Need advice: Replace or rebuild injection pump?

Flimzy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Location
Wichita, Kansas
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI, 1986 TurboDiesel Jetta GL, 1997 Dodge RAM 3500 Cummins
The IP in my 2003 TDI just went out. I'm in Guadalajara, Mexico.

A local diesel shop says they can replace it with a new one, parts + labor for $1298 ($17,500 MXN).

Alternately, I could ship the dead one to DFIS for rebuilding, for an estimated $900-$1300 (including international shipping both ways), plus labor.

Clearly, I stand to save a little money with the rebuilt IP, or I might lose some... And the extra hassle of international shipping makes me more interested in the local repair option. But I've heard rumors that well re-built IPs can be better than a new one.

So my real question isn't about the cost of the repair, but more about the reliability of the repair. Is there any reason to prefer a rebuilt IP or a new one?

And to make matters worse, the mechanic who's looking at my IP insisted that my car "has a mechanical IP, therefore it has no ECU." Which doesn't instill a lot of confidence. :/

Should I have my car taken to a local VW dealership instead?
 
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jcrews

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Round Rock, TX - VCDS
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All gone
I would expect a DFIS rebuild job to be a little cheaper. A new 10mm pump is $900 (worldimpex). You should call them first, unless you already have.

Rebuilds get the usual 1 year/12000 miles warranty.

What went wrong with yours (what is the core condition)?

You might also consider getting a new timing belt. The only additional labor is loosening the motor mount and changing a few small parts. Make sure the shop uses the specified timing locks.
 

Flimzy

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Feb 27, 2006
Location
Wichita, Kansas
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI, 1986 TurboDiesel Jetta GL, 1997 Dodge RAM 3500 Cummins
The symptom is that there was air in the fuel line... and my regular mechanic discovered a leaky seal on the IP. That's when he took it to the diesel shop where it is now. Beyond that, I don't know the core condition. I don't speak fluent enough Spanish--especially when it comes to automotive terms--to really ask intelligible questions right now. Although I can probe further if necessary.

The repair from DFIS is quoted at $650-$1000. The additional cost is international shipping and import duties.

The diesel shop is offering me a 3-month warranty. The timing belt was replaced 10k miles ago with a 100k belt kit. I'm not opposed to replacing it again, but this one should be in pretty good shape.

I'm actually a bit nervous about letting this shop set the timing, since they don't think the car even has an ECU... Makes me think they've probably never seen this model of car before... *sigh*
 

Flimzy

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Joined
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Wichita, Kansas
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI, 1986 TurboDiesel Jetta GL, 1997 Dodge RAM 3500 Cummins
gguenstedt: Yes, it is leaking. (Unless these mechanics have damaged it further)
 

josh8loop

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Vero Beach, Fl.
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2002 VW Jetta TDI Manual(performed 01M to 5-speed swap) - 183,000 miles and climbing!
gguenstedt: Yes, it is leaking. (Unless these mechanics have damaged it further)


Buy a rebuild kit and Viton head seal from Dieselgeek, and the security bit and do the rebuild yourself while it's in the car. Worse case, if it's one of the seals that aren't accessible with it in the car, remove the IP and replace all the seals. I would think the cost of shipping for the rebuild parts for the IP shoudn't be more than 70 USD or so. You wouldn't need to reset the timing if you don't remove the IP, but will most likely need VagCom to reset the IQ.



Edit-

You may want to replace your fuel filter & thermostatic T "O" rings to help with the air intrusion issue if they haven't been done recently.

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jcrews

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Round Rock, TX - VCDS
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All gone
Unless the unit is leaking from the main shaft seal, you can repair it yourself.

You can get the seals at dieselgeek.com. The ones to be concerned about are the top cover seal, QA to body seal, and the delivery valve head to body seal. As long as you work with obsessive cleanliness and attention to detail (and instructions), you can repair the most common leaks in your own garage, saving you the cost of a rebuild, as long as the pump otherwise works well.

A few of the less common seals require removing and reinstalling the pump, which require the lock tools.
 

jcrews

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Location
Round Rock, TX - VCDS
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All gone
Another note - most of the IP is under high positive pressure, and will not draw air in unless left overnight (hard starting only).

Constant air ingestion is most frequently caused by a bad seal in the fuel filter - either the drain valve, the thermostatic 'T' valve, or the o-rings for that valve. Less often, the pickup will develop hairline cracks and will draw in air when the fuel level drops below the top of the pickup unit.
 

