Timing/Economy Question

kroy1247

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2018
Location
GEORGIA
TDI
2003 JETTA 5-SPEED WAGON
I recently had a timing belt done on my 2003 Jetta Wagon (manual), by the dealer, and I've noticed a couple of things. The did do injection pump timing as well. They said it was out.

First, power is diminished slightly. Second, I'm not getting the economy I once was. I'm calculating 40 hwy as opposed to about 47-48 before the belt. Third, the idle is a little rougher than it once was, just a hair, but I noticed. And, it's overall just not as smooth it seems, especially at 2k RPM.

I took it back in. They checked just the tension and everything's fine they said.

I know these engines are sensitive to timing. So what I'm thinking is that they may have put everything back to spec, in terms of the ECM settings...idle, timing.

Should I maybe pick up a VAG-COM and make some fine tune adjustments? Could I dial in the idle a bit better and advance the timing electronically, just slightly, to see if there are improvements? Other options? Thanks in advance...:D
 

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
Even before checking the injection timing with VCDS, I would check to verify if the static timing is and was done properly. Dealerships seem to have a poor reputation of getting things right.
If you are doing the same driving routine and logging your fuel mileage calculations correctly that's a lot of difference to attribute to just the variance of the injection timing "adjustment" window amount.
 

Powder Hound

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Joined
Oct 25, 1999
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Under a Bridge, Crestview, FL, USA
TDI
'00 Golf 4dr White 5sp, '02 Jettachero 5sp, Wife's '03 NB Platinum Gray auto(!)
... Dealerships seem to have a poor reputation of getting things right...
Which is why I go to dealers - for dealer only parts. That's all.

Dealership mechanics get pushed to flag more hours constantly, hence the real 'standard' they use is best described as 'good enough' rather than as good as humanly possible. Like TDIjarhead says, that's why so many of us get the real thing.

I'd would counsel you to get one and then check the mechanical timing first, to ensure the cam, pump, and crank are spot-on timed to each other. Then you can plug in the VCDS to see where the static timing is on the graph. Once that is set, the ECU won't let you dial in advance as it will retard it back to spec if you try to advance it.

You might want to check other stuff such as tire pressures. Sometimes people think they're doing you a favor when they screw things up.

Cheers,

PH
 

kroy1247

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2018
Location
GEORGIA
TDI
2003 JETTA 5-SPEED WAGON
Thanks all. Further calculations show that I'm in the ballpark of 43, now, but I've really had to change my driving style to get to that point. Something is obviously different.

I'll report back where I land.
 

kroy1247

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2018
Location
GEORGIA
TDI
2003 JETTA 5-SPEED WAGON
Which is why I go to dealers - for dealer only parts. That's all.

Dealership mechanics get pushed to flag more hours constantly, hence the real 'standard' they use is best described as 'good enough' rather than as good as humanly possible. Like TDIjarhead says, that's why so many of us get the real thing.

I'd would counsel you to get one and then check the mechanical timing first, to ensure the cam, pump, and crank are spot-on timed to each other. Then you can plug in the VCDS to see where the static timing is on the graph. Once that is set, the ECU won't let you dial in advance as it will retard it back to spec if you try to advance it.

You might want to check other stuff such as tire pressures. Sometimes people think they're doing you a favor when they screw things up.

Cheers,

PH

Just to clarify, do you mean that if I want to advance the timing to see if it improves economy, I need to do it mechanically, not electronically?
 
Last edited:

kroy1247

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2018
Location
GEORGIA
TDI
2003 JETTA 5-SPEED WAGON
Another peculiar change in performance, that may illuminate what i'm dealing with....when I stomp on the gas around 2k RPM, there is much more black exhaust than before. Before the timing belt it was much cleaner burning.
 

Vince Waldon

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Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
If you have the means you might want to pull the timing belt cover and look for tell-tale paint dots that suggest the timing belt was installed using short-cuts. The ECU has control over IP timing but not valve timing, which can cause power and smoke issues if not set correctly.

Or, even better might be to track down the timing jigs, pull the valve cover, and confirm TDC alignment from scratch.
 

kroy1247

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2018
Location
GEORGIA
TDI
2003 JETTA 5-SPEED WAGON
If you have the means you might want to pull the timing belt cover and look for tell-tale paint dots that suggest the timing belt was installed using short-cuts. The ECU has control over IP timing but not valve timing, which can cause power and smoke issues if not set correctly.
Or, even better might be to track down the timing jigs, pull the valve cover, and confirm TDC alignment from scratch.
Thanks Vince. Interesting. I'll take a look again at it. When the service manager and I looked at the belt before the work (I had pulled the cover to see the tension) he pointed out paint dots that had been used before. My impression was that was not the method they were going to use. But, who knows right? I'll pull the cover again and see if I can see any evidence of that, and dig a bit deeper when I get the time. Ugh, I miss that little bit of extra power and the better economy. Although it's not terrible, it is noticeably different.
 

