Power Improvements on ALH w/ Malone Stage 3

Stuffing

Active member
Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Location
Seattle
TDI
2003 Golf TDI ALH
I finally got around to installing the tune I've prepped my car for today, and I'm somewhat disappointed with the results.

I have DLC 1019 injectors, a VNT17 turbo, Southbend Stage 2 daily clutch, 10mm injection pump.

When I initially installed the tune, I thought it was maybe a little bit better, but wasn't sure if it was placebo. So I re-installed the original tune, did some hard pulls in 3rd gear, put the tune back on, did a few more pulls and didn't really notice much difference in the butt dyno apart from an increase from ~14 to ~18 psi boost on my gauge. Seems to smoke about the same with/without tune.

I'm not doubting that I got the correct tune back and I'm 100% sure I did the procedure right, but I'm curious. How significant was the power difference for other people that have done this? Could there be something going on with my car causing it to underperform? I don't have any engine codes, I average mid-40s MPG, and the car definitely has good torque before and after tune. Just doesn't feel like the advertised +75lbft. Maybe I'm psyching myself out?
 

Stuffing

Active member
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Dec 13, 2017
Location
Seattle
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2003 Golf TDI ALH
Compared to the first engine that died from a bad turbo, it's definitely faster, but that engine had bad performance and was lucky to hit 39mpg all highway before it died so I'm not sure it's a fair comparison. Because of that I don't really have a good comparison to a totally stock engine.



Stock tune to stage 3 tune though, I'm not feeling much difference. Maybe it accelerates a little easier in 5th at freeway speeds?
 

nikolay_ss

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Sep 30, 2014
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Bulgaria
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1.9TDI ALH
I don't know what this tune is like settings, but for 1019DLC, if you drive them at max voltage, you need like 20-21psi to clear the smoke and 1-2 SOI degrees increase, I had very similar setup a few years ago. You can check my acceleration at 5th gear here with your setup - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcp5P9rGrrk
 

Suzuki_dude

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Nov 10, 2017
Location
Manitoba, Canada
TDI
'95 Sidekick
My brothers and I got our sister a malone stage 3 tune and pp520s for Christmas. There's a big difference between that and stock. Butt dyno went front "meh I can live with this power" to "oh yeah I can race people and make them change lanes behind me".
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
Are you comparing to the stock settings? 75 lb-ft should be very noticeable.
bigger nozzles on stock settings means more fuel overall than stock everything

being that it is a vane turbo, the maps are all totally unprepared for the extra fuel though, so you get vane killing EGTs and shaft snapping boost spikes
so, the tune's just as much a longevity thing as a performance one when you start changing out the hard parts

my suggestion for more power? reasonable sized turbo and injectors. 2260 and 5x.280 at least
 

PB_NB

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Location
Vancouver, B.C.
TDI
1999 New Beetle
I have DLC 1019 injectors, a VNT17 turbo, Southbend Stage 2 daily clutch, 10mm injection pump.
This very similar to my setup however, I went with a Malone stage 4 tune to go with a bunch of recent updates.

I have an EGR delete, larger charge tube, larger intercooler, cat-back straight pipe, colt stage 2 cam to list a few things that may be different than yours.

Mine dyno'd at 160 hp and 315 tq.

When I had my VNT15 and Malone stage 3 with the 1019's I was dyno'd around 120 hp and 220 tq.



It sounds like you have the "torque" bug! It is really amazing what these little engines can do.

My next updates will be PD150 intake manifold and 11mm injection pump.

You might want to look at your IQ settings and try lowering the number (in VCDS) to see the results. You need to look at the smoke versus power to find a setting that works for you.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
You should feel a huge difference between stock and a Stage 3 tune from any vendor. With your hardware and the correct tune you should be able to break the front tires loose in 2nd gear. And top gear acceleration should be dramatically better.

Sounds like something's not right, either mechanically with your car or with the tune.
 

Owain@malonetuning

Associate Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Location
Vancouver
TDI
PD jetta wagon
You're not going to see a 75lbft increase over a vehicle that already has injectors installed because it wasn't making stock power in the first place.

next step would be a 3 bar to run a 22-24 psi tune, you're currently tuned for a vnt15.
 

