05 jetta tdi fuel problems and questions

Mspry

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Location
Ok
TDI
2005 jetta
If anybody has some input to help me out it would be greatly appreciated before I pull my hair out. The lift pump in the tank went out on me so I replaced it. Now I still can't get the car to start. I've disconnected the return line from the fuel filter and used the mighty vac on it and still getting air. After pulling a vacuum for forever I finally decided something was leaking. After working my way to eliminate where it was leaking I finally ended up with a hose on the supply side of the injector pump in a jug of diesel and the vacuum directly on the return side of the injector pump. Still air...... It seems pretty obvious to me that there's a seal leaking in the injector pump allowing air to be drawn in, but at the same time I thought I'd ask to see if there was something I was missing that somebody might be able to tell me before I bite the bullet and order the injector pump. Thanks in advance for any help!!!!
 
Last edited:

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
It can take some effort to re-bleed the fuel rail on a PD car. I've not had luck drawing fuel to the head with vacuum...I don't think that it works that way.

If your tank pump works (why wouldn't it), let it do the work. You can flip the key to the ON position to cycle it numerous times but, ...
You can hook a battery to the large outer terminals on the lift pump to let it run continuously. Brown wire goes to negative and the other is +. (look at the harness for reference)

Let it run for a couple of minutes to let the fuel circulate. If you feel inclined, put a clear fuel line on the return line from the tandem pump to the filter so you can see the progress. Usually not necessary.

Charge up the battery.

Once that is done, pull out the glow plugs to get the compression load out of the picture and crank the engine in 15-20 second intervals until you see fuel mist coming out of all four of the glow plug holes. Now you have fuel in the cylinders.
Put the glow plugs back in and give 'er a go.
 
Last edited:

Mspry

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Location
Ok
TDI
2005 jetta
Thanks for the advice. I tried that and I did get it to where I wasn't getting air any longer, however removing the glow plugs and cranking I still get no fuel. Any other suggestions?
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
Did the car run before you replaced the lift pump?

How long did you crank it? Like I said, it can take a bit of cranking to get it coming out of the injectors if all the fuel drained back.

Is this a 2005 or 2005.5 Jetta?
 

Mspry

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Location
Ok
TDI
2005 jetta
I cranked on it five or six times for a good 20 seconds each. Yes it was running fine when the lift pump died. It was driving down the road when it quit. And it's the early 2005.
 

pdq import repair

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Location
idaho
TDI
09 Jetta
I suspect the lift pump death was not the reason it quit on the road.
Does the check engine light come on with the key?
 

Mspry

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Location
Ok
TDI
2005 jetta
Yes the check engine light does come on when the key is turned on.
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
I'm inclinded to agree with PDQ/
Time to start looking for codes with VCDS for clues.

--engine speed sensor
--injector harness ground
something like that
 

Mspry

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Location
Ok
TDI
2005 jetta
Would one of the cheap $20 code scanners at Auto zone do the trick or is it going to take something a little better? Also I did in fact check the old lift pump when I replaced it. Hooked power to the two leads. It was locked up till I smacked it with a screw driver, then started spinning. Just sounded horrible after it did start spinning then would lock up again. Also the check engine light was on for quite a while before hand. I had it checked and it was giving a code saying the engine was running cool.
 
Last edited:

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
Lift pump failures in the A4 PD cars are very common. I would say that about half or more cars equipped with them that come in here have bad pumps and the owners did not know about it. It does not always result in a stall-out or no-start until they lose their prime for one reason or another.

I have never used one of those scanners and don't know their shortcomings but, it may be a place to start if you want to get a basic view on things. If you will be the one that will be working on keeping the car running then VCDS and these forums are your best friends.
 

Mspry

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Location
Ok
TDI
2005 jetta
Ok that makes sense seeing as how the previous models didn't even have a lift pump. I'll see if I can grab a vcds after work today and go from there. I'll let you know my findings. Thanks again for all the help.
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
Ok that makes sense seeing as how the previous models didn't even have a lift pump. I'll see if I can grab a vcds after work today and go from there. I'll let you know my findings. Thanks again for all the help.
To be clear, by VCDS, I meant the real deal from Ross-tech.com
 

Mspry

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Location
Ok
TDI
2005 jetta
Any suggestions on which one? I'd prefer to keep the cost at a minimum if at all possible.
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
They changed their product line up since I bought it.

The pro stuff is more than the casual user would need and the "VCDS lite" is too much of a compromise in my opinion.

If this is for you only then the HEX-V2 for $199 is probably what would work for your purposes. It limits you to either 3 or 10 vehicles depending on the price.

A trip to the VW dealer for almost anything will probably cost more than that.
 

turbovan+tdi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
Failed in tank PD lift pumps rarely cause it to suddently die. I'd be checking the timing belt, my guess is it let go and that's why it won't start. The top cover is easy to pull off, then you can it to TDC and see if the cam pulley is pointing correctly.
 