Vince Waldon

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
It's a good sign that he knew to look for paint marks and to point out that they are a bad sign. :)

Hopefully, no such marks on your brand-new timing belt. :D
 

kroy1247

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2018
Location
GEORGIA
TDI
2003 JETTA 5-SPEED WAGON
It's a good sign that he knew to look for paint marks and to point out that they are a bad sign. :)
Hopefully, no such marks on your brand-new timing belt. :D
Hopefully. He did make a point with regard to the IP timing, with regard to the quote. They weren't sure if it needed to be done. Turns out it did need to be set apparently, and that added to the final bill. I kind of wish they had just left it now...
 

Curious Chris

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Joined
Jun 11, 2001
Location
Pineview GA
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 RIP Rockford IL
With VCDS there is a built in injection time checker graph. With the engine warm you launch it. It is the graph from the Bentley. Most feel that mileage is best below the midline, performance better above the midline. Easy (sortof) to change timing: you loosen the 3 bolts on the injection pump pulley, and IIRC put a 22mm wrench on the nut, towards the front of the car advances, towards the rear of the car retards. From the top of the graph to the bottom is maybe 2 degrees of rotation.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I recently had a timing belt done on my 2003 Jetta Wagon (manual), by the dealer.
Not the best idea.

I'd take it to Rich:

Repairs at Richard's
1571 Keencheefoonee Road
Rutledge, Ga 30663
541-980-1466

and have the car set up correctly. Static timing is important on these cars, as is how the pump timing is set. A poorly set up car will show the symptoms you describe, and it's unlikely you'll get any satisfaction from the dealer.

Chalk the additional cost to fix it as a lesson learned.
 

Vince Waldon

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
They weren't sure if it needed to be done. Turns out it did need to be set apparently, and that added to the final bill. I kind of wish they had just left it now...
It will be affected by installing a new timing belt so:

- I don't know why this was optional and then "added to the final bill"... it's part and parcel of changing a timing belt
- it was not possible to "leave it alone" and do the belt, so at least you don't need to mourn what you never could have had. :) :)
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
check your camshaft timing

injection timing out far enough to affect how the engine runs will set codes, you've got a few degrees window on mechanical IP timing before it runs out of advance piston travel in either direction, and even then it'll just clip off the upper or lower ends of the timing map, not where you'll notice an economy change.

you also may notice hard starting as the timing control isn't operational until there's case pressure, but cam timing will do that just as well
 

Vince Waldon

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
Mark & Pray.

Mark (the sprocket, the belt, etc) and then Pray (that it's close enough and no damage happens) :) :)
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
LOL. the American V-8's are a lot more forgiving. Dots and done.

Hehe, you've not worked on many of the newer ones then, have you? ;) And by newer, I mean stuff that is now several decades old. The Ford Triton engines, the Cadillac Northstar engines, the ChryCo 4.7L Powertech engines, and the newer Chevrolet V8s with all their vario-cam vario-valve nonsense. Talk about a clusterfudge... :eek:
 

Nevada_TDI

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Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
OP, I hate to bring this up but it is worth a look: look at the parts bill for the timing belt job and check the list against any one of our vendors timing belt kits to see if the same items were used when your belt was changed. It is not super common of late (that I know of) but a while back the dealers weren't replacing all of the rollers and 40k miles later when one or both of the old guide rollers seized, the timing belt broke destroying the top half of the motor; of course the broken timing belts had nothing to do with the "quality" of the work the stealership did...
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I believe a timing belt service at a dealer consists of replacing the belt and tensioner. No rollers, serp belt or water pump, and most dealers don't renew the single use mount bolts. Of course the invoice should list the parts replaced.
 

ToxicDoc

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Location
Virginia, US
TDI
2001 Jetta, S7, .216
Hehe, you've not worked on many of the newer ones then, have you? ;) And by newer, I mean stuff that is now several decades old. The Ford Triton engines, the Cadillac Northstar engines, the ChryCo 4.7L Powertech engines, and the newer Chevrolet V8s with all their vario-cam vario-valve nonsense. Talk about a clusterfudge... :eek:
When I learned auto transmissions, for example, they had 3 speeds, and the Mustang had *just* changed from a carb to EFI. ;) And I've always been an amateur. I did work with the local hotrod builder who also was my auto tech teacher and got to work on neat (now very old) stuff - 60's Mopars and Mustangs, a Pantera, a real Cobra, '52 T-bird etc.

