NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

manual_tranny

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There's a new document out on the NHTSA site that has the VW Engineering Analysis (EA11003)

This document requests information on HPFP failures from Mercedes Benz.
//http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2011/EA/INPR-EA11003-48540.pdf

Not sure why NHTSA is expanding their analysis to include other manufacturers. My guess is that they want to determine if Mercedes Benz is having similar issues with HPFP failures, in order to narrow down the cause of the VW issue.
WOW! They are squeezing Mercedes for every drop of information they have about HPFPs, lubrication, testing, design, etc. The list of questions is incredibly thorough!

My hat is off to Frank S Borris, (Director of "Office of Defects Invesitgation) and Jeff Quandt, (the investigating engineer.) Nice work, fellas!
 

Trooper81

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In 2005, BMW in Germany had a similar problem with their diesel pumps and initiated a recall after a few thousand 3,000+ of their Bosch pumps failed. Audi was affected as they had the same pump as was Chrysler I believe. I think the only problem is that mercedes failures have been relatively low. The same with the new Duramax CR diesel engine, and the new Powerstroke CR CP4.2. I can count only 2 or three from each of those manufaturers, as well as 2 or 3 q7's or touareg tdi's that have had this failure. You would think since this is the same family of pumps you would have mass failure across all models especially since they're selling tens of thousands of the Chevy and Ford Diesels.

I'm curious if the same letter has be sent to BMW, Chevy, and ford.
 

bhtooefr

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The Mercedes pump is fairly irrelevant to the VWs, as it's the old CP3.3. (However, the filtration system is obviously still relevant, and if push came to shove, Bosch may be able to upgrade the old CP3.2 to 1800 bar spec, and use it on VWs.)

The only US-spec vehicles that are currently relevant to compare to VW, as far as the pump goes, are the 2011+ 6.7 PowerStroke, and 2011+ Duramax, which use the CP4.2.
 

Trooper81

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Yeah i'm not sure what they're trying to figure out with the mercedes inquiry. But as mentioned in 2005 when BMW had their recall, it was the CR HPFP units by bosch that were affected. Vw wasn't affected because at the time were still invested with PD injection systems. I think NHTSA would get more useful information from BMW in Muenchen than from Mercedes in N/A. Unless mercedes has had a ton of failures that I am not aware of.
 

Ski in NC

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That's a whole lot of info being requested by NHTSA of MB. And it's not even MB cars in the focus of the investigation. Some choice words probably spoken when that thing plopped on someone's desk!!
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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The Mercedes pump is fairly irrelevant to the VWs, as it's the old CP3.3. (However, the filtration system is obviously still relevant, and if push came to shove, Bosch may be able to upgrade the old CP3.2 to 1800 bar spec, and use it on VWs.)
The only US-spec vehicles that are currently relevant to compare to VW, as far as the pump goes, are the 2011+ 6.7 PowerStroke, and 2011+ Duramax, which use the CP4.2.
IMHO, the relevancy of the IR is with respect to misfuelling and quality of diesel fuel (not the MB pump per se). It seems that with this IR that NHTSA likely believes there is a safety issue with the VW 2.0 CR TDI and is gathering facts to likely dispute VW's assertion that there is nothing wrong with the design of their HPFP and the problem is contaminated diesel fuel.

We'll have to wait until at least Dec. for MB's responses.
 

bhtooefr

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The relevancy of the BMW HPFP failures to the VW HPFP failures is roughly equivalent to, oh, the relevancy of the price of tea in China to the VW HPFP - the BMW HPFP failures are all (or almost all) on gassers, which use a completely different fuel as far as the characteristics for an HPFP (requiring a completely different design), at far lower pressure, and the problem there is ethanol-related.

AFAIK, BMW isn't having problems with their diesel HPFPs, which are the CP3.3, just like Mercedes.
 

manual_tranny

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I think it has relevance because the questions drive at the heart of fuel testing, system testing and analysis. Many of the questions ask about Mercedes' set of policies when customers come in with a failed pump. I'm interested in knowing what differences are found between MB and VW policies. Mercedes may have a better quality control system in place than other manufacturers.
 

wreck111

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I'll play the numbers game here for a second . Bosch has sold over 3 million of these cp4.2 hp pumps since 2010 , even at a 10% failure rate that would mean 300,000 cars and trucks would be in shops with this problem . Even at a 1% failure rate thats 30,000 units that would be effected.