Stuffing

Active member
Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Location
Seattle
TDI
2003 Golf TDI ALH
You're not going to see a 75lbft increase over a vehicle that already has injectors installed because it wasn't making stock power in the first place.

next step would be a 3 bar to run a 22-24 psi tune, you're currently tuned for a vnt15.
This makes sense, the injector nozzles I ordered claim an increase of +20HP and +40TQ, meaning the tune would 'only' give around +35-40TQ or so (plus all the other benefits like MPG).

Still, based on the feedback from others who got the tune I was expecting a larger difference. My MAF and N75 are both nearly brand new, I'll take this opportunity to make sure everything else is in good working order; boost leak test, SOI timing, injector balance, etc. Maybe develop a heavier foot as well.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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You're not going to see a 75lbft increase over a vehicle that already has injectors installed because it wasn't making stock power in the first place.
This doesn't really make sense to me. I would expect a Stage 3 tune on a stock ALH would give you about 225 lb/ft, or a 70 lb/ft increase. I would also expect a tuned ALH with larger nozzles would get you in the 230-240 range, still about a 70 lb/ft increase compared to a stock car with upgraded injectors.

In my experience an ALH with a strong Stage 3 tune will make about 125/225. The same car with a tune and injectors would make about 140/240-250. Best numbers I got from an ALH with stock turbo was my track day Golf with PP520 injectors: it dyno'd at 145/270. But it also had some breathing mods and a larger exhaust.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
This doesn't really make sense to me. I would expect a Stage 3 tune on a stock ALH would give you about 225 lb/ft, or a 70 lb/ft increase. I would also expect a tuned ALH with larger nozzles would get you in the 230-240 range, still about a 70 lb/ft increase compared to a stock car with upgraded injectors.
smoke limit maps and the torque limit map being changed is what gets you more torks from a tune
putting in more fuel than the computer thinks you are by changing the injection hardware out also gets you the same "more torks"

applying a tune set up for larger injectors brings the smoke and torque limit maps back into scale with what fuel you are getting from the injectors (ideally it'd be in the pump voltage map but I kind of doubt it is actually done properly) and then scaled to what the vanes of the turbo and the smoke tolerance of the driver can stand and what the head gasket and clutch can hold respectively
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
What parameters are tune-able on these motors?
everything

you want it to idle at 3600 rpm? sure
want it to fart lots of smoke? sure
want it to run normal wastegated turbos? sure
manual glow plugs? sure
run relatively smoke free with the injector nozzles from a 12v cummins? sure

The CR motors are even more ridiculous, you can inject fuel on the exhaust stroke if you want. I don't play with those though, they're still too spendy.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
smoke limit maps and the torque limit map being changed is what gets you more torks from a tune
putting in more fuel than the computer thinks you are by changing the injection hardware out also gets you the same "more torks"
applying a tune set up for larger injectors brings the smoke and torque limit maps back into scale with what fuel you are getting from the injectors (ideally it'd be in the pump voltage map but I kind of doubt it is actually done properly) and then scaled to what the vanes of the turbo and the smoke tolerance of the driver can stand and what the head gasket and clutch can hold respectively
Not sure what you're saying here. I realize that smoke maps need to be attended to, but the tune should adjust these parameters and still provide a power increase. Keep in mind that ALH engines don't measure EGTs. Of course it's up to the tuner to not set the engine up to self-destruct, but the hardware the OP has won't test those limits with a well written tune.

My Wagon with a Stage 3+ tune (19.5 PSI max), 11mm pump, PP357 injectors, and PD150 breathing has made 140/260 on a very conservative dyno. I have 100K miles on this setup currently with no sign of any engine damage. I also have a '99.5 Golf with Stage 3 and all stock hardware. If you drive the two cars back-to-back the difference is more than significant. That's all I'm saying.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
Not sure what you're saying here. I realize that smoke maps need to be attended to, but the tune should adjust these parameters and still provide a power increase. Keep in mind that ALH engines don't measure EGTs. Of course it's up to the tuner to not set the engine up to self-destruct, but the hardware the OP has won't test those limits with a well written tune.
I'll make it simpler.
big nozzles, no tune-----------unlimited torque and EGT
any nozzles, decent tune----software limited torque and EGT

engine not monitoring EGT does not mean it won't quickly destroy a first gen VNT system, the opposite in fact
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Whatever. I think the tune needs to be looked at, or there's something mechanically off with the car.
 

steve05ram360

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Jul 22, 2008
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all over
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2011 2D Golf
everything

you want it to idle at 3600 rpm? sure
want it to fart lots of smoke? sure
want it to run normal wastegated turbos? sure
manual glow plugs? sure
run relatively smoke free with the injector nozzles from a 12v cummins? sure

The CR motors are even more ridiculous, you can inject fuel on the exhaust stroke if you want. I don't play with those though, they're still too spendy.

thanks...



