Fly wheel off by 6 teeth after tb job, solutions?

Ok guys and gals, i could use some of your creativity and experence to come up with a possible solution.

I had the crank at tdc and locked with a crank lock, the cam locked down with plate and feeler guages, and the ip locked in place.

I un pin the ip pump when i tighten the tensioner with the spanner wrench. Torqued down the cam sproket and check everything to make sure cam and fly wheele still at tdc and they were. Then i removed the cam locking plate and the crank locking plate.

Before i turn anything, the belt is like 1/4 of a tooth off on the ip pump but solid on the crank and cam.


I turn the engine at the crank and the belt seats its self on the ip and begins to move. I had marked the belt before moving it at the cam, crank and ip to see if any teeth skipped after i was done turning my crank.

Two complete turns of the engine and no contact between the valves and the pistion BUT.... While the fly wheel is at tdc, the cam and ip is off. I expected the ip to be off because of the belt seating it self but the cam?

So to get the plate back into the cam to lock it down to see how far off the crank is, i had to rotate the crank towards the radiator which was approximately 6 teeth.

What is a good solution for this, i back the engine two revolutions by hand to get back to where i had initially set everything, carefully.


So long story short, would it be a good idea to reset everthing and have the crank tdc moved 6 fly wheel teeth towards the fire wall to compensate for the slack being taken up on the ip.

Since the ip has already seated it self and and lined up with the belt teeth, previously off by 1/4 of a tooth, if i were to reset the crank to match the cam it shouldnt have the same problem of having the belt off it by 1/4 of a tooth.

Sorry for the extensive typing but i would like to hear what you might all say . No i did not use the paint and pray method, i followed bently to the letter and that walk though on here. Also thanks to everyone who has given me advise so far. No rush though, i have another car. Oh yeah the crank didnt meet up with the cam and ip locked in place when i started in the first place, it was off by like 3 or 4 teeth.

I'll be glad to comment!

Six teeth on the FLYWHEEL is equivalent to ONE TOOTH on the crankshaft timing belt sprocket. In the situtaion you described, the crankshaft is advanced in relation to the IP and Cam.

Rotate the engine back to TDC at the CAM and IP... install the IP pin and Cam lock plate. Then loosen the TB tensioner and loosen and remove the Cam Sprocket. Push the TB downward creating some slack at the crank sprocket. Now, rotate the crank counter clockwise (toward firewall) until you see the timing mark on the flywheel. Do not install the crank hold-down device.

Now, pull the TB up at the IP to remove slack, install TB and CAM sprocket. Then, with the tool, take up the slack by tightening the tensioner. Now, look at the Timing mark at the flywheel..... should be dead-on or very close (half tooth more or less). If so, tighten everything down and then rotate engine two turns by using the appropriate tool at the end of the crankshaft. Now, look at flywheel timing marks...... should be dead-on. If dead-on, make sure all bolts are torqued properly. Remember, I believe the Cam bolt torque spec has been increased from 33 foot pounds to 43......... CAUTION: you need to double check this.

If the above procedure did not result with Timing marks aligned properly, try procedure again.

Hope this helps.

1) relax
2) take your time

thanks and oh yeah im taking my time. the main thing i am always worried about is the cam sproket slipping over time because there is no key between it and the cam shaft. that just seems like a foolish way to make it and only to have one bolt in it instead of 3. sigh, tomarrow is a new day of which i will try this all again . Where would i check for the updated torque spec on the cam sproket? dealer ship? I was thinking of calling up one of the gurus for it. Hopefully they are nice enough to share some of there knowledge. i had actually torqued my cam down to 38 ft/lbs incase my wrench was under, i use two torque wrenches to check one another.

Anyways thanks for the speedy responses and your experience.

Why did you pull the IP pin before tensioning ?

edit: maybe I read your post wrong, you need to have the pump pinned and the pump sproket bolts loose when tensioing.

Recheck the work sequence - the locks/pins should stay installed until the belt tension is set. I can't tell if you did that or not.

Don't worry about the pulley. The most important thing is that the mating surfaces are clean and smooth. There should be no galling or dirt on any surface, and a few extra ft-lbs won't hurt.

