R520 Cold start smoke and stutter

Milage King

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Jun 21, 2008
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Spring Grove, IL
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03 Jetta TD tuned
Anyone have any recommendations or testimonies to running R520's in cold weather? I currently have smoke and even a little stutter on start up for a few seconds and its only 40 F outside.

- The nozzles were balanced and popped at 255 / 330.
- I did a compression check a few months back, 420 psi across the board when cold.
- I have channel 5 turned down to 30000 for the least fueling on start up
- I had the IP timing at 72, I put it up to 90 and the start up was better, a little quicker too, but still stutters a few seconds and quite smokey
- I increased the glow plug time a little so it's on longer before firing up.
- Car runs smoke free and pulls like a little freight train.

Anyone have any +/- experience running R520's in cold weather? Any suggestions? Bump up timing on channel 4, currently set at 32768?
 

TDIJetta99

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03... Faster than yours =]
Ya.. Mine does it with the R's, but it has 18:1 compression and a big cam (little more than the Colt stage 3).. It'll be a little shaky and smokey even up to about 50 degrees.. It clears up after about 20-30 seconds..
 

ArturCosta

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Portugal
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Audi A4 Avant 1996 Silver
I dont have R520 but in my case I changed the idle speed at cold so it heats up faster and runs smother in the first seconds.No smoke at all after modding the SOI at cold and IQ on the remap.
With stock map and the PP764 at 225/310 it starts a bit smokey and not at the first "rotation" of the starter.

I actually have here a video of when I finalized the tuning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmVBo2KYW5M
 

Drivbiwire

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2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
You may want to consider a quick nozzle cleaning... Afterwards, Just make sure they are cracking crisply and at the correct pressures for Pilot injection.
 

Milage King

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Location
Spring Grove, IL
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03 Jetta TD tuned
You may want to consider a quick nozzle cleaning... Afterwards, Just make sure they are cracking crisply and at the correct pressures for Pilot injection.
Hey Pete, these were just set up by you 2 months ago(2500 miles or so). They appear to by working great, smooth and with plenty of power and the tune has no smoke from idle to WOT when its 65°F or less.:D

Just need to see if theres anything I can do to make the cold start better.
 

cog

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yes it is completly normal mate dont worry my r520s are properly balenced and tested also , and it still does the same lumpy idle on start up until it warms up a touch then fine . i did bump up the idle and increase timing toward the top of the advance line this helped get rid of the white smoke on start up but it still idles lumpy for half a mile till it warms up a few degrees i also worried about it to start with and tried allot incuding sending my injectors away to a different guy to test but there firing very very well and certainly no need for alteration . i know others have the same with r520s so im not worried. if you find a cure let me know
 

Milage King

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03 Jetta TD tuned
Yeah I'm not worried.. Welcome to the world of high performance haha
I wouldn't say I'm worried, but i would like to go away or lesson it if at all possible. I think Artur had some positive input on this, just looking for suggestions of what others have done to improve the situation.
 

ArturCosta

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Portugal
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Audi A4 Avant 1996 Silver
+10c__+40c water
1050___930rpm

Work great for me!




Dieseleux
Mine is -10c 1200 +35c 903 , hot value 903... I had this at 861 but sounds smother the engine at 903rpm.
Also I have the post glow of the plugs at 9seconds after start under +29c that helps for no white smoke.

I havent yet found the coolant plugs part on the map... that would be nice.:D
 

Milage King

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Spring Grove, IL
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03 Jetta TD tuned
I dont have R520 but in my case I changed the idle speed at cold so it heats up faster and runs smother in the first seconds.No smoke at all after modding the SOI at cold and IQ on the remap.
With stock map and the PP764 at 225/310 it starts a bit smokey and not at the first "rotation" of the starter.

I actually have here a video of when I finalized the tuning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmVBo2KYW5M
I maxed out the injection timing on channel 4 last night, when i went to start it this morning, no smoke or stutter:D. I'm also running at 90 on the IP timing, and the car runs smooth, but I think I'm pushing the limits of advancement and will back it down and see if Mike can do this in the tune. I'm glad to finally see something work for it.

Artur, did you advance the timing just on start up, then back to normal once its running?
 

hatemi

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Just set the mechanical timiming at the upper line in VCDS and be done with it. I have actually had mine set up even earlier with larger nozzles.
 

ArturCosta

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Portugal
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Audi A4 Avant 1996 Silver
I maxed out the injection timing on channel 4 last night, when i went to start it this morning, no smoke or stutter:D. I'm also running at 90 on the IP timing, and the car runs smooth, but I think I'm pushing the limits of advancement and will back it down and see if Mike can do this in the tune. I'm glad to finally see something work for it.

Artur, did you advance the timing just on start up, then back to normal once its running?
I advanced the IP and then retarded the cold SOI till I got no smoke.
At hot it works fine with minor adjustments to stock SOI map.

In my car the best spot I got in the timing is to get the timing valve duty at hot to be the lowest possible. My pump cant do less then 1ºBTDC at hot with this setup and works fine.

Still a funny thing is that if I look close at the exhaust with a flashlight it still makes smoke , and I once thought it was possible to get rid of that smoke with no EGR , but its impossible.

I have tested this setup up to 1500meters altitude and with 0ºC and it works great. Colder then that its very difficult to happen here in my country so I dont know if this will work at lower temps.
 

Milage King

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Spring Grove, IL
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03 Jetta TD tuned
Just set the mechanical timiming at the upper line in VCDS and be done with it. I have actually had mine set up even earlier with larger nozzles.
The upper line is at 80, i set it too 90 and I still stuttered and smoked until i advanced the timing in channel 4.


I advanced the IP and then retarded the cold SOI till I got no smoke.
At hot it works fine with minor adjustments to stock SOI map.

In my car the best spot I got in the timing is to get the timing valve duty at hot to be the lowest possible. My pump cant do less then 1ºBTDC at hot with this setup and works fine.

Still a funny thing is that if I look close at the exhaust with a flashlight it still makes smoke , and I once thought it was possible to get rid of that smoke with no EGR , but its impossible.

I have tested this setup up to 1500meters altitude and with 0ºC and it works great. Colder then that its very difficult to happen here in my country so I dont know if this will work at lower temps.
Thanks for the help, I appreciate it.
 

jsrmonster

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brum

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Can you be more specific :) ?

I also had some problems with cold start (11mm complete pump, .240mm Firad nozzles). I've modified the preheating, the starting IQ and still got some issues.

What I will modify is the pump position (will push it to a little bit more advanced position). SOI I guess is fine, because after start there is no sign of any smoke (except little black smoke if I push it harder first few minutes).

Maybe SOI maps will provide some additional benefit, but I'm waiting for colder times (it is now around 50F). I guess 20-30F will be good time to find what is the correct solution for large nozzles and cold startup :) .
 

Keebler145

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-2 celsius isn't quite as cold as 9 farenheit, and I'm pretty sure where jeff lives isn't sea level ;)
 

Bdpprocessors

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i have shudder for maybe 3 seconds on my car with the r520's but it has many mods and 16.1-1 compression it also smokes white for maybe 30 seconds on first start up of the day if its around freezing outside . the smoke is just a slight haze and clears up quickly

(cylinder temps are too cold and all the fuel isnt properly burning)
 

bhodgkiss

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Banbury, UK
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AFN Passat Wagon
Just installed calibrated 220/350bar R520's and mine hesitates and take a while to start.... Some white smoke in idle too.
Stock compression. Cold here (below freezing)
Glow plugs I think are working.

Pump is just below mid timing line.
Idle IQ is 5.2mg/str at 32768

Not adjusted any thing other than my remap which affects the numbers higher up the rev range and runs beautifully otherwise.

What shall I do please?
 
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bhodgkiss

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Can I do that with group 4 timing adaptation? This will change it across the rev range of course, but can i then get it back to what it was previously with reduced advance at upper revs?
 

bhodgkiss

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Which is fine, but within the timing range of the pump can't I adjust the entire range (advanced or retarded) by a certain amount by adjusting the 32768 value in group 4? I thought adjusting this by a value of +/- 100 changed the pump timing by a degree?

Then to restore the timing in the rest of the map I'd back it off by a degree in the soi map to suit?

Aside, why am I not able to adjust idle timing in the soi map? I think the map has a value at 800rpm and 3-5mg fuel?

Thanks
 

TDIJetta99

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03... Faster than yours =]
the adaptation and static timing are 2 different things.. You can put the adaptation wherever you want and the timing on the graph won't move because that's not what you are measuring with the graph.. To move the plot on the graph, the pump itself needs to be adjusted.. I'm not sure how the AFN is set up, but you'll either have to rotate the pump, or adjust the pulley on it..
 

bhodgkiss

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Yes and I agree with that too, but what I mean is:

- the pump mechanical timing sets the vcds graph.
- the adaptation can then change the timing across the rev range and effectively give an offset to this. So in reality this is equivalent of mechanical timing being different to begin with. There is only so much scope to advance/retard the ignition but maybe a degree or two with adaptation.
- this then offsets the timing across the rev range so in the Soi map you could potentially pull it back for the rest of the rev range.

So just say my mechanical timing is showing as 1 deg retarded from the mid line in vcds at idle. I tweak the 32768 value in group 4 to change this to 1 deg advanced instead, so move it two degrees. But then my entire map is 2 deg too advanced so at top end it's now giving 17 deg advanced, not 15 deg. So in the soi map I change the advance from 15 deg to 13 deg at top end and I'm back where I started and smooth out inbetween, but what i have done is advanced the idle timing?

Does this work?

Can I change the soi map at idle revs or does it ignore this please?
 

m1ketdi

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Leam
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Leon BKD
The problem is ben that the control system cannot adapt the timing during starting the engine. So you need the mechanical advance to make it start well...
 

bhodgkiss

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Ah I see! Thanks! Not easy on mine, well not as easy as it could be, bumper needs removing, front carrier tipping forward to get onto pulley bolts..... If I'm doing that might as well install the 11mm pump!!!

It's only just below the mid line so not excessively retarded..... I assume the higher pop pressures have caused this? What else should I try first please?
 
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TDIJetta99

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03... Faster than yours =]
Just advance the pump.. It takes 15 minutes..

You're asking for advice and we're giving it to you, but you're somehow insisting on trying other things.. JUST ADVANCE THE PUMP AND GET THE GRAPH UP TO THE GREEN LINE...
 
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