.216 stage 3 malone tune

munly

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Mar 23, 2013
Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
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2002 Golf TDI, 5 Speed
i had this combo done yesterday (2002 golf, five speed). since doing these mods the car has an inconsistent idle and a significant shudder/shake under load from 0 - 2800 rpm. the mechanic that did the nozzles played with the IQ but couldn't solve the issue. and i had to leave for work with the problem remaining. does anyone have any suggestions as to what i might be able to do to make the car drive-able again. thanks.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
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Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Detune it. Or REtune it.

You may have to physically adjust the pump if the IQ values cannot get to a happy spot with Adaptation alone.
 

munly

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Joined
Mar 23, 2013
Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
TDI
2002 Golf TDI, 5 Speed
i'm thinking about de-tuning. i live in Vancouver, so i went directly to Malone's shop/office to get the tune done. i did the nozzles just before the tune, and the short distance i drove from the mechanic to Malone the car seemed fine (no shutter). the problem arose after the tune.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
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Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
i had this combo done yesterday (2002 golf, five speed). since doing these mods the car has an inconsistent idle and a significant shudder/shake under load from 0 - 2800 rpm. the mechanic that did the nozzles played with the IQ but couldn't solve the issue. and i had to leave for work with the problem remaining. does anyone have any suggestions as to what i might be able to do to make the car drive-able again. thanks.
The mechanic did what with nozzles?

I'd be checking for injector leaks: fuel as well as seating in/to the head. Also look at fuel return lines. Next would be IQ. "playing" with things isn't professional; and, without knowing what was done it's kind of hard to eliminate the IQ setting as being responsible.
 

munly

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Vancouver, BC, Canada
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2002 Golf TDI, 5 Speed
did the nozzles = installed the nozzles. they were pop tested before the install. it took a few attempts to get the injectors to seat, but they appear to be fine. no leaking. what leads me to think its a fuelling issues is that the short distance i drove with just the nozzles (and no tune) there was no shutter/shake.
 

Kevinski4

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Location
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Replace those junk eBay nozzles with quality ones and your problems will go away. Seen it several times before.
 

Owain@malonetuning

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Location
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PD jetta wagon
Detune it. Or REtune it.
Wasn't the software, IQ was moving around 2-3 points at idle, then stable sometimes. It did not run properly and was driven under a km before putting the tune on. Offered to remove the tune, but that's not going to fix the car.
 
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UhOh

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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
did the nozzles = installed the nozzles. they were pop tested before the install. it took a few attempts to get the injectors to seat, but they appear to be fine. no leaking. what leads me to think its a fuelling issues is that the short distance i drove with just the nozzles (and no tune) there was no shutter/shake.
That's a pretty flip answer.

It matters WHAT nozzles and WHO did the mounting and calibration. "pop tested" means squat. Do a search and see for yourself where similar situations have gotten people.

And, "it took a few attempts to get the injectors to seat." I've done three sets and never have had a problem with an initial seating: I did have one loosen up, but that's an outlier (one out of twelve).

"what leads me to think its a fuelling issues is that the short distance i drove with just the nozzles (and no tune) there was no shutter/shake"

That's pretty much all backwards.
 

UhOh

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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Wasn't the software, IQ was moving around 2-3 points at idle, then stable sometimes. It did not run properly and was driven under a km before putting the tune on. Offered to remove the tune Mark, but that's not going to fix the car.
Do/did you folks scan for codes? Wondering whether there could have been some showing that the IP is wonky. IQ jumping around is not good. Sounding like money was spent on the wrong thing.
 

Owain@malonetuning

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PD jetta wagon
Of course. No codes, car wasn't running well enough to log, sent him back to the nozzle installer who did pop test before install.
 
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BobnOH

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Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
Kind of sounds like a wore out pump. No codes for that.
Real common for a nice tune to exaggerate any existing issues.
I try to warn people, but some want to try a tune to clear up issues. There are only a certain few issues a tune can "fix", things like the defective fuel map on 99s & early PDs and the EGR and immobilizer.
 

UhOh

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Owain,are you saying that you didn't scan for codes or that you did and there were no codes found (and it ran so bad that you weren't going to do logging)?

