More TDI Fuel Injector Information

S

SkyPup

Guest
My previous post on the VW 1.9L ALH TDI Engine Fuel Injection Equipment:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

VE pump Type Bosch VE VP 37
Plunger dia. 10mm
Lift cam c1000 = 1.2 m/s
Pre-lift 0 mm
Cutoff cross-section 2 x 4 mm
Constant-pressure valve 60 bar /dia. 0.7 mm

Injector - Dual spring version, minimum dead volume
Lift I : 0.06 mm
Lift II : 0.25 mm

Nozzle P-type, VCO-nozzle
Hole dia. 5 x 0.21 mm
Pressure stage 4 x 2.2 mm

Opening pressure
PI :l80bar
II : 330 bar
Delivery angle 150°
Length of hole 1.0 mm

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Data from the 5-Cylinder 75kW VW T4 TDI Engine:

Bosch VE VP 37 Fuel Injection Pump
Injectors - Bosch P442
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Data from the 5-Cylinder 111kW T4 TDI Engine

Bosch VE VP 37 Fuel Injection Pump
Injectors - P764

Injector - Dual Spring version, minimum dead volume
Lift I : 0.06mm
Lift II : 0.25mm

Nozzle P-type, VCO-nozzle
Hole dia. 5 X 0.216 mm

Opening Pressure
PI : 220bar
PII : 300bar

---------------------------------------------
Christi, it appears that the T4 5-Cylinder 111kW TDI engine has the exact same Bosch VE VP 37 Fuel Injection Pump as our 1.9L TDI's do. The nozzles also match our 1.9 TDI's exactly too. The new upgraded high output fuel injectors on that motor are the "BOSCH P764" units. Does your European parts database have any information on these "High Output" Bosch fuel injectors? They would be a simple upgrade to any TDI 1.9L 4-cylinder produced since 1990, since they all utilize the Bosch VE VP 37.

I also have a list of all the Mercedes, BMW, Citroen, Renault, Fiat, Alfa, etc. 4-cylinder European diesel engines that also utilize the Bosch VE VP 37 Fuel Injection Pump.

If you could get ahold of these 111 kW T4 fuel injectors, I would be happy to purchase some!
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Here is why I think this simple larger injector bolt-on may work very well with no changes at all to the ECU, especially if the new injectors are only a little bigger than standard.

With the MAF telling the ECU what mixtures are being run in most conditions and with the ECU capable of self-learning, a good long drive may be all that it takes for the ECU to compensate for the new injectors' flow rate. Over-rich mixtures run for a short time won't do any damage, and the ease and cost-efficiency of this approach leaves everything else behind.

The most likely requirement for these larger injectors would be that the output of the major load sensor (MAF & MAP) will need to be changed. If the ECU thinks that there is less load than there really is, it will reduce the pulse width (opening time) of the injectors. This reduced pulse width, coupled with the bigger injectors, means that the right amount of fuel can then flow.
In other words, if the ECU thinks that only enough fuel for 50hp is needed while a demand for 70 is actually required, it will pulse the injectors to provide 50hp of fuel. However, with the bigger injectors in place, enough fuel flow for 70hp will actually be injected! So, making the computer sense a lower engine load than is actually occurring will straighten-up the microprocessor and make the higher fuel quantity levels flow. Remember that in out TDI engines, power is directly proportional to fuel quantitiy!
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Read about the upgrade of the 75Kw engine to the 111kW engine here, look at the BOSCH VE VP 37 Fuel Injection Pump table with the list of the changes made to increase the fuel quantity to accomodate the increased power output!

[url="http://tran...ttp://www.tuneline.at/tuneline/news/VW-T4.htm"]http://translator.go.com/cb/trans_entry?input_type=url&lp=ge_en&lo=en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tuneline.at%2Ftuneline%2Fnews%2FVW-T4.htm[/url][/url]
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
With all due respect, the injection pump that we have is a positive-displacement device. The quantity of fuel behind the cutoff sleeve is the quantity that gets injected regardless of the injector.

The injection may occur at a different *pressure* but the *volume* of injected fuel won't change, the way I see it. According to the specs, the only difference appears to be higher initial opening pressure and lower secondary opening pressure, the difference between 0.21mm and 0.216mm holes (a) is very slight and (b) could be due to someone cutting off the last digit when typing...

Brian P.
'96 Passat TDI
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Brian, I believe that at all time the VE37 is supplying an over abundance of fuel to the injector. The injector only uses what it fills up with, the rest is returned to the pump and then the tank. These other TDIs produce more kW per cylinder with the exact same pump, the turbo is upgraded for more airflow and pressure, the intercooler is increased in volume to handle that, and the injectors are increased in fuel quantity delivery rate (volume delivered per unit of time) to flow more fuel since the other upgrades are worthless without more fuel.

I believe the pump can easily handle more injector flow with larger injectors.

You are right though, in the the 5-hole nozzles are the same size, so therefore maybe more flow is impossible without more pressure. But, it certainly is worthy of a more complete investigation. From what I understand, replacement injectors sets only cost about $150, so could be a very worthy investment if it works as I imagine it could.
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
*

[This message has been edited by SkyPup (edited July 27, 2000).]
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
That's a cool animation ... of a GDI (gasoline direct injection) engine! NEAT!!

I suspect that the injection pumps with different part numbers have a different shape to the cam that moves the plunger back and forth, they might have a longer maximum effective stroke (or inject a greater amount of fuel over the same number of crankshaft degrees of rotation) as a result, but this is purely speculation ...

Brian
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Thanks Christi, it sure takes alot of time to try to learn anything about these engines over here on this side of the Atlantic, I really appreciate your assistance. Now if I only had a password to the BOSCH TDI database with all this information so I could log on and print it all out!!!

This Site has the VW TDI CD-ROM containing everything and anything we wish to know and yearn to learn, somehow somwone has got to send me a copy!!!!!

http://www.boschservice.com/
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
CD-D: Your information foundation for diesel assemblies and replacement parts.

Demand for ever-higher levels of metering precision is reflected in increasing complicated diesel injection systems. The levels of technical expertise needed to repair and service these systems are rising at the same time. CD-D from Bosch provides precise information for professionals, extending from data on individual spares to exploded illustrations showing diesel equipment assemblies. This CD also contains the ESI installation program, so operations that focus on diesel service can use it without loading CD-A.

CD-D: Comprehensive component coverage with exploded drawings

CD-D from Bosch lets you keep accurate tabs on the right replacement parts for Bosch diesel assemblies. Exploded drawings are often vital for identifying spares. This CD provides them - a simple click calls up clear and concise displays with assembly group assignments and a comprehensive listing of spare parts (with over 35,000 entries) along with order numbers. Extensive comparisons let you identify diesel assemblies based on their components.
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
WHERE THE HELLO CAN I GET THIS CD?????????



CD-W: The diesel specialist's test spec. program.

CD-W from Bosch gives you test specifications for approximately 7,000 in-line pump combinations, with 10-digit Bosch order numbers, along with roughly 500 distributor-type pumps. This comprehensive service tool compliments CD-D (basic information for diesel assemblies) while also relying on it as its operating platform. To profit from CD-W's full range of features you will need Windows '95 and a 586 processor (e.g., Pentium).



CD-W: Test specifications and more for diesel assemblies

With CD-W you get the display you need at the click of a mouse. The on-screen data include portrayal and assessment of the test results, comparing them with specifications and also highlighting out-of-tolerance results in red. The program can also process test data by calculating averages and scatter ranges where required. All data are clearly correlated to facilitate comparisons, while deviations and tolerance violations are specially marked. When presented to your customers this test protocol will document your firm's high level of technical and professional competence in the area of diesel ancillaries.
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Christi, I was able to get this data off the German Robert Bosch site. It is for a GOLFIV model 1.9L TDI engine, one is the 90HP ALH exactly as what we have here in the US, and the other is for the 110HP AHF as what you have in Europe. You will note, there ARE different parts numbers for the injectors and springs!
You will also note the Bosch VE VP 37 Fuel Injection Pump is IDENTICAL
! The only difference is the manual tranny pump uses a 10mm plunger whilst the auto tranny has an 11 mm.

Please check this info out on your end and see if this is what you conclude. If so, I can purchase a set of 110HP injector overseas and install them on my US spec TDI
!


