NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

sledstorm1

Veteran Member
Joined
May 16, 2009
Location
Austin MN
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2011 Golf Tdi 4dr 6mt
I have an 07 chevy duramax with a cp3 pump, in the last three years of ownership and read a couple of duramax forums I have never heard of anything like this happening on a durmax.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
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Location
Newark, OH
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None
The Mercedes diesels, BMW diesels, Cummins diesels, 6.4 PowerStrokes, and pre-2011 Duramaxes are irrelevant.

They all use the CP3, an older pump design.
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
What we should be doing is:
1..Getting and looking at the internal parts of the older and different pumps.
2..Comparing the internal parts
3..Looking at the electronic fueling charts for all brands.
4..Making decisions on what to do.

What we are doing:
1..Speculating without much information
2..Makings things irrelevant instead of seeking relevant information from HPFPs that work.

I will see what I can dig up (if anything). Please everyone go on a HPFP hunt.

eddif
 

GTIDan

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2009
Location
So. California
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2010 Candy White Jetta, DSG
Bosch has been the leader in diesel fuel pumps for more than fifty (50) years where you going to turn?

According the the NHTSA report 2010 failures represent 0.11 percent. That means 99.89 percent run just fine. What more do you want??????
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
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Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Bosch has been the leader in diesel fuel pumps for more than fifty (50) years where you going to turn?

According the the NHTSA report 2010 failures represent 0.11 percent. That means 99.89 percent run just fine. What more do you want??????
The same reliability,as past model VW diesel fuel systems. And IF something fails in the fuel system it doesn't cost 1/2 to 1/3 of what the car sold for new. But what do I care..................I'm "driving more and worrying less" with my new gasser.
 

Softrockrenegade

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None...2011 Golf DSG (replaced by VW W/) 2013 Passat SE 6M(bought back) Current 2017 sportwagen TSI 4Motion.
Dweisel , did you have a hpfp fail or was it Reading some of the stories here that made you switch ?
 

eddif

Veteran Member
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Location
MS
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2004 Jetta PD Automatic
Bosch has been the leader in diesel fuel pumps for more than fifty (50) years where you going to turn?

According the the NHTSA report 2010 failures represent 0.11 percent. That means 99.89 percent run just fine. What more do you want??????
When I started on the PD cam failure work, I was told about being an alarmist. All sorts of people quoted the low percent of failures. When the mileages got high the failures increased. Now it is common to talk of replacing PD cams.

Looking at the design and hearing of the fueling mistakes made in Europe, warns me of the possible coming failures.

I want a 2012 Passat, but right now I would not buy one. I saw some changes in the fueling system, but not what I wanted to see (I will know more when information is released by VW...maybe the information will surprise me). But Hey here I go again being an alarmist. LOL

I will be happy if I can contain a failure to $2,000 USD (and that is terrible)

eddif
 

Birdman

Top Post Dawg
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Location
Near Hagerstown MD.
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Jetta 2001 Died by Truck one snowy day. Jetta 2003
If 90% really are from using gasoline, then the failure rate might be 0.01%, or 1/10,000 for folks that are sure to only use diesel. I'm just doing some wishful thinking with this, not trying to be a jerk.

I do wish I had a car with the November 2010 upgraded pump. I guess my car only has 2 of the updates. It would be nice to know what they did to improve the pump. Honestly, I wish they would just come up with something to prevent the debris from contaminating the fuel system. Then it would just be a new pump for a few hundred bucks, not really a big deal at all.
Since most truck haul all types of fuel in the same tanks it is highly possible for fuel to be contaminated when filling the trucks with fuel. Until tankers start hauling only diesel or gas or whatever there will be cross contamination.
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
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Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Dweisel , did you have a hpfp fail or was it Reading some of the stories here that made you switch ?
It kills both myself and my wife to drive gassers. We've both driven diesels for over 25 years. Never had a problem with a fuel system. EVER! The 09's came out and both of us were excited about owning new tdi's. We purchased two 09's. A Sedan for my wife and a JSW for me.My wife's hpfp failed at 11,000 miles and mine failed at just over 24,000. So, until the hpfp problem is fixed......................dweisel isn't diesel anymore.
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Dweisel, What is your new ride?
2011 JSW with the 2.5 gas/DGS. The wife went with the 2.5 manual Sedan. She likes it other than the hill assist. Only because that was the quickest and easiest route to make a trade. Plus VW threw in $2,000 trade assist. So that made it easier to swallow. BTW,they did not volunteer the "trade assist" and wanted to know where we heard about trade assist. We were told by a friend to ask for the trade assist.

The only real difference between the gas and diesels are: lack of torque and the mileage sucks! Other than that pretty much the same. I'd still rather be driving a diesel. Oh,well maybe some day in the distant future.
 