Flimzy

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Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Location
Wichita, Kansas
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI, 1986 TurboDiesel Jetta GL, 1997 Dodge RAM 3500 Cummins
I just called my mechanic (who more or less speaks English), and he tells me that the diesel shop found that some part (he didn't know which) had "worn down" in the IP, so the problem is apparently worse than just a leak... ? Does this make sense to anyone? ha

I'm guessing this means that the seal kit won't solve my problem. (Darn, I was excited there for a moment)
 

jcrews

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Round Rock, TX - VCDS
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I would rather see a performance log from VCDS. Unless said shop tore down the entire pump already, such a claim is total crap in my opinion. I.e., demand the evidence to support that claim.

Can you explain what exactly your complaint is? Hard starting, low power, etc?
 

Flimzy

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Location
Wichita, Kansas
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI, 1986 TurboDiesel Jetta GL, 1997 Dodge RAM 3500 Cummins
jcrews: I noticed the air in the fuel line in the morning, after the car had been sitting overnight. It had worked fine, best I could tell, the day before. The first thing my mechanic did to test was run the fuel intake into a can of diesel instead of the fuel tank, and it first started okay, but the second time it failed, and that's when he discovered the leaky seal on the IP.

The pump is already torn apart. And as I alluded to in the paragraph above, the original complaint was that the car would not start after sitting in the drive way over night. When I popped the hood, I saw that the clear fuel line that leads from the fuel filter to the IP was full of air.
 
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josh8loop

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Location
Vero Beach, Fl.
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2002 VW Jetta TDI Manual(performed 01M to 5-speed swap) - 183,000 miles and climbing!
I just called my mechanic (who more or less speaks English), and he tells me that the diesel shop found that some part (he didn't know which) had "worn down" in the IP, so the problem is apparently worse than just a leak... ? Does this make sense to anyone? ha

I'm guessing this means that the seal kit won't solve my problem. (Darn, I was excited there for a moment)

They are probably talking about the internal IP cam. Sometimes the metal wears down and will shed metal particles which will end up in the quantity adjuster area. If it were me, I would want to inspect the quantity adjuster area for metal debris. If there is no debris, then do a simple reseal, change the fuel filter & thermostatic T "O" rings and be done with it. Don't take their word for it, make them prove to you that there is metal on the quantity adjuster.

By the way, heres a great video of a IP reseal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR44StvcXms

..
 

Flimzy

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Wichita, Kansas
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI, 1986 TurboDiesel Jetta GL, 1997 Dodge RAM 3500 Cummins
josh8loop: thanks... I'll try to go look at the car/IP tomorrow.
 

josh8loop

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Vero Beach, Fl.
TDI
2002 VW Jetta TDI Manual(performed 01M to 5-speed swap) - 183,000 miles and climbing!
Come to think of it, quite a few people have worn down cams in the IP and associated metal debris on the quantity adjuster mechanism and never notice any performance issues from it. FWIW


..
 

Flimzy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Location
Wichita, Kansas
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI, 1986 TurboDiesel Jetta GL, 1997 Dodge RAM 3500 Cummins
josh8loop: So I should probably just try the seal kit first, and if that doesn't fix the problem, then consider something more expensive?
 

Herm TDI

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Nov 21, 2001
Location
Richmond, Maine...The far side of Witsend
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2002 Golf GLS Malone Stage 3, P+520 nozzles, 11MM Inj pump, Sachs VR6 clutch, Stelth Race Pipe, Immo Deleat, EGR Deleat
I just when through a tuff "hill of Beans" with DFIS. About 14 months ago they rebuilt a 10 MM injection pump for a customer of mine. Then two months out of warranty (pump failure) they (DFIS) says "too bad / sorry" ****te happens.

They wanted another $650.00 (+ shipping both-ways) to rebuild it again. This is not a bargin on a pump that has less than (since re-build) 11,000 miles use.

The owner "passed" on this offer and bought a new (not re-built) 10 MM injection pump from IMPEX
http://www.worldimpex.com/parts/oem-tdi-injection-pump-manual-trans-new_242054.html
 
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Flimzy

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Wichita, Kansas
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI, 1986 TurboDiesel Jetta GL, 1997 Dodge RAM 3500 Cummins
HermTDI: Any idea why the rebuilt pump from IMPEX costs more than the new one?
 
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chromeBuddha

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Jun 30, 2006
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Arlington, TX - DFW metroplex
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2002 Golf TDI manual
It sound like it may be too late to do the seal kit. If they have pulled the head and dropped the shim into the pump body...it is toast.

Wish you had checked in here first, those original symptoms are classic head seal...

runonbeer has some nice (7 part) videos that go through it step by step.
 

Flimzy

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Location
Wichita, Kansas
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI, 1986 TurboDiesel Jetta GL, 1997 Dodge RAM 3500 Cummins
Wonderful... I think maybe I'll have the car towed to a local VW dealership... I think I can trust them to say "We don't know anything about this car" more than I trust these clowns.

