Fuel additives

twincam2000

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2010 Jetta TDI
Is it OK to use a fuel additive like Power service or Sea Foam occasionally in my 2010 Jetta TDI ? I use about half a quart in my Cummins 5.9 about every 3rd tank. I haven't seen any talk about this on this forum and was just wondering if it would be alright to use it.
 

TDI Believer

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I would definitely use an additive on a 2010. Stanadyne Lubricity Formula would be my first choice. Not sure how well the Power Service is with lubricity. I don't know what's in Sea Foam, so I personally wouldn't use it with the expensive exhaust aftertreatment on the CR engines.
 

Joe_Meehan

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twincam2000 said:
Is it OK to use a fuel additive like Power service or Sea Foam occasionally in my 2010 Jetta TDI ? ..
Do you have a problem that you believe an additive would help solve? I would have to guess that most additives sold are not needed for the car, but makes the owner happy and the manufacturer wealthy.
 

TDI Believer

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Joe_Meehan said:
Do you have a problem that you believe an additive would help solve? I would have to guess that most additives sold are not needed for the car, but makes the owner happy and the manufacturer wealthy.
You might want to read up on the problems with ULSD in the U.S...
 

Joe_Meehan

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TDI Believer said:
You might want to read up on the problems with ULSD in the U.S...
I have and I don't see good evidence that there is a problem. I have seen a lot of theories, but no real data. Do you have a source you could point me to with real statical data showing real issues.
 

TDI Believer

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Joe_Meehan said:
I have and I don't see good evidence that there is a problem. I have seen a lot of theories, but no real data. Do you have a source you could point me to with real statical data showing real issues.
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA503602&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

http://www.clean-diesel.org/vehicle_performance.html
"Like Low Sulfur Diesel fuel, ULSD fuel requires good lubricity and corrosion inhibitors to prevent unacceptable engine wear. As necessary, additives to increase lubricity and to inhibit corrosion are added to ULSD fuel prior to its retail sale. With these additives, ULSD fuel performs as well as Low Sulfur Diesel fuel."

Just Google "ULSD" and "Corrosion" and you will find a wealth of into.

In my personal experience, I lost a full set of injectors on a relatively new Dodge RAM Cummins CR due to lack of lubricity in the fuel. The replacement set of injectors was starting to go when I caught on and started using a lubricity additive. No more problems after that.

Believe what you wish.
 

RalphVa

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I'm not using an additive in my 2010 TDI until VW tells me which one. I frankly don't believe the lubricity issue. Mercedes was using direct fuel injection in gasoline engines since the 1950s. Gasoline has nil lubricity.

I do believe that there is a problem with wax drop out with ULSD because I experienced this in my 2004 diesel tractor. The engine on it was cutting out after 30 minutes to an hour's use. I emptied the tank and found a couple globs of whitish/yellowish wax near the outlet line from the tank. So, I use an additive in its fuel to protect against this. It seems that the old additive called kerosene is less effective in preventing wax formation in ULSD than it did in the preULSD diesel.

This wax formation is only a problem below about 10 F. My TDI is parked in the garage where it seldom goes below about 40 F. So, I don't need an additive in its tank for wax protection.

I use Seafoam in my carbureted engines. It's great for those. I've heard that it isn't so good in injected engines. Really don't know. It definitely cleans up and keeps carburetors clean on both 4 cycle and 2 cycle gasoline engines.
 

Cool Breeze

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twincam2000 said:
Is it OK to use a fuel additive like Power service or Sea Foam occasionally in my 2010 Jetta TDI ? I use about half a quart in my Cummins 5.9 about every 3rd tank. I haven't seen any talk about this on this forum and was just wondering if it would be alright to use it.
My $.02.

-In order to sell a car in the US it must be able to run for 10 yrs/120k miles. This is why you hear about "lifetime" fluids and components. Many TDIer's intend to keep their cars for 2 to 3 times longer. Keep this in mind.

-The companies who build the fuel injection systems (ex Bosch) have stated that the the lubricity present in Euro quality fuel is the minimium which will not shorten the life span of their components. US spec USLD does not meet Euro for lubricity. IIRC their statement never quanitified what "shorten" is.

-Auto companies are not in the additive business, and do not offer certification of additives unlike what they do for engine oil. So you will never have an auto company say any additive is ok and most state no additives required. There's an obvious liablity component which can not be ignored. Now for example it's true that VW sold/used Stanadyne years ago, but that appears to be no longer the case, and I know of another german car company which states no additives yet their dealerships sell a gasoline fuel injector cleaner branded in their name.