GTIDan

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
So. California
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2010 Candy White Jetta, DSG
It kills both myself and my wife to drive gassers. We've both driven diesels for over 25 years. Never had a problem with a fuel system. EVER! The 09's came out and both of us were excited about owning new tdi's. We purchased two 09's. A Sedan for my wife and a JSW for me.My wife's hpfp failed at 11,000 miles and mine failed at just over 24,000. So, until the hpfp problem is fixed......................dweisel isn't diesel anymore.
What are the odds that TWO HPFPs would fail on cars owned by the same people? What did to fuel samples show......or did they tell you? You sure gasoline was not put in the tanks by mistake? ........this just doesn't wash with me. Sorry. :)

I would think the odds of you ever having another failure would be slim and none. Me? I would have purchased another diesel and be done with it.
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
What are the odds that TWO HPFPs would fail on cars owned by the same people? What did to fuel samples show......or did they tell you? You sure gasoline was not put in the tanks by mistake? ........this just doesn't wash with me. Sorry. :)

I would think the odds of you ever having another failure would be slim and none. Me? I would have purchased another diesel and be done with it.
Yea, that's what I thought........................what are the odds. No fuel testing was done. The second car's failure was not even questioned. My wife and I are the only ones that ever fueled these cars and we've driven diesels for 25+ years. So, NO GAS was put in either car.You can believe that or not. Could be the fuel that caused our failures,but my 03 Beetle runs fine on the same fuel. So, that tells me its something in the hpfp design materials thats not compatible with the fuel. No use worrying about it. Its done. The only thing I can tell you is "drive more and worry less" I know my wife and I are.
 

silversx80

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Location
RTP, NC
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2010 Salsa Red JSW
I just took my car in for its 20K service and talked a bit with the service rep. He told me that over 30 cars have had an HPFP failure at this particular dealership, but only one had to be covered by the owner. 90% of the vehicles had tested for gasoline in the fuel, and one did not, but yielded the same symptoms (lab tests, not styrofoam-cup). Those were to fill up, drive for half a tank or so, and then the HPFP dies.

I was a little beside myself, so I inquired about the high percentage. He said that some were from the stations filling the tanks with the wrong fuel, and what a lot of smaller-volume fuel stations and suppliers do is put gasoline into the diesel tanks, intentionally, to kill algae. He also mentioned that the Mercedes pumps (that dealership is very close) are having the same issues.

Thought some might find that interesting. I'll be sticking with BP/Amoco fuels.
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
I just took my car in for its 20K service and talked a bit with the service rep. He told me that over 30 cars have had an HPFP failure at this particular dealership, but only one had to be covered by the owner. 90% of the vehicles had tested for gasoline in the fuel, and one did not, but yielded the same symptoms (lab tests, not styrofoam-cup). Those were to fill up, drive for half a tank or so, and then the HPFP dies.
HPFP failures are always going to be sometime after fueling up. Think about it.:rolleyes:
 

surfbus

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Location
WA State
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96 Passat, 03 Jetta
It kills both myself and my wife to drive gassers. We've both driven diesels for over 25 years. Never had a problem with a fuel system. EVER! The 09's came out and both of us were excited about owning new tdi's. We purchased two 09's. A Sedan for my wife and a JSW for me.My wife's hpfp failed at 11,000 miles and mine failed at just over 24,000. So, until the hpfp problem is fixed......................dweisel isn't diesel anymore.
I totally support your decision to bail on new Diesel cars. If i were you I would boycott VW altogether if both me and my wife both had a HPFP failure. All TDI's made post 2003 are total junk in my honest opinion. Even with the reliable engine platforms our family own (03 Jetta and 96 Passat) for TDI's everything else was just made to not last the long haul. Door handles, trunk locks, headliners, headlights... ect.
 
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dweisel

Top Post Dawg
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Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
I totally support your decision to bail on new Diesel cars. If i were you I would boycott VW altogether if both me and my wife both had a HPFP failure. All TDI's made post 2003 are totaly junk in my honest openion. Event with the reliable engine platforms me and my familly own for TDI's everything else was just made to not last. Door handles, trunk locks, headliners, headlights...
I'm not defending VW,but we have always been satisfied with our past VW tdi's.1985 Golf,1996 Passat Wagen,03 Beetle.We absolutely LOVED the two 09 Jetta's. Just hated the fuel system.

Yes,the little quirky problems can be agrivating at times,but also an interesting challenge to try and solve. Thats probably what keeps me here.
 

surfbus

Veteran Member
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WA State
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96 Passat, 03 Jetta
I'm not defending VW,but we have always been satisfied with our past VW tdi's.1985 Golf,1996 Passat Wagen,03 Beetle.We absolutely LOVED the two 09 Jetta's. Just hated the fuel system.