VW (VOLKSWAGEN) Golf IV 1.90 Liter 66KW (90HP); Limousine; Motor: ALH

Nozzle-and-holder assembly (2 springs) 0432193732
Nozzle change not possible in nozzle-holder assembly with needle motion sensor

Nozzle-and-holder assembly (2 springs) w. NBF 0432193734

Distributor-type fuel-lnJ pump WE 4/10 E 2075 R 700) 0460404977 For vehicles with manually shifted transmission

Distributor-type fuel-inj pump (VE4/1 1 E2075R712-1) 0460414989 For vehicles with automatic transmission
---------------------------------------------

VW (VOLKSWAGEN) Golf IV 1.90 Liter 81 KW (110HP); Limousine; Motor AHF

Nozzle-and-holder assembly (2 springs) w. NBF 0432193744

Nozzle-and-holder assembly (2 springs) 0432193746 Nozzle change not possible in nozzleholder assembly with needle motion sensor

Distributor-type fuel-lnJ pump WE 4/10 E 2075 R 700) 0460404977 For vehicles with manually shifted transmission

Distributor-type fuel-inj pump (VE4/1 1 E2075R712-1) 0460414989
For vehicles with automatic transmission
 

Electron Man

Active member
Joined
Jun 23, 2000
Location
Tuscaloosa, AL
Skypup,

If I'm not mistaken, the AHF (110HP) motor has 20:1 compression, while the ALH (90HP) motor has 19.5:1 compression.

Probably won't make much difference though; I'd suspect that less than 10% of the additional 20HP and ??lbft of torque could be attributed to the higher compression.

Source: wetterauer.de

Keep up the R&D!


[This message has been edited by Electron Man (edited July 27, 2000).]
 

diesel des

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 19, 1999
Location
Belfast,NI
Election Man, I believe the 90 and 110 are both the came CR of 19.5:1. I think its a mistake on the web site. A higher output turbo diesel generaly has a LOWER CR. Eg the VW race tdi ran 18.5:1. My tweeked TDI now has a CR of 18.7:1.

Skypup, to sum up, what exactly do you thing the diffrence in the injectors are? Is it that the higher output versions have a lower injection pressure? I suppose this would be one of the reasons that they are dirtier engines. They do hace the same holes though?

Going by the info you gave, it may be possable to convert 3 of the 90 injectors to 110 with a diffrent nozzle and spring, but you need to buy a number 3 injecter due to the lift sensor.

I can give you a contact for the 110 injectors. It is the same place i got my injectors and parts car. Email me if interested.

[This message has been edited by diesel des (edited July 28, 2000).]
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Diesel Des, it appears that the only difference is the shim thickness for the springs to increase injection quantity, the opening pressure does not appear to have anything to do with fuel quantity and is mostly for emissions purposes. To date, this is the only reasonable theory left, however it does seem to hit a dead end as there is absolutely NO WAY you can change out three injectors and leave the #3 signal injector alone, it would unbalance the engine.

One thing is apparent to me however, the 90HP ALH & 110HP AHF both have the same displacement, same fuel injection pump, same turbocharger, and same MAF sensor. IMHO, only the ECU fuel maps and injector shiims are different. I should be able to add 20HP with a set of these injectors.

I'll talk to you next week via email after I do some more research and hear back from Christi about what he thinks. I'll also check into the turbo questions you asked too.
 

Turbo Steve

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 11, 2000
Location
.
The compression ratio in each ALH engine can vary slightly. Since the pistons protrude a little bit ABOVE the cylinder and into the cylinder head, VW makes four different sized head gaskets to offset the small differences in how far the pistons protrude into the combustion chamber. During assembly, a set of four pistons are evenly matched together and one of the four head gaskets (that varies in thickness) is selected to keep the compression ratio at or near 19:1.
 

JLL

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 7, 1999
Location
Howell, MI
GoFaster, you are correct in describing the control of fuel. Fuel is basicly an incompressible fluid. Don't be discouraged by our experts.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoFaster:
With all due respect, the injection pump that we have is a positive-displacement device. The quantity of fuel behind the cutoff sleeve is the quantity that gets injected regardless of the injector.

The injection may occur at a different *pressure* but the *volume* of injected fuel won't change, the way I see it. According to the specs, the only difference appears to be higher initial opening pressure and lower secondary opening pressure, the difference between 0.21mm and 0.216mm holes (a) is very slight and (b) could be due to someone cutting off the last digit when typing...

Brian P.
'96 Passat TDI
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 

JLL

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 7, 1999
Location
Howell, MI
Increasing flow area in the injector without increasing pump displacement or flow will destroy engine efficiency and power.
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Diesel Des, here is the info on the Garrett VNT 20 turbocharger:

Compressor Whel - C105
Compressor Trim - 55
Turbine Housing - Type D
Turbine Trim - 72
Max Pressure - 510kg/hr
Max Speed - 180,000 rpm


The key fact to remember about the VNT turbos is that only the turbine assembly has been changed for A/R ratio etc. Garrett had just spent considerable R&D on redesigning the compresssor wheels for the GT series by lowering the weight of the wheel, changing shaft diameters, and customizing the shape of the wheels. The same turbocompressor wheels are used in the newer VNT models, only the turbine sections have been changed. Look at the Garrett compressor tables carefully and you will see what I mean.

In the meantime, has anyone figured out the BOSCH part numbers for the 110HP TDI in comparison to the 90HP TDI???????

HELP!!!!
 

CRG

New member
Joined
Jul 10, 2000
Location
Madison, WI, USA
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JLL:
GoFaster, you are correct in describing the control of fuel. Fuel is basicly an incompressible fluid. Don't be discouraged by our experts.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At the high pressures of modern injection systems, the fuel can no longer be considered an incompressible fluid. Not all of the fuel that the pump sends to the injector is injected. Some high pressure fuel is trapped in the fuel lines and injector after the injector needle closes. The constant pressure delivery valve then releases enough of this fuel back to the pump to reduce the line pressure to 60 bar.

However, I am not convinced that changing injectors alone will have any significant effect on the amount of fuel injected. I suspect that the amount of fuel returned to the pump is small compared to the amount injected.
 

christi

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 22, 1999
Location
Ruislip, Middlesex, UK
TDI
Peugeot 806, 607
I hope that this is the info that you wanted.

1998 Audi A6

6 cyl AFB 2.5 litre TDI
Injectors #1,2,4,5,6: 059 130 201
#3: 059 130 202

4 cyl AFN 1.9 litre TDI
Injectors #1,2,4: 028 130 201 T
#3: 028 130 201 S

1997 Audi A6

5 cyl AAT 2.5 litre TDI
Injectors #1,2,3,5: 046 130 201 E, 046 130 201 EX, 046 130 201 EV
#4: 046 130 202 E, 046 130 202 EX, 046 130 202 EV

5 cyl AEL 2.5 litre TDI
Injectors #1,2,3,5: 046 130 201 F
#4 046 130 202 F

1998 Golf

4 cyl AGP, AGR, ALH 1.9 litre TDI
Injectors #1,2,4: 038 130 201 G
#3: 038 130 201 F

4 cyl AHF 1.9 litre TDI
Injectors #1,2,4: 028 130 201 T, 028 130 201 TX, 028 130 201 TV
Injector #3: 028 130 201 S, 028 130 201 SX, 028 130 201 SV

The part numbers for the injection pumps are not the same.

These are VW part numbers, I have no way of correlating them with Bosch part numbers.

Have you asked an injection specialist whether he can re-shim the injectors that you already have ?

------------------
1996 Passat Tdi estate (wagon (variant))
See my Peugeot / Passat site
 

PWM

Veteran Member
Joined
May 10, 2000
Location
Western Siberia (Finland)
SkyPup:

"The same turbocompressor wheels are used in the newer VNT models, only the turbine sections have been changed."

Shouldn't it be vice versa !?! - Usually the turbine & shaft and it's housing is the same .. and the differences are on the compressor side.
If the turbines (and VNT-mechanism or housing) differ then it's really expensive and difficult modification. (But the aluminium compressor wheel and housing is easy to lathe .. And you could begin with the biggest wheel and stock housing.)

This time I really hope You are wrong ;-)

Ps. Goin' to get 110hp TDI tomorrow !!
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
thanks Christi, I've printed this out and am working on it. Diesel Des is also confirming as to the Bosch part numbers too.

PWM, sorry to disappoint, but yes the compressor housing and wheels are almost identical, only the A/R of the turbine housing the VNT turbine wheel is different than on the wastegated GT versions. Read all of the data in this post to see what I mean,
http://forums.tdiclub.com/NonCGI/Forum4/HTML/001312.html . It is condensed from published Garrett Turbocharger publications describing the developmental work of creating the VNT turbos for commerical OEM applications, more data is available from BMW, MB, Audi, Peugeot, Fiat, Audi, etc. you have purchased this design for installation and sale on their vehicles.
 

PWM

Veteran Member
Joined
May 10, 2000
Location
Western Siberia (Finland)
SkyPup - Which one it is GTVNT15-46 or -49 !?!
(Do 90hp and 110hp differ ?)

It seems that the first number means only the vnt-assembly & unmachined turbine housing size. So both wheels differ ..
(Ie. Cannot make GTVNT15-49 out of -46 - at least not easily.)