OP, you didn't have issues prior to the nozzle/injector work (and tune)? Maybe a little background on this car would help: for all we know you could have just gotten it and it's had preexisting conditions. But, again, WHAT nozzles? And, WHO did the mounting and calibration? (someone who regularly does VW/TDI injector work?)
 

munly

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2002 Golf TDI, 5 Speed
ok...here's what happened as best i tell you. i'll be as impartial as possible. i didn't start this thread to slag Malone or the shop that installed my injectors. i started it to get some info on what could be going on with my car.

also, Owain has been very helpful and patient trying to find a solution. the shop that did the injectors tried to help as well after the nozzles and tune were installed.

the car before the nozzle/tune was running fine. smooth power (but stock power) no issues that i noticed while driving. it did have a check engine light for the egr delete. i'm not a mechanic, but as far as i could tell there was no issues with the car, except for poor milage (about 36mpg city driving). i do my own maintenance, filters, oil, intake cleaning, cts, thermostat, etc.

on thursday (nov 16) i drove from west vancouver to surrey (45 mins) to a shop near Malone's office. at that shop the nozzles were installed. i went to drive over to Malone after the install and the car was running rough (i.e. : missing/shutter). i made it to Malone's popped the hood, with the motor running and saw a compression leak in three for the four injectors. i saw this because there was anti seize on the injector body and it was bubbling for lack of a better word. so i drove back to the shop. they tried to seat the nozzles again by removing the retaining fork and placing a flat head screw driver on the lip of the injector body and tapping it down. then i went for another test drive, still the injectors were not seated fully. i think it was just the number one injector that wasn't seated. again they tapped down the injector to try and seat it. went for another short drive...same issue. one more attempt at tapping the injector down and it seemed to seat. i did a quick drive and the car seemed find. not as much power as i expected but there was no shuttering. there was a loping for lack of a better word. as in if i held the rpms at 2000 in third gear the car was loping. i assumed it was over fuelling.

then i drove to Malone's office. there Owain installed the tune while we both chatted. it didn't take long. he cleared the egr code and he didn't mention any other issues that he saw while he was installing the tune. then we were going to log some data after the tune was installed. so we went for a drive. we didn't get very far because the car had a horrible shutter. and as Owain said the IQ was jumping around all over the place. the idle was inconsistent and when the motor was put under load it shuttered.

i drove back to the shop that installed my injectors. they tried to help me by adjusting the IQ via ross-tech. the shutter got a little better as they lowered the IQ. that made some attempts to tweak the IQ then a short drive, adjust, drive, adjust, drive and so on. i got to the point were it was about 4 pm and a had to drive back to west vancouver because i had to work a night shift. so i did.

on the freeway the car was ok at higher rpm (+2800). and it is manageable when the motor isn't under load, cruising in fifth gear at 110km/hr for example. driving around the city there car i horrible. everything from 0-2800 there is a bad shutter.

in conclusion. Owain has offered to remove the tune. i called the shop that did my injectors to see if they still had the originals. he said he wasn't sure and he'd call me back. he hasn't called back or returned my calls. i'll assume he doesn't want to deal with the car and thats fine. i'll also assume he doesn't have my original nozzles. at this point in time i have an un-drivable car and can't seem to find any direction in what i can do to remedy this problem. i've called a few vw shops nearer to my home and they don't have experience with modded vw's or have ross-tech to adjust the IQ. i'm completely slammed with work and don't have time to try and fix this myself. i will attempt to bring it to a shop early next week.

like i said earlier i'm not slagging anyone i'm just trying to get my car running sensibly so i can drive it to and from work.
 

Kevinski4

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I said it earlier in the thread but I'll say it again. I've seen this same thing with eBay nozzles before.
 

munly

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Joined
Mar 23, 2013
Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
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2002 Golf TDI, 5 Speed
also the injectors were purchased from concept 1 in calgary. they are the same injectors that CTS Turbo carriers here in Vancouver. they are no name nozzles but made in Italy. Owain and the shop that did my injectors said they were quality nozzles. the shop that did my nozzles said he had installed a dozen or more sets without issue...although most of these were 205's.
 

vanbcguy

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'93 Passat - AHU mTDI with GTB1756VK
Your best bet would probably be to find another set of injectors for testing purposes. You'll have down time no matter what, there's barely any shops out there with the equipment to properly service TDI injectors in the first place, let alone do them while you wait.

NW Fuel Injection in Langley can check your modified injectors out but you'll probably have to leave them with them for a few days at least - qualified shops are usually busy. They built mine for me about 4 years ago, I had to leave them with them for about a week.