I wish my mechanic hadn't torn apart my IP before asking me... I asked him to investigate air in the fuel line, thinking it was something simple like a leaky fuel line or broken T joint as someone else mentioned earlier...

By the time he told me what he had discovered, the IP was already torn apart.
 
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josh8loop

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2002 VW Jetta TDI Manual(performed 01M to 5-speed swap) - 183,000 miles and climbing!
josh8loop: So I should probably just try the seal kit first, and if that doesn't fix the problem, then consider something more expensive?


The original problem was air in the fuel line, and most likely hard to start as a result. The fix for that situation was replacement of fuel filter, and new thermo T "O"rings so that air no longer got sucked into the fuel lines overnight. Now that a non TDI mechanics hands have gotten into the mix.......

If they haven't removed the high pressure head(the part that has the 4 high pressure injector lines coming out of it)and dropped the round metal shim down in the pump, I would say do a pump reseal, fuel filter, and thermostatic T "O" rings and that should do it. Also when you do the reseal, look down into the IP while loosening the high pressure head and visually ensure that the round shim stays in place. Worst case scenario is that it drops down. That's not a big deal if you are aware of it since you can get creative and get it back in position. The problem happens when you don't know about it, and it falls and then you try to start it!



..
 
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Herm TDI

Vendor
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Nov 21, 2001
Location
Richmond, Maine...The far side of Witsend
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2002 Golf GLS Malone Stage 3, P+520 nozzles, 11MM Inj pump, Sachs VR6 clutch, Stelth Race Pipe, Immo Deleat, EGR Deleat
Wonderful... I think maybe I'll have the car towed to a local VW dealership... I think I can trust them to say "We don't know anything about this car" more than I trust these clowns.

I wish my mechanic hadn't torn apart my IP before asking me... I asked him to investigate air in the fuel line, thinking it was something simple like a leaky fuel line or broken T joint as someone else mentioned earlier...

By the time he told me what he had discovered, the IP was already torn apart.
With a few special tools ( that you can rent) and VCDS, along with time and reading(do not underestimate reading) you may be able to install an injection pump yourself.

As far as "air in the fuel line" is consered a simple defective "o-ring seal" at the fuel filter may have been the problem but that is long past history at this point.
 
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Flimzy

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Feb 27, 2006
Location
Wichita, Kansas
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI, 1986 TurboDiesel Jetta GL, 1997 Dodge RAM 3500 Cummins
Thanks everyone for the help... I'll try to go look at the car tomorrow, and have it towed back to my house, or to a VW dealership (if they convince me they can work on it). I may post follow-up questions....
 

halocline

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Aug 13, 2009
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San Antonio
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04 Jetta Wagon
Too bad you can't take a short 16 hr trio up the autopista to Austin and have runonbeer fix you up. He's an expert with injection pumps. Who knows, maybe he'd be interested in a little trip south of the border. If you were in, say, oaxaca or zihuatanejo, it would be tempting.

At the very least maybe he'll chime in on this thread to offer some advice.

When my gasser 88 jetta suffered clutch failure in the steep hills of Taxco, I asked several taxi drivers who the best VW mechanic in town was. One name kept popping up so I brought me car to him and had a new clutch and rear brakes for a very reasonable price. If there are lots of TDIs in Mexico, there has got to be at least one competent mechanic in a city as large as guadalajara.
 

Flimzy

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Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Location
Wichita, Kansas
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI, 1986 TurboDiesel Jetta GL, 1997 Dodge RAM 3500 Cummins
My understanding is that the TDIs weren't sold here until 2010... so the oldest TDIs will just now be coming off factory warranty, I suspect...so I doubt there's much demand for TDI mechanics.

I do know of a VW mechanic near here, though... maybe I'll talk to him and see if he knows anything about TDIs, or can recommend someone.
 

Flimzy

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Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Location
Wichita, Kansas
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI, 1986 TurboDiesel Jetta GL, 1997 Dodge RAM 3500 Cummins
halocline: Actually, I'm only about 10 hours from Austin... but I'd need some way to tow my car there... although that's not actually entirely out of the question. I'll see what options I have locally first, though.
 

runonbeer

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Wow, how did I miss this one. I can usually smell a leaky pump seal thread 20ft. from my laptop.

Bummer that they already took it apart. Bigger bummer that they already took it off. They probably have no earthly idea how to put it back on right even if they do manage to successfully seal it up.
 

Keith_J

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Apr 12, 2007
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West
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2000 Jetta MT
Not the first time a mechanic attempted to work on a TDI without proper info.
 
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