Complicated EGT talk etc.

TheoSweden

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Location
Uppsala, Sweden
TDI
A3Q,A4Q, Passat Biturbo TDI
I seem to have come to a point where my engine isnt making any more reliable power. What I mean by that is that foremost my EGTs is getting to hot if we(me and my tuner) get the power any higher.

Some of you have followed my project and know pretty well what parts I have... My changes to this year is a new exhaust manifold, and stock intake manifold again. Looks like this:



With the same tune as last year, I got exactly the effect I was hoping to get, much better response and not so laggy turbo/spoolup meaning less smoke when changing gear etc. 28mmID pipes and almost as short as possible, not the best collector, but not that bad eather if you ask me:) Have no better pictures I'm afraid..

After some testing we can now make the car run very good, and also be pretty fast witout any problems, I had spoolup problems last year wich now is gone away with a correct working map sensor. So far so god.

My "problem" is that this car is going to be used on the circuit a few (hopefully many) times, and to have a big engine failure is not an option.
The chassis, tires, breaks is pretty fast on this car and a much stronger engine might fit good.
This makes it possible to take out maximum power almost all the time wich put STRESS on the engine, not even close to the stress that is possible to get on the street(Autobahn not included:D)
And... I can only have around 220hp(butt dyno) before EGT wants to reach 900deg pretty fast even on the street! 900deg.C seem to me as some kind of maximum EGT to be safe. Right/Wrong?

At this powerlevel my car is almost smoke free accept lowest gears and gear changes, I like that... But if we try a bit more fuel and so, 240-250 hp is no problem, and to make my Helix cluch(now sintered) slip is possible also! But the downside is mainly EGTs and the big black clowd behind the car.

So what do you guys think is the best for me to do? Both me and my tuner think my engine should perform better but something is limiting me. Or am I just to wimpy and should be harder to the engine?:confused: Water/meth injection? Better intercooler and piping? change back to D24 intake?

I'm realy glad if you could give me some advices what to do to get this wonderful power I can have, but with great reliability!

Just ask if something is unclear...

//Theo
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
I'd definatly go back to the D24 intake.. if your egt is to high for the power you have, it can have some reasons//

1. to long injection window
2. wrong timing (too late)
3. not enough air (boost)
4. to much EMP
5. bad atomisation
6. a combination of these
 

vwmikel

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 5, 2005
Location
Las Vegas, NV
TDI
'94 Golf Sport TDI
A contributor to your problems may also be that turbo. There was a reason why I abandoned it. How much boost are you running?
 

orion2.0

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Location
syracuse, NY
TDI
2002 golf tdi
yeah...why did you remove the d24 manifold and go back to the stock manifold? I would think the d24 would flow more air = lower egt's.

Maybe try a bigger IC or water injection.
 

ArturCosta

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2003
Location
Portugal
TDI
Audi A4 Avant 1996 Silver
orion2.0 said:
yeah...why did you remove the d24 manifold and go back to the stock manifold? I would think the d24 would flow more air = lower egt's.

Maybe try a bigger IC or water injection.
I was going to say that.
From what I remember from your project you have more less the same IC I have... if so I would suggest you to change it as its not the most efficient for the power your wont to get.

A "simple" ibiza cupra intercooler would get you over 230bhp with that turbo with "normal" EGTs.

The Air Fuel ratio on this cars also make a huge diference , from your videos I can say you are not smoking enought (I was read you talking about bad portugues tuners... but its seems like now you get it!).
Let it smoke a bit more at the high end and you will probably lower the EGTs enought.

Regards
 

vwmikel

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 5, 2005
Location
Las Vegas, NV
TDI
'94 Golf Sport TDI
ArturCosta said:
Let it smoke a bit more at the high end and you will probably lower the EGTs enought.
I think you have it backwards....more smoke = higher EGT's.
 

ArturCosta

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2003
Location
Portugal
TDI
Audi A4 Avant 1996 Silver
vwmikel said:
I think you have it backwards....more smoke = higher EGT's.
Im talking about more smoke... not MORE SMOKE! :D

If you have unburned fuel on the turbine it will cool it... off course if you have too much it will not help.

I can show you some cars dynoing without smoke and you can see flames out of the exhaust... once you let it smoke a little EGTs go down buy a significant amount then you just have to get the correct A/R.

Regards,
 

ndamico

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Location
Sacramento, CA
TDI
2003 Golf 2Dr TDI, 2003 Jetta TDI, 2003 Jetta Wagon TDI, 2002 Duramax, 2003 Duramax
Bigger turbo, and run straight water only if you have to.. BUT NO METH.. water alone works great for cooling as long as you don't you too much. but my guess is your turbo is just too small or inefficient.

twins could be possible too. they work well for heavy towing applications to reduce EGT.
 

Farfromovin

Torque Addict
Joined
Apr 9, 2005
Location
Ventura, CA
TDI
03 Golf 2dr- PD150 6m
I follow Ruben's train of thought. However, if your tuner is at his wit's end, you'll need to step up the turbo to alleviate those problems. A nice snow performance w/m kit could help lasso down EGT's though. When my W/M was working, it was like an EGT brick wall. A controller that ran off a thermocouple input would be best IMO. I'm probably looking at going that route soon as well.
 

vwmikel

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 5, 2005
Location
Las Vegas, NV
TDI
'94 Golf Sport TDI


This is the compressor map for the BMW GT2260V. Notice that it is already at 145,000 RPM to make a 2.6 pressure ratio (about 23 psig) yet that drops significantly as flow increases. We need more in the range of 25-30 lbs/min but that area drops off to a max pressure ratio of ~1.9-2.3 (13.23-19.11 psig). So, efficiency just falls off a cliff right where we need it. This turbo seemed like a good way to go when all I had to go off were educated guesses, but in retrospect I would steer clear.
 

TDIfreak

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2001
Location
Finland
TDI
Multivan AHY, Golf CFFB DSG, A6Q 4F 2.7 TDI CANC, 7 meter boat with ALH.
Rub87 said:
So Theo should mount another compressorwheel on it..

Still waiting for somebody to try this baby :D it might carry some inertia, but if you can make enough revs with a good head and cam^^

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/images/catalog/Turbochargers/gt32_images/GT3267_452234_comp.gif
This is already tested by someone here, with smaller exhaust housing. 1,5 bar EMP and over 2 bar boost. Spool up is after 2500 rpm, closer to 3000.
It will be tested in my dyno as soon as the car is moving again (not used in the winter). Better get that CRC belt grip a few bottles ;) .
 

TDIfreak

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2001
Location
Finland
TDI
Multivan AHY, Golf CFFB DSG, A6Q 4F 2.7 TDI CANC, 7 meter boat with ALH.
vwmikel said:


This is the compressor map for the BMW GT2260V. Notice that it is already at 145,000 RPM to make a 2.6 pressure ratio (about 23 psig) yet that drops significantly as flow increases. We need more in the range of 25-30 lbs/min but that area drops off to a max pressure ratio of ~1.9-2.3 (13.23-19.11 psig). So, efficiency just falls off a cliff right where we need it. This turbo seemed like a good way to go when all I had to go off were educated guesses, but in retrospect I would steer clear.
Where did you get this :) ?
Notice how the map is cut and the top is not shown. I don't know why this is, some maps at turbobygarrett are like this and others not.
A little imagination with the map and the wheel looks a lot better :D .

But still changing the wheel or the whole turbo could be a way to get less EGT and more power for the track. I'd pick either GTB2260vk or some wastegate turbo like the 3267 or GT2871R.
 

TDIfreak

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2001
Location
Finland
TDI
Multivan AHY, Golf CFFB DSG, A6Q 4F 2.7 TDI CANC, 7 meter boat with ALH.
Useing one such wheel and hearing from others, we all are way past the map shown :D .
And still no blow ups.
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
TDIfreak said:
This is already tested by someone here, with smaller exhaust housing. 1,5 bar EMP and over 2 bar boost. Spool up is after 2500 rpm, closer to 3000.
It will be tested in my dyno as soon as the car is moving again (not used in the winter). Better get that CRC belt grip a few bottles ;) .
Yes, but one should put it on a nice vnt turbine for optimal spool :)
 

TheoSweden

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Location
Uppsala, Sweden
TDI
A3Q,A4Q, Passat Biturbo TDI
Wow thanks guys!:)

Mojo... You are maybe right even tough this turbo is ~45mm on the turbine exducer and 60mm on the comp.

Rub... I can probably try D24 again without much problems.

1. Relatively short injection, My R783 gives huge amount of fuel.
2. We have tested a few different timings, and earlier gets the EGT lower, that was noticeable.
3.Tested 1,9-2,1 bar
4.EMP is realy low, follows a bit under boost pretty all the way trough the spoolup and never gets higher than boost. in 4th gear 1,6bar at 2300rpm is no problemo...
5. Might be, lower injection pressure with those nozzles, and "destroyed" pistons like many here have...
6. Probably:)

orion2.0 and ArturCosta...
I wanted to test that again in search for better response, and my plan somewhere in my head was to change back to D24 later to see the difference again.
Change IC and maybe look into water injection is something I've been thinking of for long time, will not install a cupra intercooler, because the design on that one is worse than I already have.
Please Artur post movies from those cars with no smoke and fire from exhaust.
We have tryed to make it smoke both little more and MORE, I see EGT go up by every step...

And Mikael, This turbo was a guess for me also as you know, and I could never expect it to be this "bad" on paper. At high revs I'm overspinningit all the time! I will seriously look into something else, in my eyes and with my knowledge of compressormaps this look horrible!

Though this turbo was recommended by TDIFreak among others;) Have you seen any good results with it Arttu?


Thanks for good answers guys!
 