Keys don't do anything to secure a pulley to a shaft - they are designed to fail in systems that can't tolerate extreme shock. Otherwise, they are purely for alignment purposes and bear no load. The taper, cone, whatever you want to call it fitting in use is perfectly strong, and when properly used, is not prone to failure.

ultrasparc said:

Why did you pull the IP pin before tensioning ?

edit: maybe I read your post wrong, you need to have the pump pinned and the pump sproket bolts loose when tensioing.

Click to expand...

I agree you don't pull the IP pin when tightening the tensioner, but not about loosening pump sprocket bolts -- he's got a 98 Jetta, not sure if you were thinking something else. At any rate, I didn't do any such thing with mine.

Havvok, the half tooth off at the IP pump -- that's where you can try pushing down on the locking pin, it has enough play that it will allow the IP sprocket to move sufficiently to engage the belt.

oops, my bad

I assumed ALH

Yeah i have a mk3 jetta tdi with the AHU engine.

I took the pin out of the ip because step for in the replacing of the tb calls for the pin to be removed and then immediately followed by tightening of the tensioner.

So here is what ive done, I relocked the cam and ip pump in place and set the crank to tdc. tigten up the tensioner while ip was still locked and the cam bolt lose. After using th spaner wrench on the tension and torqueing it down to 15lbs i then checked crank tdc and it was still at tdc. Now i locked down the cam at 38 lbs (added 5 lbs to the 33 the bently calls for) and check tdc one last time and it was still tdc. Ok so then i unlock everything and turn it 2 revolutions at the crank.

i check to see if everything lined up again. I was off by 3 teeth at the crank (towards the firewall) when the cam and ip were locked in place again.



this just seems wierd. So now what i tried just to see what would happen is i took everything off again and with the cam and ip locked in their respected positions and setting the crank tdc ahead 2 teeth of tdc (towards the radiator) so that when the slack is taken up by the crank it would meet up with everything.

I bolted everything back up and turn the crank another 2 revs and now im off by one tooth (well 2 mm plus a tooth off) towards the radiator. I just cant seem to get these three things to line up well. Im taking it slow and not rushing but im somewhat surprised.

I doubt the cam sproket is slipping on its shaft. Im missing somthing that is probly simple.

is it ok to run it while its one tooth at the fly wheel off? does this offset get worse with each revolution, IE increase in the amount off eventually leading to the meeting of valves to pistons?)

thanks again fellas. Im still enjoying this job, not at the point where i hate life and wana die...not yet anyways .

I think by re-pinning the pump you are pulling on the belt a little. Did you try only inserting the cam lock to verify the position?

yes, the cam is the first thing i lock into place with 1 mm feeler gauges under each side. the pin slips in with out any wiggling but the crank ends up being off by that 1 tooth.

I used a big screwdriver to lock the flywheel and the ALH gave me no trouble. I don't see any reason why AHU would be any different.

On my B4 I had a heck of a time getting it all lined up the first time.

I ended up going "backwards" just a tad on the crank so the tp nad some wiggle -room to slip onto the ip sprocket with the pin in. Otherwise I would always be off on the timing mark.

I GOT IT!!!

Ok heres what i did. See the prob was i was always off by some insanely small amount like 2-4 teeth at the fly.

So what i did was this, i loses everything and started over again.

Cam locked in place, ip locked inplace,

Next

ok cam sproket off, tensioner on, I then made sure the belt was wraped around the ip sproket and intermdiate pully. I then looked at the crank which i had set at tdc and the belts location on the crank sproket. i figured my problem was i couldnt get all the slack out of that area of the belt between the intermdiate pully and crank, it would alway skip.

SO where the belt was sitting on the sproket with out any tension on it, i move the belt off and move the sproket towards the firewall freely like one tooth. I place the belt back on and then use 19 mm socket on the crank sproket to turn torwards the radiator to take up the slack and it did. Holding it inplace iwth one hand i then use my left hand to get the cam sproket on and put the bolt in finger tight. now all the slack is entirely at the tensioner.