From what i could research , 3 superduty's, a handful of audi's ,some jeep's with the 3.0 diesel, and the vw tdi's. Total i give you maybe 10,000 cars and trucks with this pump have failed and thats on the excessive side. That's less than 1 percent. Which from a manufacture's point a 99% product success rate does not constitute a design flaw.



BS...
 

bhtooefr

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The Jeeps are running the CP3.3, unless it's the currently unreleased in the US VM Motori 3.0-powered version. Relevant to Mercedes, as the existing Grand Cherokee CRDs use the same Mercedes OM642 V6 engine as the Mercedes diesel lineup in the US does, less so to VW.

What years of Super Duty? The only pickups using the CP4.2 are the 2011+ PowerStroke and Duramax.

Also, the VW and Audi 4-cylinders are using the single-piston CP4.1.
 

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WHEN: December 11th (?). Coincides with Ferdinand Alexander Porsche birthdate. He was born 11 December 1935
Wow, he was quite the child prodigy to have been commissioned to develop the Beetle just prior to WWII!! Oh wait, wrong Ferdinand Porsche. You are probably referring to the patriarch Ferdinand Porsche (sorry, you missed his birthday) or Ferdinand Piëch (you have a number of months ahead of his b'day to plan a protest :rolleyes: ). Better to go after VWoA CEO Johnathan Browning (June 21st), VW Group president Martin Winterkorn (May 24th) or VW Group Executive Director of Powertrain Engineering Wolfgang Hatz (d.o.b. ?)
 

Trooper81

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The relevancy of the BMW HPFP failures to the VW HPFP failures is roughly equivalent to, oh, the relevancy of the price of tea in China to the VW HPFP - the BMW HPFP failures are all (or almost all) on gassers, which use a completely different fuel as far as the characteristics for an HPFP (requiring a completely different design), at far lower pressure, and the problem there is ethanol-related.

AFAIK, BMW isn't having problems with their diesel HPFPs, which are the CP3.3, just like Mercedes.
No you are WRONG in 2005 BMW had a recall on their BOSCH HPFP CR DIESEL engines, it has full relavency, you don't know about this because it happened in Germany as i mentioned. It also stopped the Production on the chrysler lines because of their same diesel HPFP.
 

truman

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It would seem to me that it is very relevant how other pump designs are performing in the field and how the manufacturer has responded to failures. It provides some sort of baseline to evaluate the problems with VW diesel pumps. If VW is claiming that it is only a fuel problem and not a design problem, comparisons may validate or nullify that position.
 

wreck111

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I had a question regarding the Bosch CP 4.1 diesel pump as i read on a VW forum there had been some failures with the cam and follower .
The pump is lubricated by the fuel so it occured to me that fuel quality could effect the reliability of the pump .
Got this reply from Bosch technical dept .
Incidentally i didn't ask a leading question with regard to the expensive diesel types ..
Subject: RE: CP 4.1 common rail diesel pump
Fuel additives are definitely important! It is not easy to recommend particular fuel brands though, but the special fuels (eg excellium) that the major fuel brands sell at a slightly higher price than standard diesel, should be beneficial even if only used periodically.
 

CedarPark68

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When I worked at the State level for an Engineering agency, they would get pissed with requests like these ..... this request is very complicated, very long and requires a huge amount of man hours.

The fines per day are real and the last thing M would want is to make the papers on this as they are not the company in focus.

Hats off to NHTSA.

Sorry that Mr. Benz has to be brought into, but all the better.

M. will essentially tell everyone that there is NO ISSUE with the way THEY DO THINGS.... which will include them dispelling the BS that is poor US Fuel, OR at least noting how they overcame US Fuel issues.