Last edited:

hatemi

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2005
Location
Finland
TDI
Audi A6 4F 3.0TDI
I have a hunch that a GT30+67VKL hybrid might be for sale soon. The WG version is very good option too if you dont mind a bit of smoke and real power starting from 3k or so. Good turbo for track use with a VE engine and 6k revlimiter.
 

shadowmaker

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Location
Finland
TDI
2.5TDI
vwmikel said:


This is the compressor map for the BMW GT2260V. Notice that it is already at 145,000 RPM to make a 2.6 pressure ratio (about 23 psig) yet that drops significantly as flow increases. We need more in the range of 25-30 lbs/min but that area drops off to a max pressure ratio of ~1.9-2.3 (13.23-19.11 psig). So, efficiency just falls off a cliff right where we need it. This turbo seemed like a good way to go when all I had to go off were educated guesses, but in retrospect I would steer clear.
I think someone had his luchtime when he was supposed to draw the upper part of that sheet.:rolleyes: 145krpm is the limit, right...

Theo, if you can keep your EMP low, then I'd say it's not the turbo holding you back. That compressor is capable for more than the turbine.

I have encountered some serious engineering hickups with my builds over the years as these things aren't ment to be tuned from the factory's point of view. Last week I found a new one with my old setup. Maybe 10-20% power loss because of that alone...
 

TheoSweden

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Location
Uppsala, Sweden
TDI
A3Q,A4Q, Passat Biturbo TDI
shadowmaker said:
I think someone had his luchtime when he was supposed to draw the upper part of that sheet.:rolleyes: 145krpm is the limit, right...

Theo, if you can keep your EMP low, then I'd say it's not the turbo holding you back. That compressor is capable for more than the turbine.

I have encountered some serious engineering hickups with my builds over the years as these things aren't ment to be tuned from the factory's point of view. Last week I found a new one with my old setup. Maybe 10-20% power loss because of that alone...
Yeah compressormap is for sure strange...
I do got low EMP, always lower than boost, and at 5000rpm it is the same as boost.

What do you think is the hickup in my engine then:)?
 

TheoSweden

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Location
Uppsala, Sweden
TDI
A3Q,A4Q, Passat Biturbo TDI
hatemi said:
I have a hunch that a GT30+67VKL hybrid might be for sale soon. The WG version is very good option too if you dont mind a bit of smoke and real power starting from 3k or so. Good turbo for track use with a VE engine and 6k revlimiter.
Something like that should probably be good for a real track car. Tough I only wants to rev to 5k, but 3-5k isnt that bad with much power in that area:) please let me know if it gets for sale!
 

vwmikel

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 5, 2005
Location
Las Vegas, NV
TDI
'94 Golf Sport TDI
TDIfreak said:
Where did you get this :) ?
Notice how the map is cut and the top is not shown. I don't know why this is, some maps at turbobygarrett are like this and others not.
A little imagination with the map and the wheel looks a lot better :D .

But still changing the wheel or the whole turbo could be a way to get less EGT and more power for the track. I'd pick either GTB2260vk or some
wastegate turbo like the 3267 or GT2871R.
That compressor map came from a guy at Garrett R&D. I asked him about it as well because I thought it a little odd and he assured me that was the speed limit of this turbo. Perhaps there are some aerodynamic problems above this RPM.

And, by comparison, look at this compressor map:


I asked for the Mercedes GT2359V map which he could not find, but said the dimensions are pretty much the same as this compressor map. Irrespective of the speed limit on the BMW turbo, notice how at only 155,000 RPM it is able to push more than a 2.8 pressure ratio (26.46 psig). This turbo will be much more efficient at higher flow/pressure ratios.
 

TheoSweden

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Location
Uppsala, Sweden
TDI
A3Q,A4Q, Passat Biturbo TDI
vwmikel said:
That compressor map came from a guy at Garrett R&D. I asked him about it as well because I thought it a little odd and he assured me that was the speed limit of this turbo. Perhaps there are some aerodynamic problems above this RPM.

And, by comparison, look at this compressor map:


I asked for the Mercedes GT2359V map which he could not find, but said the dimensions are pretty much the same as this compressor map. Irrespective of the speed limit on the BMW turbo, notice how at only 155,000 RPM it is able to push more than a 2.8 pressure ratio (26.46 psig). This turbo will be much more efficient at higher flow/pressure ratios.
Jonas 2359V Seem to work much better than mine, so that is probably true! Hard to know what to do now...:) My head wants one thing, but my wallet and right foot want something else!
 

vwmikel

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 5, 2005
Location
Las Vegas, NV
TDI
'94 Golf Sport TDI
TheoSweden said:
Jonas 2359V Seem to work much better than mine, so that is probably true! Hard to know what to do now...:) My head wants one thing, but my wallet and right foot want something else!
Yes, with the dimensions of the GT2359V, it looks very promising as well:



I have one on my car and will be testing it soon :)
 

vwmikel

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 5, 2005
Location
Las Vegas, NV
TDI
'94 Golf Sport TDI
TheoSweden said:
Yeah compressormap is for sure strange...
I do got low EMP, always lower than boost, and at 5000rpm it is the same as boost.

What do you think is the hickup in my engine then:)?
The pressure may be good, but the air temps are probably very high so the density is very low and causing the smoke/high EGT's.
 
Top