The electronics I learned on my own. The tech has gotten even more complicated and expensive in the past 2 decades - special scan tools, electronic controls for everything (really, the license plate lamp needs to be connected to canbus? Srsly?? for a license plate? ) How many coolant hoses does a TDI have? A dozen or so? Let's talk about the AC circuit? Crazy the unnecessary complexity it has.

Each manufacturer has also made their tech more exclusive. So now if I own 5 brands (which I do lol) I need so many more special tools. and to do what, one job maybe? So then, I have to weigh if it's worth buying the tools and my work hours vs just paying a pro.

I did bearings on my Ford Explorer for example- $350 worth of extra tools (mostly presses and seal installers) if I bought them outright. I babied the truck for several months and eventually pieced together the tools from Ebay and other tool makers for about $50. But it took a lot of extra effort/searching. and for a job I will likely only do once, ever.

So I read. I chose my jobs carefully. and I've gotten rid of most of my "projects" leaving only the Jetta as my hobby. It's still fun to learn about the stuff though.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Yes, it absolutely has gotten very complex... and I agree in many cases needlessly so.

And every time I come across some arrangement that seems to make it simpler, they drape five other things on top of that.

Just had a Prius in here that had more codes hidden away than a WW2 German U-boat captain. Seriously, of the 16 modules, 12 of them had faults. :eek:

I think this is why my field has really dropped off recently in "new recruits", because now over half of the auto tech class drops out after just a few weeks. Seriously, these kids are lost. I feel old saying that, too, but it's true. The new guy we hired a while back is right out of school, and while he has a good attitude, he struggles with some basic common sense things, and what is worse is he does not always even know when he needs to ask someone more experienced for help or even an opinion on a plan of attack. :(
 

Curious Chris

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 11, 2001
Location
Pineview GA
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 RIP Rockford IL
https://www.caranddriver.com/featur...tments-are-scrambling-for-technicians-feature

Our TDIs (even the new ones) aren't terribly complex compared to some of the vehicles that are currently in service. And it's not easy to find people to take care of them.
I remember an article about 10 years ago saying that working on engines had turned into rocket science. My first car a 1968 Ford Custom with a 302 cubic inch, carburator, points controlled distributor was a gear head dream: won't start? hit accelerator pump and see if you have fuel, got fuel? Crank and check for spark at one spark plug, got spark? if it didn't start it is timing.

Now on my 2002 I pull out VCDS and do a scan then go to the Ross-Tech Wiki page for guidance. Yes it is not that easy any more but I have adapted.
 

Vince Waldon

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
Our TDIs (even the new ones) aren't terribly complex compared to some of the vehicles that are currently in service.
Yup... just have to remember that they unlike the typical American V-8 from the past they are interference engines and as such are designed to manage the space between the valves and the pistons very very carefully. :)

So... a little bit of respect when doing the timing belt and all is well. Bluff thru it with a yellow paint stick and you takes your chances. :):)
 

Vekke

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Location
Finland
TDI
Audi A8 with 1.2 TDI VW Lupo 3L --> 2L (retired)
I would like to point out that even if you use oem tools to put timing to correct spec the OEM accepts +-3,0 tolerance for the torsion value. If you havent checked what the torsion value was before the belt change the odds are very tiny that it will go exactly same even if you do everything by the book as previous changes might not have used the tools and many other things effect to end result.



Just 0,6 degrees difference in tosion value has huge effect to your fuel consumption.


What you should do is try to find the best value for your car. Lowest idle fuel consumption gets you in the ballpark, but best FE value can be 2,0 degrees off from that value. If you have found the best value mark it to the cover and ask in the next service that they will adjust it to the same value.
 

kroy1247

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2018
Location
GEORGIA
TDI
2003 JETTA 5-SPEED WAGON
Not the best idea.

I'd take it to Rich:

Repairs at Richard's
1571 Keencheefoonee Road
Rutledge, Ga 30663
541-980-1466

and have the car set up correctly. Static timing is important on these cars, as is how the pump timing is set. A poorly set up car will show the symptoms you describe, and it's unlikely you'll get any satisfaction from the dealer.

Chalk the additional cost to fix it as a lesson learned.

Thanks for this referral. When I get the car back to Atlanta I'll give Rich a call to see if it can be dialed in a bit better. If anyone knows anyone in southern Idaho, that can really dial it in, I'd be interested.

The car's performance has been acceptable, but yeah, it was better before. Drove it across the country to Idaho, no problems....but the MPG wow factor was not the same as when I drove it from California to Oregon. Not a huge difference, but still...noticeable.

Thanks everyone for the intel.
 
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