-You're seeing more and more "premium" diesel which meets Euro spec for lubricity and cetane. Oil companies are not dumb. They've managed to get a min specification below that of Euro quality only to sell Euro quality at a premium. Consequently there's a greater chance that if you buy diesel from a pump which alludes to being premium or above their normal grade you're getting Euro quality diesel.

-I have yet to read any report/instance where a well known readily available diesel fuel additive caused any negative affects or damage to the exhaust treatment systems or injection systems of a diesel powered vehicle. A car company can just as easily deny a warranty claim citing bad fuel as they would for an additive so from a warranty perspective there really is nothing gained when choosing not to use an additive.

-Biodiesel (B2,B5) seems to be the best/cheapest option to insure adequate lubricity for our injection systems and VW allows it. If it's available, it's worth using in my opinion.
 
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GTIDan

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TDI Believer said:
Well said!
From everything I've been able to dig up California diesel pretty much fits the definition of premium. I've contacted Conoco/Phillips, Chevron and ARCO and all of them claim their lubricity is at/below or close to the European standard.

For me. VW Say's 'don't use um' and I don't but I do purchase my fuel from any of the above companies.

I live and work in Southern California so my driving is a combination of freeway and city streets with lots of 'rush hour' type driving thrown in. I have just under 6,000 miles on the clock. My last tank of fuel took me 513 miles and required 12.475 gallons. You do the math. (hint, over 40 mpg).

As you can see from my 'fuelly site' I'm inching up the chart and I expect to break into the 37 mpg ladder after my next fuel up.
 

Joe_Meehan

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So far I am still seeing much the same thing as I have seen before, like

"The lack of real information or hard facts has led some to believe that this "new" ULSD fuel will be a panacea, a wonderful cure-all for all the fuel related problems of the past, present, and future.

While this not a "the sky is falling" moment, we believe it is prudent to investigate the changes in fuels and engines and act to protect the very large investment that is made in today's equipment.

In virtually every case where new rules and regulations have forced dramatic changes to existing technology, there has been a period where failures and unintended consequences have caused significant problems, expenses, and disruptions until the technology "works out the bugs".


While I believe there is some good reasons to be skeptical or the current fuels. I would guess there is equally good reasons to be skeptical of the products marketed to "correct" the possible problems.

I am looking for some solid statical and real world studies that show real world issues.

Once again, I am not trying to say there is evidence that there is no problem, but I am not seeing the evidence that there is a problem.

I would like to thank all those who have taken their time to respond.
 
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securityguy

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Joe, at this point in thime...you will find neither either way. You have to decide what you personally want to do. For many of us, there is enough "evidence" to warrant a well known brand of additive to help supplement the lubricity additives or lack there of in the fuel we purchase. As was stated above, there has been ZERO evidence that any additive has caused any issues reaking havoc with a VW fuel system. On the other hand, there is "evidence" that HPFP have failed for this very reason.

We will continue to go back and forth like DEMS and REPUBLICANS and we will never agree...all the more reason to drive more and worry less and do what you feel is best for your car:)
 

TornadoRed

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twincam2000 said:
Is it OK to use a fuel additive like Power service or Sea Foam occasionally in my 2010 Jetta TDI ? I use about half a quart in my Cummins 5.9 about every 3rd tank. I haven't seen any talk about this on this forum and was just wondering if it would be alright to use it.
PowerService? Maybe.

Sea Foam? Maybe in a gasoline engine.
 

DoctorDawg

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twincam2000 said:
Is it OK to use a fuel additive like Power service or Sea Foam occasionally in my 2010 Jetta TDI ? I use about half a quart in my Cummins 5.9 about every 3rd tank.
The only thing I wish to add to this long-standing issue is that using a fuel additive "occasionally" or "every 3rd tank" or such-like makes little sense (to me, at least). It gives you the worst of both worlds: no continuous protection, but you're spending extra money. In my book, you either use it all the time or you don't use it. A simile occurs to me which is not appropriate for a family-friendly web site.
 
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Bob_Fout

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DoctorDawg said:
The only thing I wish to add to this long-standing issue is that using a fuel additive "occasionally" or "every 3rd tank" or such-like makes little sense (to me, at least). It gives you the worst of both worlds: no continuous protection, but you're spending extra money. In my book, you either use it all the time or you don't use it. A simile occurs to me which is not appropriate for a family-friendly web site.
I was thinking the same when I started reading your post about things you might not use all the time but probably should. :p
 

MotoWPK

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I have to chime in in support of Joe Meehan's question. Where is the evidence of HPFP or other 2009/2010 fuel system component failures due to lubricity?

I have followed these threads, researched a variety of sources and even talked to Conoco Phillips and their additive supplier. While it is undeniable that insufficient lubricity will be a problem, additives that address lubricity, corrosion and gelling are part of the normal ULSD manufacturing process and, at least the one supplier I've talked with (CP) has stated that they produce their ULSD to the 460 micron lubricity standard vs the 520 ASTM standard.

It's been said there are no known emissions control system issues resulting from using additives. But, as Joe has questioned, where are the known problems due to inadequate lubricity of ULSD? I have yet to read of any actual fuel system failure in an '09/'10 TDI on this forum or elsewhere caused by insufficient lubricity of commercially available ULSD.
 

Cool Breeze

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MotoWPK said:
I have to chime in in support of Joe Meehan's question. Where is the evidence of HPFP or other 2009/2010 fuel system component failures due to lubricity?

I have followed these threads, researched a variety of sources and even talked to Conoco Phillips and their additive supplier. While it is undeniable that insufficient lubricity will be a problem, additives that address lubricity, corrosion and gelling are part of the normal ULSD manufacturing process and, at least the one supplier I've talked with (CP) has stated that they produce their ULSD to the 460 micron lubricity standard vs the 520 ASTM standard.

It's been said there are no known emissions control system issues resulting from using additives. But, as Joe has questioned, where are the known problems due to inadequate lubricity of ULSD? I have yet to read of any actual fuel system failure in an '09/'10 TDI on this forum or elsewhere caused by insufficient lubricity of commercially available ULSD.
Think of using an additive as preventative maintenance. You will not realize a benefit until well into the lifespan of the vehicle. Early catastrophic failure of HPFP (which isn't happening btw) would most likely be the result of a manufacturing defect not lack of lubricity. I've said many times, if you intend to dump the car prior to 100k miles then don't waste your money on an additive because you probably won't realize a benefit. Or you could just use any diesel marketed as "premium" and never use an additive.

It's akin to "lifetime" transmission fluid. Porsche/BMW say ~100k miles (Imagine that). If VW said your ATF was lifetime would you change it? Again, it entirely depends on how long you intend to keep the car. The members of this forum would probably be classified as enthusiasts(sp?) and I suspect they intend to keep their vehicles over 100k miles.
 
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TornadoRed

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MotoWPK said:
I have to chime in in support of Joe Meehan's question. Where is the evidence of HPFP or other 2009/2010 fuel system component failures due to lubricity?... as Joe has questioned, where are the known problems due to inadequate lubricity of ULSD? I have yet to read of any actual fuel system failure in an '09/'10 TDI on this forum or elsewhere caused by insufficient lubricity of commercially available ULSD.
Cool Breeze is right, it can take tens or hundreds of thousands of miles for problems with fuel cleanliness or lubricity to show up.

With over 307k miles on my original injection pump, and knowing that many other TDI owners have replaced their IP once or sometimes twice in that interval, I have to think that using a lubricity-improving additive since the 15k-mile point on the odometer has likely contributed to the IP's longevity. (Or maybe it's the CAT 2-micron fuel filters I've used since 50k miles.)

It is too soon to see any fuel injection system problems caused by inadequate lubricity in the 2009-2010 TDIs. But it is not too soon to start protecting them, to prevent expensive repairs 3-to-5 years from now.
 

Tin Man

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TornadoRed said:
Cool Breeze is right, it can take tens or hundreds of thousands of miles for problems with fuel cleanliness or lubricity to show up.

With over 307k miles on my original injection pump, and knowing that many other TDI owners have replaced their IP once or sometimes twice in that interval, I have to think that using a lubricity-improving additive since the 15k-mile point on the odometer has likely contributed to the IP's longevity. (Or maybe it's the CAT 2-micron fuel filters I've used since 50k miles.)

It is too soon to see any fuel injection system problems caused by inadequate lubricity in the 2009-2010 TDIs. But it is not too soon to start protecting them, to prevent expensive repairs 3-to-5 years from now.
Its altogether possible, but would you care to be specific about the TDI owners that have had to replace their fuel pumps and at what cost? What cost were the additives that you used over 307k miles?