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Rrusse11

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Location
PA Deutsch Country
TDI
2002 Golf, 5spd; 05 Jeep CRD
So let me get this clear, you bought nozzles, had them installed in a set of injectors. Went to the installer where your ORIGINAL injectors were removed and a seperate reworked set were installed, with seating problems.

Sounds like the real problem is the 2nd set of injectors. And BTW, seating with the "flat of a large screwdriver" on top is a recipe for uneven pressures. New or annealed washers? Read Franko6's recent excellent and detailed installation procedure here;

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=483686

Did you watch? I won't go to a shop anymore where they won't let me observe. "insurance liabilities" is the usual excuse for shooing you out of the shop while they work on YOUR car.

Never seize on the injector bodies? Why? Didn't clean the seats I'll bet. No expert here, but cleanliness is next to godliness when it comes to anything to do with the fuel delivery system.

Did they really clean the "new" set? Or did the underpaid kid who
started 2 months ago get given the job to scrub them with a wire brush in the dirty parts cleaner sink. Balanced the springs? Sounds like you've got crap in them to me.

BTW, I'm cleaning up a set as we speak, including some pretty carboned up injectors. By the time I've got them apart, and carefully cleaned, I'll have a couple hours in them. And then I'll take 'em to the Jeff who will almost certainly clean the nozzles again, and inspect the bodies carefully.

And where did your old injectors go?

My $.02
 

munly

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Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
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2002 Golf TDI, 5 Speed
Sorry...the nozzles were purchased from concept 1. Not injectors. The new nozzles were mounted to the stock/original injectors.
 

Rrusse11

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Location
PA Deutsch Country
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2002 Golf, 5spd; 05 Jeep CRD
Sorry...the nozzles were purchased from concept 1. Not injectors. The new nozzles were mounted to the stock/original injectors.
Ahhh, ok. I'll still stand by my distant diagnosis that you've got some crap somewhere in the system. IQ jumping a point or 2 sounds like a blockage to me.

I suspect I have the same nozzles, bought off Ebay for little money, seller swore they were from Italy. I rolled the dice and they've been fine for the last 15k. I did take the precaution of buying another set of injectors, used, so I had very little down time. Had them cleaned and set up by a local diesel shop, and installed them myself. I did buy the metalnerd slide hammer tool. That makes seating a snap.
The dedicated amateur can do as good a job as the pro, just usually a lot slower, unfettered by fiscal/time constraints.

Good luck!
 

U4ick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Location
texas
TDI
2003 jetta tdi
If I was in your situation and had to depend on others to fix my car I think I would start backtracking by going back to Owain and politely asking him to temporarily remove the tune (even though it is not your problem) until you get the nozzles and fueling issues sorted out.

My next move would be to show up at the mechanic that did your nozzles and have a " come to Jesus " talk, he won't be able to blame it on the tune. If you get no satisfaction there at least you can take it somewhere else without the tune being an issue as to why they don't want to work on it.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
ok...here's what happened as best i tell you. i'll be as impartial as possible. i didn't start this thread to slag Malone or the shop that installed my injectors. i started it to get some info on what could be going on with my car.

also, Owain has been very helpful and patient trying to find a solution. the shop that did the injectors tried to help as well after the nozzles and tune were installed.

the car before the nozzle/tune was running fine. smooth power (but stock power) no issues that i noticed while driving. it did have a check engine light for the egr delete. i'm not a mechanic, but as far as i could tell there was no issues with the car, except for poor milage (about 36mpg city driving). i do my own maintenance, filters, oil, intake cleaning, cts, thermostat, etc.

on thursday (nov 16) i drove from west vancouver to surrey (45 mins) to a shop near Malone's office. at that shop the nozzles were installed. i went to drive over to Malone after the install and the car was running rough (i.e. : missing/shutter). i made it to Malone's popped the hood, with the motor running and saw a compression leak in three for the four injectors. i saw this because there was anti seize on the injector body and it was bubbling for lack of a better word. so i drove back to the shop. they tried to seat the nozzles again by removing the retaining fork and placing a flat head screw driver on the lip of the injector body and tapping it down. then i went for another test drive, still the injectors were not seated fully. i think it was just the number one injector that wasn't seated. again they tapped down the injector to try and seat it. went for another short drive...same issue. one more attempt at tapping the injector down and it seemed to seat. i did a quick drive and the car seemed find. not as much power as i expected but there was no shuttering. there was a loping for lack of a better word. as in if i held the rpms at 2000 in third gear the car was loping. i assumed it was over fuelling.

then i drove to Malone's office. there Owain installed the tune while we both chatted. it didn't take long. he cleared the egr code and he didn't mention any other issues that he saw while he was installing the tune. then we were going to log some data after the tune was installed. so we went for a drive. we didn't get very far because the car had a horrible shutter. and as Owain said the IQ was jumping around all over the place. the idle was inconsistent and when the motor was put under load it shuttered.

i drove back to the shop that installed my injectors. they tried to help me by adjusting the IQ via ross-tech. the shutter got a little better as they lowered the IQ. that made some attempts to tweak the IQ then a short drive, adjust, drive, adjust, drive and so on. i got to the point were it was about 4 pm and a had to drive back to west vancouver because i had to work a night shift. so i did.

on the freeway the car was ok at higher rpm (+2800). and it is manageable when the motor isn't under load, cruising in fifth gear at 110km/hr for example. driving around the city there car i horrible. everything from 0-2800 there is a bad shutter.

in conclusion. Owain has offered to remove the tune. i called the shop that did my injectors to see if they still had the originals. he said he wasn't sure and he'd call me back. he hasn't called back or returned my calls. i'll assume he doesn't want to deal with the car and thats fine. i'll also assume he doesn't have my original nozzles. at this point in time i have an un-drivable car and can't seem to find any direction in what i can do to remedy this problem. i've called a few vw shops nearer to my home and they don't have experience with modded vw's or have ross-tech to adjust the IQ. i'm completely slammed with work and don't have time to try and fix this myself. i will attempt to bring it to a shop early next week.

like i said earlier i'm not slagging anyone i'm just trying to get my car running sensibly so i can drive it to and from work.
THANK YOU for taking the time to lay it all out. It's never a personal thing, it's about trying to resolve an issue- OK?

As has been noted, anti-seize on the injectors is a questionable process. That the injectors weren't sealing correctly also brings up the question as to whether they even used new sealing washers (do shops even bother to anneal them?). I wouldn't be comfortable with any of the work that was done here if they had this kind of batting average with just getting the injectors to seal/seat. Also, were the fuel return lines replaced?

When you say the shop doesn't have your "original nozzles" does that mean just the nozzles or the injectors+nozzles? Kind of matters because it's unsure whether different injector bodies have been introduced into this equation. NOTE: you should always get your original bits back, bits such as nozzles (though not sure what one is going to do with stock ones- I've got several clinking around), injector bodies are a different story (consider them core parts- worth a good $200 or so).

Not sure who you are dealing with vis a vis the injectors. If you PM me I can direct you to a couple competent places up there.

If there are no codes for IP or the #3 injector then there could be, as noted, some blockage happening. Pretty sure that this kind of stuff would show up in VCDS (or comparable diag equipment) under injector deviation data.

So, just to make sure what things are like at this point, are you running with the (new) tune? I got spun all over the place on this, confused as to whether Owain left the tune in or not. At any rate, it WILL NOT be the tune that's responsible with problems here: usually if there's any issue it won't be problematic like this- it'll be more on the higher boost-side of things- hopefully Owain can correct me if I'm talking out my $##).
 

munly

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2013
Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
TDI
2002 Golf TDI, 5 Speed
Uhoh...to answer your questions. The shop did use new sealing washers. And new fuel return lines were placed (those a the soft black lines running from injector to injector?)

As far as I know the shop doesn't have the original nozzles. The injector bodies are the ones that were already on the car. THE NEW NOZZLES WERE MOUNTED TO MY OLD INJECTOR BODIES.

There are no codes right now. When I went back to the shop after the tune there was a code for "misfire" that developed when they were playing with the IQ (thats all i was told). They cleared the code it hasn't returned.

I am running a stage 3 tune. Owain left it on there because I was going back to the shop to get them to fix the nozzle issues. Like I said in an earlier post, I didn't have time to stay there any longer because I had a night shift at work.

If the injectors were removed and replaced could this solve my problem?
 

UhOh

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PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
munly, just looking to verify the facts/events. At this point nothing should be changed until further data is collected.

That you have the same injector bodies is good because we know that they didn't exhibit issues before. That only leaves the change as being the nozzles (and, as noted, return lines).

Seeing as there's no codes (regular occurrence) I'd suspect that it's the injectors and not the IP: this is good. I'd advocate that one needs to take a look at see what the injector balance/deviation looks like. I suspect that's going to show your smoking gun.

Question: are you smelling any raw fuel? (make sure we don't have leaking return lines- I had one case where I had a loose injector and the car still ran fine (noisy, something that I was thinking was a worsening of a known exhaust leak).

If Owain is still around perhaps he can comment on this.
 

munly

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Joined
Mar 23, 2013
Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
TDI
2002 Golf TDI, 5 Speed
just a quick question. if some debris was to fall into the hole for the injectors during a nozzle swap is it the end of the world for my car. i'm hoping my issue is a blockage of some sort or the injectors are not seating completely. i'm going to remove and replace the injectors and hope for the best. if anyone has any tips it would be greatly appreciated. thanks.
 

vanbcguy

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Feb 22, 2013
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TDI
'93 Passat - AHU mTDI with GTB1756VK
Depends what the debris is and where it ends up. Something abrasive getting jammed in a ring will do damage, anything that burns will probably cease to be...

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Nevada_TDI

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Reno, sort of...
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2001 Jetta TDI
It could be the quantity adjuster in your pump or it could be the #3 injector acting up. By changing the nozzle size your IQ will drastically drop on it's own, and occasionally the QA will sometimes get stuck in a limited range of movement over time causing the IQ to jump around at idle when the nozzles are changed. I have recently gone through the IQ jumping around myself, but my problem did not end until I replaced my IP. It was up for discussion as to whether or not I had water in my fuel that caused the problem; when was the last time you drained your fuel filter and checked for water?
 

UhOh

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PNW
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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
just a quick question. if some debris was to fall into the hole for the injectors during a nozzle swap is it the end of the world for my car. i'm hoping my issue is a blockage of some sort or the injectors are not seating completely. i'm going to remove and replace the injectors and hope for the best. if anyone has any tips it would be greatly appreciated. thanks.
Stuff getting into the injector holes won't affect the injectors. I don't know why you're asking about this possibility, but, generally, usually the worst that can happen is that some carbon is knocked off and into the cylinder; usually not any significant amount of carbon "chunk" here. Advised practice is to clean out from around the injectors before pulling; then after pulled to clean the injector bores.

"Leaking" that you'd be able to check for would be, effectively, compression leaks. Spray some soapy water around the base of the injectors and if any of them are blowing bubbles then you've got an injector that isn't seating well. I cannot, however, see a leaking injector being responsible for the IP's IQ jumping around as much as has been reported. Leaky injector -seal- in my car was significant, LOTS of black soot plastered everywhere, yet, the car ran well (no detection of decreased performance at all), well enough to log 50+mpg.

If you're thinking leaking injector bodies/nozzles, then that's another story, one that only a professional can really check. HOWEVER, it's possible given a bad enough injector that one could see tell-tale wetness/blackness on an injector nozzle: I have little experience in a situation like this, but I'm sure others have.

If it is suspected that ONE injector is wonky then loosening up the fuel line to the injector (one can do this one at a time if unsure which one) to see how much difference that makes. With an already rough cylinder it'll make less difference. One needs to place a rag around the area to keep from getting fuel all over.

Lastly, I'm still not familiar with those nozzles. But, 0.216 seems like a pretty big jump; without any hardware upgrades (turbo) you'd need to crank back on the IQ quite a bit: IQ numbers are kind of backwards, so in absolute numerical terms one actually increases the number to reduce fueling. It's kind of silly to be going bigger only to then restrict.

No real chance of resolving this without some data. Either shotgun parts or shell out for someone to deal with it: if you're not happy with the folks you're dealing with then go elsewhere; BUT, keep in mind the possibility that you may end up hearing what you've already heard- without data, which will take someone's time to gather, you're kind of stuck trying to get out of this cheaply.
 

munly

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Joined
Mar 23, 2013
Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
TDI
2002 Golf TDI, 5 Speed
another question...since having this work done my motor has developed a noticeable "tink, tink, tink, tink..." sound. it sounds like its coming from under the valve cover. any ideas. thanks.
 
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