NHTSA will then be able to squarely come back to VW and say, US Fuel is not an issue, gas should not cost 8k to recover from, fix the pumps.
 

bhtooefr

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Interesting, although it looks like the affected pump was the CP3.3, which isn't what's failing on US fuel.
 

kjclow

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Does the MB use Bosch as well? Maybe VW is going to throw Bosch under the bus. Just a thought.....
Would that be a Micro-mini bus:D? Since GM and Ford are seeing hpfp pump failures with their Bosch pumps, I wonder if they will also get this request.
 

Trooper81

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Would that be a Micro-mini bus:D? Since GM and Ford are seeing hpfp pump failures with their Bosch pumps, I wonder if they will also get this request.
those failures are so small in comparison and even from what i've seen probably half are water/fuel contamination.

interestingly they already have a tsb at ford with instructions on various steps to diagnose hpfp failure

I wish we would know more about what was causing the failures of the BMW CR hpfp pumps in 2005. To me it sounds like a manufacturing or materials defect. The only details we have is that the cp3.3 had dramatically shortened lifespans. The answers to this would probably answer all of our questions in regards to the CP4.1 pump. Although it's not the same pump, there is a good chance that similar problems are causing the shortened lifespans.
 

Niner

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Does the MB use Bosch as well? Maybe VW is going to throw Bosch under the bus. Just a thought.....
CP3 pump, I think, in the MB, lubed by crank oil or something, on the cam lobes surface, not D2. Maybe Drivbiwire can comment.

That number after CP is the generation of Common Rail pump in the Bosch lineup. Ours are CP4
 

Trooper81

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the CP3 was problematic even while being lubed by oil. Bosch fixed the problem and since then they've been problem free. That's basically what needs to happen now with the CP4.1 I don't believe the CP4.2 has shown to be problematic enough to warrant a fix yet, but if whatever is causing the .1's to fail is also being applied to the .2's Then they might as well Recall them both.
 

kjclow

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those failures are so small in comparison and even from what i've seen probably half are water/fuel contamination.

interestingly they already have a tsb at ford with instructions on various steps to diagnose hpfp failure

I wish we would know more about what was causing the failures of the BMW CR hpfp pumps in 2005. To me it sounds like a manufacturing or materials defect. The only details we have is that the cp3.3 had dramatically shortened lifespans. The answers to this would probably answer all of our questions in regards to the CP4.1 pump. Although it's not the same pump, there is a good chance that similar problems are causing the shortened lifespans.
Is there any place like NHTSA in Gremany or Europe that would have details that caused the recall? Although even if we have that information, it would probably not tell us how the BMW pump was redesigned.
 

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bhtooefr

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With the help of Google Translate, I'm getting the following out of those articles (guessing based on some context, when there's mistranslations):

First article: BMW stopped production (about 3600 cars were delayed) and recalled cars due to HPFP lifespan being shortened, and it affected DaimlerChrysler and Audi as well, although Audi didn't stop production.

Second article: DaimlerChrysler stopped production and replaced that production with gassers, Bosch claims that a vendor's coating failed, C, E, and S class are affected. Audi only had problems with certain batches. VW's only affected vehicle was the Phaeton. Opel's 6-cylinder engines aren't affected due to using a Japanese pump, but their 4-cylinder engines use a smaller version of the affected pump (I'm assuming Bosch CP3.2 vs. 3.3, here). Opel did testing, though, and hasn't found any problems.
 

timwagon

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Thanks for the translations. Looks like Google translate is a work in progress.

Or should I say looking to be progress in the translate would be working even now.
 

tico27464

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Wow, he was quite the child prodigy to have been commissioned to develop the Beetle just prior to WWII!! Oh wait, wrong Ferdinand Porsche. You are probably referring to the patriarch Ferdinand Porsche (sorry, you missed his birthday) or Ferdinand Piëch (you have a number of months ahead of his b'day to plan a protest :rolleyes: ). Better to go after VWoA CEO Johnathan Browning (June 21st), VW Group president Martin Winterkorn (May 24th) or VW Group Executive Director of Powertrain Engineering Wolfgang Hatz (d.o.b. ?)
Well, "OVA" could conceivably be swarming the streets of Herndon for multiple passages of these dates, awaiting a suitable response...:eek:
 
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