Yes,the little quirky problems can be agrivating at times,but also an interesting challenge to try and solve. Thats probably what keeps me here.
Only thing that keeps us here is fuel economy and power. If we lived in Europe it's almost certain a different brand name diesel auto would be our choice.
 

silversx80

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Location
RTP, NC
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2010 Salsa Red JSW
HPFP failures are always going to be sometime after fueling up. Think about it.:rolleyes:
Of course, but don't let your bias confuse the objectivity of cause and effect. Without isolating the variables, the only thing we can say is that it's the fuel. "What" about the fuel is only speculation until those variables are accounted for.

Think about it :rolleyes:

:p
 

GTIDan

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2010 Candy White Jetta, DSG
Of course, but don't let your bias confuse the objectivity of cause and effect. Without isolating the variables, the only thing we can say is that it's the fuel. "What" about the fuel is only speculation until those variables are accounted for.

Think about it :rolleyes:

:p
Good point :)
 

eddif

Veteran Member
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Location
MS
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2004 Jetta PD Automatic
Of course, but don't let your bias confuse the objectivity of cause and effect. Without isolating the variables, the only thing we can say is that it's the fuel. "What" about the fuel is only speculation until those variables are accounted for.

Think about it :rolleyes:

:p
We probably ought to take a holiday instead of work on the issues.

However: a lot of failures are usually associated with a driving safety issue. Every limp mode, stall, slow restart after stall, no start, rough running engine, blinking dash light distraction caused by a failing HPFP system. Not even to branch out a little to discuss a frozen intercooler system causing running issues, or total engine failure. This is the threads supposed direction.

In spite of all the issues and the long list of variables, there seem to be those who strive to have a VW diesel to drive (even if it means working on cars we do not own).

High on the list of things that cause failure is a HPFP that is, IMHO, not robust enough to make it through: A service station using 5 gallons (?) of gasoline in a 3 thousand (?) gallon underground tank to stop algae growth. A tanker having 5 gallons (?) of gasoline left in a hose bow or leaning tank situation, being mixed with the next load of diesel (if that happens). Insufficient additives added to fuel, or not totally mixed into delivered fuel. A car company that refuses to just say fuel quality is so bad we are allowing a temporary use of xxx brand additive (our our brand) till fuel supply issues can be resolved. Maybe even a regulatory system that helps assure good fuel.

I am sure that a gasoline fill by a relative is the owners fault, but historically all that was needed was a drain and filter change. Now it seems to be total failure started in sometimes three minutes. Progress to the point that the customer is at total fault at times.

I wonder how safe you can pull over while being forced to leave the highway traffic due to a failure at 70 MPH and thinking of the possible $8,000 USD cost of this evasive issue.

I have had several limp modes but only one really dangerous sudden situation with our PD. So why would I buy a CR that seems to have a higher risk of sudden emergency situations?

So lets list the variables and narrow them down till the cars are better off. Sticking our head in the sand and using avoidance of issues will not help solve CR problems.

eddif
 

dr.zed

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Man this thread was such a hijack.

Can somebody point to where the actual NHTSA updates are on the pump?
 

thebigarniedog

Master of the Obvious
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Location
Fail Command (Central Ohio)
TDI
1998 Jetta tdi
Man this thread was such a hijack.

Can somebody point to where the actual NHTSA updates are on the pump?

LOL :D. It is stuck where it is until such time as they either sweep it under the carpet or require VW to take corrective action (ie warranty extension or new design). Yes, people have discussed the same thing repeatedly (fuel cross contamination; poor lubricity; and weak design incompatible with the available US fuel supply).

Most are stuck on the same point: example BHTooefr still trying to compare (despite correction multiple pages back :p) a thirtsy truck diesel to a mizerly tdi pump. No comparison exist as the pump is lubricated by the fuel and more fuel means more lubrication and less effect from cross-contamination.

Since VW is not talking, my best guess is fuel contamination taking out a poor design pump. As long as the fuel jockey can swirl different fuels and dump fuel in different tanks --- there will be problems. The question is whether those problems are cumulative (ie such as the cam wear problem on PD engines) causing ultimate fail to a statistical level that grabs everyone's attention or they are isolated.
 

Second Turbo

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Kansas, USA
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Paralysis by analysis ?

dr.zed: > Can somebody point to where the actual NHTSA updates are on the pump?

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/defects/
Search for: EA11003
"This investigation has been upgraded to an Engineering Analysis to
continue to investigate the issues with mis-fueling and HPFP design
identified during the Preliminary Evaluation.
"

No real updates in many months.
 

darrelld

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Location
North Texas
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2014 Tesla Model S85, 2017 Chevy Bolt
Are there any reported failures of the November 2010 HPFP design? