, you have "BPY 070757" - should it be something like "BPT 0757" or is it really as you wrote? Also, did you notice any green or yellow dots near the label?


I will check again and get back with you.


OK sorry it took so long to respond but here it is. I checked my new pump again and triple checked the info on the tag. I made one mistake as you suggest the BPY was followed only by four numbers. I guess I was seeing double that day or something!
So here is what is on my pump line by line:

Bosch 515
0 455 010 508
CR/CP4S1/R35/20
03L 130 755A
09091111
BPY 0757
MADE IN CZECH REPUBLIC

There are NO green or yellow dots anywhere on the pump or label. So your concern was the last line which does read "BPY 0757". After that line there is nothing else except "MADE IN CZECH REPUBLIC".

Can you provide a link to your spreadsheet?

Hope this clears up the confusion.

The car now has 3000 miles since the new pump and fuel system replacement. I did ask the service manager what the results of the fuel analysis from my fuel tank was but he never responded.
Well, with the part number ending in 155A and not 155AX, the HPFP they installed is new on your car, not remanufactured. Made in Czech Republic is another indication it's a new pump, too, instead of Made in Germany.

I wonder what they are doing differently, manufacturing wise, in Czech Republic?
 

ZiggyTheHamster

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Location
Richmond, CA
TDI
2009 VW Jetta TDI
Bosch 515
0 455 010 508
CR/CP4S1/R35/20
03L 130 755A
09091111
BPY 0757
MADE IN CZECH REPUBLIC
I've updated your record to show the correct number. Your pump is the first pump which has "BPY" instead of "BPT", and I've seen a couple other Czech Republic pumps (the 515 is Czech Republic, 011 is Germany, unless it's a coincidence that I started seeing 515s alongside the "Made in Czech Republic" markings).

Can you provide a link to your spreadsheet?
Here's a link to the spreadsheet of HPFP pumps and failures (though the failure list is out of date I think).

I also forgot to ask, when was your car made? The month/year will be inside the driver's side door jamb. I think it's towards the bottom, but I've seen it halfway up or so on some cars.
 
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ZiggyTheHamster

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Location
Richmond, CA
TDI
2009 VW Jetta TDI
Well, with the part number ending in 155A and not 155AX, the HPFP they installed is new on your car, not remanufactured. Made in Czech Republic is another indication it's a new pump, too, instead of Made in Germany.
I wonder what they are doing differently, manufacturing wise, in Czech Republic?
I *think* that the remanned pumps only have "AX" on the box. The label, as far as I've seen, still has "A".

Also, I think manufacturing-wise, the factory is new (built in ~2005): link
 

carnotgas

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2005
Location
New York
TDI
2015 Jetta
Parting Out

I am parting out my 2009 Jetta TDI. It has a 6 speed manual transmission, sunroof, 17 inch wheels. Graphite Blue. The vehicle is not worth repairing since it is out of warranty. It has a bad HPFP along with the rest of the fuel system. The turbo is bad and so is the DPF. It is due for a timing belt replacement. The exhust flapper valve is bad also. The steering wheel is off center and the vehicle pulled to the right when it was running. The satalite radio only works sometimes so I can't even use it to listen to music. The air conditioner was slow to cool down when I used to drive the car. Actually, I can't think of anything on the car that works! I doubt that anyone would want to buy any parts off of this lemon.

Thanks for reading.
 
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