I tune my CR truck, yeah it is awesome. I use the post event to spool the turbo, works awesome... drops off after about 1500 rpms.
 

Caddy 16v

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Hazelton, BC
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2000 Jetta, 2000 Golf
Back in the day when I went from just .230 nozzles to a stage 3 tune it was quite the difference. Then when I added the 17/22 and stage 5 it was another "whoah" moment, so you should of felt a way bigger difference.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 

Stuffing

Active member
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Dec 13, 2017
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Seattle
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2003 Golf TDI ALH
Sorry for taking forever on an update. I've been without a laptop and now that I've finally got one to do logging and stuff I was able to get some positive results.

I re-did my turbo outlet piping because it was really bad. I got the VNT17 adapter and cut the old house to fit and it's much better now. The old one may have been leaking some boost. At the very least it was probably restrictive.

I also did some data logging with my new laptop and saw my Injection Quantity was set up at 5.6. I dropped it to 3.6-3.8. Immediately after changing that, throttle response and low-end power improved immensely. The car became decently quick. I'll be keeping my eye on EGTs.

DBW LLC's site says that I should be using IQ of 5-7 for DLC1019s... Could something be holding back my fueling and I just increased it back as a workaround? Timing is currently set according to DBW recommendation (slightly advanced).

As for the other logs, boost requested vs actual and MAF specified vs actual matched up pretty good. Anything else I could be logging to look for potential problems?
 

Nero Morg

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OR
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Every cars iq will vary. Especially if you have a 10mm pump vs 11mm. If you're happy with it, I'd leave it. Otherwise, you didn't mention if you have a 3bar map or not. That'd be the next step. Don't forget to have the tune adjusted for it.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Does the car smoke a lot on hard acceleration? If it does, you can raise the IQ again. If it doesn't, I'd lower it further until it does start to smoke. Also keep an eye on FE, although it should not be affected.
 

Caddy 16v

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I'd bump it down to 3, no reason to have it at 5-7 other than a bit less smoke possibly.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
Every cars iq will vary.
this

bump it around until the transition from no fuel is smooth, that is the ONLY thing you should be adjusting the pump topcover position for, everything else is done in the maps
 

Stuffing

Active member
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Location
Seattle
TDI
2003 Golf TDI ALH
I'll keep messing with it till it's perfect. Thanks a lot for your help, everyone.

I've still got the stock MAP sensor. If I get everything dialed in perfectly and I'm still not satisfied, I'll think about going to 3bar + next stage tune :D
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I like to set the IQ in VCDS to 32768 (default) and then hammer the pump until that setting shows an IQ of about 3.0. Then adjust up or down electronically from there.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
jhax said:
By this comment, are you referring to physically letting your foot off the accelerator and having the engine slow the car down on its own or something else?

Thank you,
Justin
when the control collar is in the wrong spot relative to where the computer thinks that zero fuel is, you'll get a surge/chug at the transition from overrun to fueling
its kinda like trying to putter around at idle with a hunting mechanical governor 'rump rump rump'

so you bump the topcover around until the control collar is in the right position for this transition to be smooth
it is usually close enough with the rule of thumb numbers on stock software, but with aftermarket software you can never be sure, as some of them will leave the pump voltage map alone while setting up a file for larger injection hardware, meaning your 6mg/str figure in the scan tool is actually more like 30 mg/str going in, this can make the idle setup extra finicky
 

jhax

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96 Passat B4V, ALH engine out of a 2002 Jetta, some IE Rods and ASV Pistons. Nothing drivable yet though
So i want to lean it out a bit more by hammering the IP to the drivers side. My idle sounds good it's just that 0-10% throttle where it sputters. Or i can increase the number in VCDS.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
just tap it around until it feels right, it's real hard to screw up enough to hurt anything
the topcover o-ring might start leaking after you move it, no big deal to replace it if it does
 
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