Mspry

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Location
Ok
TDI
2005 jetta
This is possible but at the same time some starting fluid down the air intake(yes I know not the best option but I was trying to narrow it down) and it fires right up. Leads me to believe it's more of a fuel delivery problem.
 

Mspry

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Location
Ok
TDI
2005 jetta
Alright guys sorry for the delay, but I just managed to get the code scanner. The only one I got other than the low engine temp one I mentioned before. P0102 which after some research is the mass air flow sensor. Any ideas on where to proceed now?
 

turbovan+tdi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
Disconnect the MAF, this puts the computer into default mode and it should run semi decent.
 

Mspry

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Location
Ok
TDI
2005 jetta
Ok so after researching this a little more I've realized that this engine doesn't have a mass injector pump, but rather a pump that runs of the back of the cam which supplies fuel down a rail under the valve cover to the injectors. The injectors have a spring on them and rather than have a high pressure pump, each injector is ran off lobes on the can and is a pump/injector that is ran off a rocket arm. I've pulled the valve cover and verified that these are all in fact being pumped by the cam. Am I correct in assuming that the ecm only controls the amount of fuel and the pressure at which it is injected? Also does anybody agree that the only possible issue could be the pump?
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
Ok so after researching this a little more I've realized that this engine doesn't have a mass injector pump, but rather a pump that runs of the back of the cam which supplies fuel down a rail under the valve cover to the injectors. The injectors have a spring on them and rather than have a high pressure pump, each injector is ran off lobes on the can and is a pump/injector that is ran off a rocket arm. I've pulled the valve cover and verified that these are all in fact being pumped by the cam. Am I correct in assuming that the ecm only controls the amount of fuel and the pressure at which it is injected? Also does anybody agree that the only possible issue could be the pump?
A faulty tandem pump can certainly cause a no-start and is a likely cause if nothing else seems to surface. You can check the pressure it creates with a 0-150PSI pressure gauge and a a fitting to adapt to the port on the head.

Here is a thread:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=425876

I ran into this problem on a car a BEW engine a few years ago. The owner said it just quit out of nowhere while driving. Tried a substitute tandem pump as well; Still not a hint of fuel being injected. No codes being thrown.

I tried everything before putting in a different set of injectors...and then it fired right up. Don't know how it could have trashed all four injectors at once but, that was the fix.
The fuel itself looked a bit suspect so I drained the tank to start fresh. Still running today as far as I know.

If the o ring seals on the bodies of the injectors are hardened and broken, it can cause low pressure in the rail, too.
 

Carlos_TJ

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Location
Tijuana Mexico
TDI
2009 Bora (BXE PD)
Also make sure:
Asv is not stuck close
Egr is not stuck open

I know from your previous information looks like this is a fuel delivery problem, and the asv / egr is an air delivery checkpoint, but the maf code puts noise into this
 
Last edited:

Mspry

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Location
Ok
TDI
2005 jetta
I removed the EGR last night to gain access to the valve cover bolts. The EGR did have quite a bit of carbon in it, but as I mentioned before starting fluid down the air intake and the car starts right up. Maybe I'm wrong in my thinking on this but wouldn't that eliminate an issue on the air intake side of things? JETaah, thanks for the information. I definitely appreciate any info I can get. I have the tandem pump off the car. Simple enough. My main issue is I don't really have any way of testing it without the car running. :/ I did read an article that talked cavitation inside the tandem pump causing the metal to flake lose and possibly plug injectors. It's sounding like I'm going to get to replace the tandem pump, then if that doesn't work replace injectors. Does this seem like a reasonable assumption and train of thought? I'm fairly confident in this, but at the same time, reassurance from someone that knows more about it than myself makes it a little easier to proceed. lol. Basically curious if you think I should try the tandem pump or injectors first, or both. My reasoning behind my thinking of the pump first is because if the flaking and plugging of the injectors is true, I'd hate to buy a new set of injectors just to plug them up.
 
Last edited:

turbovan+tdi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
I'd borrow/rent/buy a gauge before spending the money on a tandem pump. Throwing parts at a car gets really expensive when you don't really know what happened.

You really need a proper scanner so you can check for cam and cranks signals as it won't start if one of those goes out but will start on ether.
 

Mspry

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Location
Ok
TDI
2005 jetta
The gauge isn't much of deal, the problem is, is there a way to test the pressure without the car running? Also, I understand that the Snap-On scanner isn't the preferred tool for these cars, but would the ECM not show a Power train code if one of these sensors were bad?
 

turbovan+tdi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
The gauge isn't much of deal, the problem is, is there a way to test the pressure without the car running? Also, I understand that the Snap-On scanner isn't the preferred tool for these cars, but would the ECM not show a Power train code if one of these sensors were bad?
You can still see if the pump is producing pressure, this is the key here.

Snap ON should be able to see cam and crank sensor info.
 

Mspry

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Location
Ok
TDI
2005 jetta
The other thing is that when cranking, the tach comes up after a few seconds. This would eliminate the crank sensor being an issue correct? I have also attached a clear tube on the return of the tandem pump from it to the filter. There is very very little pressure at that point.
 
Top