It would be interesting to see the effects of different sized and profiled compressor wheel & housing on the exact same turbine. (Race & tuning guys are using this kind of approach.)

Perhaps I should do a library search ..
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
The one on our North American ALH A4 1.9L TDI's is the VNT15 (which in the charts is listed as the VNT17 (for some strange reason the VNT15=VNT17)). Re-read that entire post once again, all the information and links that you need to learn from are there.
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Christi - Here is the information on the Bosch VE Distributor Diesel Fuel Pump Mechanisms that I mentioned:

http://www.sae.org/products/books/bookinfo/boschtech_06d.htm

Table of Contents

Combustion in the diesel engine
The diesel engine
Diesel fuel-injection systems: An overview
Fields of application
Technical requirements
Injection-pump designs
Mechanically-controlled (governed) axial-piston distributor fuel-injection pumps VE
Fuel-injection systems
Fuel-injection techniques
Fuel supply and delivery
Mechanical engine-speed control (governing)
Injection timing
Add-on modules and shutoff devices
Testing and calibration
Nozzles and nozzle holders
Electronically-controlled axial-piston distributor fuel-injection pumps VE-EDC
Solenoid-valve-controlled axial-piston distributor fuel-injection pumps VE-MV
Start-assist systems Introduction

The reasons behind the diesel-powered vehicle's continuing success can be reduced to one common denominator: Diesels use considerably less fuel than their gasoline-powered counterparts. And in the meantime the diesel has practically caught up with the gasoline engine when it comes to starting and running refinement. Regarding exhaust-gas emissions, the diesel engine is just as good as a gasoline engine with catalytic converter. In some cases, it is even better. The diesel engine's emissions of CO2, which is responsible for the "green-house effect", are also lower than for the gasoline engine, although this is a direct result of the diesel engine's better fuel economy. It was also possible during the past few years to considerably lower the particulate emissions which are typical for the diesel engine. The popularity of the high-speed diesel engine in the passenger car though, would have been impossible without the diesel fuel-injection systems from Bosch. The very high level of precision inherent in the distributor pump means that it is possible to precisely meter extremely small injection quantities to the engine. And thanks to the special governor installed with the VE-pump in passenger-car applications, the engine responds immediately to even the finest change in accelerator-pedal setting. All points which contribute to the sophisticated handling qualities of a modern-day automobile. The Electronic Diesel Control (EDC) also plays a decisive role in the overall improvement of the diesel-engined passenger car. The following pages will deal with the design and construction of the VE distributor pump, and how it adapts injected fuel quantity, start-of-injection, and duration of injection to the different engine operating conditions.
 

rhiger

Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2002
Location
UK
SkyPUP, I have a UK Seat Cordoba 1.9TDI which is the exact same engine out of a UK spec Golf or Passat (90bhp), I have had it upsoluted and am running a Pipercross cone filter. apart from this, I have no other engine mods, I have been tempted on a number of occasions to buy the .205's but know that I might suffer clutch problems
, can you give me a little enlightenment as to what I would have to do to achieve this upgrade?? I have read alot of your threads and have been very interested in what you've had to say, can you also give me the bosch number for the injectors??

cheers

scott
 

SVTWEB

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2001
Location
Beyond Comprehension
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI Cup-Edition EVO 4-Motion
SkyPup.... Maybe YOU can help an elusive question that I have.

I own a 2002 TDI 5-speed (soon to be 6) with the ALH motor.



In 2002 the ALH ECU was changed to allow the use of Immobilizer III (038 906 012 FD). After many hours of research I determined that the only difference between the ALH and AHF were the Injectors (.205), ECU (038 906 012 L) and oil cooler. After acquiring the above items I was confronted with the fact that the AHF ECU is NOT Immobilizer III compatible.... Back to the drawing board.

In 2002 VW Changed the 110HP TDI to the ASV engine code. After more hours of research I discovered that the differences were Injectors, ECU, Oilcooler, and Turbocharger. The Turbocharger difference was not really a difference at all. They use the same turbocharger as us with the exception of the VNT screw adjusted differently. The rest of the items can be acquired and installed with ease.

My question is, What are the specification for the injectors in the ASV motor. Below are the VW number and the Bosch number. I would like to know if I need to ditch my .205's and get them, or are the .205's close enough....

ASV 1,2,4 - 038 130 202 A - 0432 193 594
ASV 3 - 038 130 202 B - 0 432 193 592
 
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