I check the tdc marks on the fly and it lined right up. I can move the fly a little with a screw driver either side. So with it at TDC i tension the tensioner with the spanner and torqued the bolt to 18 lbs and locktite. I then torqued down the cam.


2 Revolutions later it still meets up and everything, locks goes in with out a fight and the tensioner tit and notch meet still meet each other.

I check the torque on all the bolts and nuts and they are good to go. So is that a good way to take care of the prob?

I tried everything before that, even setting the fly 2 teeth forward or back of tdc to try and compensate for the slipping, moving the ip pump pin to allow the ip to move a little, even sacrificed a good size chunk of my hand to the car gods.

Im going to give it a few more revs to make sure it keeps right on target and a knock or two with the starter.

put the rest of the stuff on too. Thanks everyone. here are some pics





Thats not far off right?




I was surprised when i found this, what cause that kind of damage?

Congratulations on the successful TB change! And, those are great pics to prove it!

Congrats, ... but I'd like to see some more pics of cam and lifters -- if that is a chip out of the cam lobe I would expect to see some issues with the lifter under it. You might be needing a cam and lifters, in which case your TB comes back off ...

yeah i was looking into that because i was surprised to see it that when when i pop the valve cover off. off the top of my head i did not see any spiderweb fractures on the lifters. Ill get some shots tomorrow to see what you guys think.

HAVOKK,

your Tensioner is tightened BACKWARDS... please do this over. rotating the tensioner CLOCKWISE.

and give Bleachedbora or metalman or any of our good parts vendors a call and get a cam & lifters, your cam is DONE.

I also notice you have a K&N filter in there, scrap it. Stock is better.

really? How?

the tensioner looks OK , it lines up but he didn't rotate the rotating part of it to make it easier to put the spanner on.
but he does love the extra strength loctite

the tensioner is not made to be tightened that way..

please redo it.

did i do it wrong? what is the correct way to do this?

Havvok, I didn't notice that at first, but I'd believe Growler, you do have it backwards vs. mine. That fat raised part of the tensioner with the holes for the pin wrench should be on the opposite side from the notches. I'll hunt for a picture ...

Here, from Drivebiwire's guide:

Wow ok thanks for the heads up, ill get on that tomarrow. what would of happen if i had run it that way? Also i use red lock tite, what would be the best way to get it off with out removing the stud, and if i remove the stud taking it out what would the torque be to reset it? Really thanks for letting me know i did the tensioner backwards. How long do you think the cam has to live?

Im looking into bora and metal sites for the cam and lifters + possible new stud for the tensioner, i have a pm to these guys because i do not see a listing for these parts.

I did how ever find a listing for the cam on http://www.dieselvw.com. Is that a good site to do business with?

I don't see a torque spec on the stud in my Bentley manual. Regarding the tensioner, it says "Turn tensioner CLOCKWISE with spanner (pin) wrench until notch and raised mark are aligned".
Regarding the cam and lifters, it's hard to say without more pics. I can tell you that I had to replace my head because lifters had failed and a couple developed actual holes which the top of the valves punched through. Then I went less than 10,000 miles on a set of used lifters and a used cam that looked fine when I installed them, before they began to show signs of failure. Luckily I caught it in time and only had to replace the cam and lifters. Learned my lesson there ...
You really need to inspect every cam lobe and every lifter carefully. There is probably some damage on the lifter under that lobe, and which was cause and which effect I can't say. I now remove the valve cover and check their condition at every oil change interval, which lets me check the timing too. If you really don't have the $ at the moment and you don't want to pay credit card interest, you could check under there frequently ( you probably would check the timing a couple times soon anyway ). But if your lifters are going, it's really not saving you any $ to put it off. You might want to contact member Franko6 and see if he has a good used cam, but go with new lifters.

well from what i just saw on http://www.dieselvw.com the cam is only 55 bucks and the lifters are 6 bucks each. This seem a little too good to be true so im hoping to learn more about them and waiting to hear back from Bora.

Im going to read my bently on the cam replacement and lifter replacement tomarrow to see if i can do it. This is acutally new to me but things are looking good.

Im defeinitly going to need a new stud for the tensioner. Looking at it witht he locktite on it, im sure it will come out of the block, in one peice thankfully.

After my reading if i think its a bit much for me to do ill lookin in to having a guru do it. The closest one to me on the trusted list is Kraftwerke
10 Rex dr.
Braintree, MA 02184. 56 miles away :-(. Thats if i cant do this and being on the list of trusted tdi mechs, i guess i could trust them.


this tb job is turning out to be a can of worms haha. sure beats replaceing the whole engien. Its still seems fesiable to me to get this all done, cams,lifters,bearings?, tensioner stud, tb. This actually sounding like fun. i must have a warp sense of fun. good thing i have another car to use, sounds like if get the order in for parts monday wont have them for atleast a week.

Again i cant being to tell you all how much i appreicate you taking the time to help me out. I figured the cam was getting old but didnt think that pitting was too bad but again im new to this diesel stuff but to wrenching.

I would want to know the manufacturer of the $55 camshaft; their website doesn't say. When you find out, post here and we'll weigh in. I also didn't like that it was cross-listed with so many engine codes; I think I received one that didn't fit, maybe because of such a cross listing but I honestly can't quite recall -- there were a number of glitches and that might have been one of 'em. BTW, be sure to get a new camshaft seal as well and install it in the right orientation.

Yep, the TB job becomes a can of worms. You probably can do the cam and lifters yourself, with a couple caveats: First, there is some stock-taking to do -- if there's been only a little wear and there's not a lot of little bits of metal floating around, then you're probably ok; otherwise we start thinking about dropping the oil pan and doing even more stock-taking ...

It is possible, though I think not real likely, that abnormal wear may have occurred on the cam journals and inside the bearing caps; this could be obvious, like gouging from bits of metal floating around, or not obvious, like exceeding wear limits or getting out of round. That could get expensive; checking may require some precision measuring tools. Not trying to scare you; your current cam is working without causing obvious problems, so chances are a replacement cam will be fine ... just saying issues can arise here. You might want to assess all this before ordering parts, if such complications would change your repair plans.

Second, you would really benefit from having a service manual. Most people around here recommend the Bentley, which is a bit pricey and in my opinion assumes the reader knows a lot more than Haynes or Chilton manuals usually do. I haven't compared those manuals for this car. But there are lots of details to attend to, including torque values and sequences, keeping your bearing caps in order and in the right direction, etc., so some manual is indispensable.

The lifters are interesting -- getting them out can be fun, and pre-filling them with oil is a workout for your finger!

On the whole, I would say that a guy who can replace his timing belt can also do this, especially with the club here to help.

Havokk said:

I did how ever find a listing for the cam on http://www.dieselvw.com. Is that a good site to do business with?

Click to expand...

http://forums.tdiclub.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=2583382

NO. Cheap Chinese parts.. not recommended AT ALL unless you are looking for an ALH manifold. anything else is a gamble. don't risk it.

call up metalman, impex, bleachedbora, Tdiparts, etc for your parts needs.

Just got a reply from blechedBora, and he can get me a Febi/Bistein camshaft with 8 INA lifters would run you $229 shipped for everything.

so yeah if that is a trusted vendor ill go with it rather than the 55 dollar cam from other site, why risk it? It would defeat the purpose of doing all this preventive stuff n the first place.


Oh yeah and about that tensioner stud, im going to need a new stud, i tried to remove the tensioner today to get everything ready for the new cam and lifters and the stud came out in its entirety. so now i have a stud through my tensioner lol with the nut at one side and the block threads on the other. guess that locktite really works. im hoping i can save my tensioner while trying to remove the nut on the stud. Im glad it is out of the block in one piece. Red lock tite...over kill? im starting to think possibly maybe .


Have to find the part number for bora to get me one. Its funny, i thought to my self, how the hell did i get to this point from a leaky water pump? Its a good thing i like this car, i probably would have shot any other car for far less.

I didnt see a torque spec for the stud in my bently manuel either. Hopefully the parts guys at vw where i live have it, they are usually pretty good at getting torque specs and part numbers but thier service sucks and parts are over price.




The other lobes looked like this, the lobes for cyclinder number 1 (the one on the passanger side) have that little bit of pitting.