Just interested. First I've heard of ANY fuel pump failures. Are you sure they weren't gassers? Don't know if it can be automatically assumed to be fuel related either.

Can we also assume that the fuel pump manufacturers can't make a fuel pump to US fuel specs? Like it was said, gasoline has no lubricity and fuel pumps seem to be doing fine. Diesel does.

TM;)
 

TornadoRed

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Tin Man said:
Its altogether possible, but would you care to be specific about the TDI owners that have had to replace their fuel pumps and at what cost? What cost were the additives that you used over 307k miles?
The cost was not that much, about 30 cents per tank of fuel or an extra 2 cents per gallon of fuel. (Primrose at about $10 per quart, enough to treat 750 gallons.)
 

Tin Man

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TornadoRed said:
The cost was not that much, about 30 cents per tank of fuel or an extra 2 cents per gallon of fuel. (Primrose at about $10 per quart, enough to treat 750 gallons.)
Lets see, at 40 mpg over 300,000 miles that's about $150? Seems a bit low for that many miles. I would wager it cost you more.

I would also wager that the fuel pumps were not as frequent or as bad from standard diesel fuel as your statement implied.

It would be clear that we should all use additive if the big rig fleet owners routinely used additive, which apparently they don't. The big rigs go for a couple of million miles I hear. Also, when ULSD came out, it was clearly stated that prior to that, quality of diesel fuel was not as high overall/average.

Sorry, I'm still on my first fuel pump at 173,000 miles for the CDI. My 2002 NB TDI was sold with its original fuel pump at 156,000 miles. Anecdotal yes. Strategy: use brand name fuel for better additives. Don't trust aftermarket additives for their ability to mix with different quality of fuel and different additives already in the fuel. Don't trust aftermarket additives that have no data nor offer any hint as to their ingredients, and their sales pitches are not precise enough to know if the benefits are infinitesimal.

Cheers.

TM
 
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CsTDI

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Tin Man said:
...Can we also assume that the fuel pump manufacturers can't make a fuel pump to US fuel specs? ...
TM;)
I think the answer to your question is that the manufactured fuel pump is not fully compatible with the fuel- at least according to the manufacturer of our fuel pumps. Bosch has already said that US ULSD fuel is a problem prior to being dispensed from the fuel pumps as well as well as post-fueling and reccomends additives.
 

TornadoRed

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Tin Man said:
Lets see, at 40 mpg over 300,000 miles that's about $150? Seems a bit low for that many miles. I would wager it cost you more.
It was more, I have records in my spreadsheet, showing when I made online purchases of Primrose. I have also made a few purchases of PS, and a one-time purchase of something else. So I know for a fact that I've spent over $200 and probably more than $225 -- still a tiny amount compared to what some spend on additives.
 

dieselfuel

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Can the 2010 TDI's use bio-diesel? 2% bio is all you need if a 2010 can use it.

I buy B100 and dump anywhere from 1 quart to 1 gln per fill-up (between 8-15 glns) depending on what % bio I want to run. 2% in winter, higher in warmer weather.

When I'm ready change my fuel filter, I'll run a tank of 60% or so to give the system a good cleaning.

Yep, imo, there's no better dieselfuel additive for lubricity and cleaning effect than commercial bio-diesel.
 

Tin Man

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CsTDI said:
I think the answer to your question is that the manufactured fuel pump is not fully compatible with the fuel- at least according to the manufacturer of our fuel pumps. Bosch has already said that US ULSD fuel is a problem prior to being dispensed from the fuel pumps as well as well as post-fueling and reccomends additives.
Not exactly. It depends on how you interpret what was said.

On scrutiny, the fuel pump manufacturers were more concerned about future fuel pump design given anticipated stricter pollution standards and harsher demands on engines.

See this thread.

TM
 

pleopard

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If you do choose to use an additive, make sure it at least claims to be ULSD compatible on the packaging. I recently picked up some Stanadyne PF from a dealer in PA and discovered it was old stock and not their reformulated stuff for 2007+ engines. If you get Stanadyne PF, make sure it is NOT Part # 29409 (at least this was the number in the 16oz bottle). I believe all new part numbers begin with a 3, but the safest bet is to look for the ULSD label. It's a good thing I discovered this before putting it in my tank. You'd think by now all the old stock would be depleted.
 
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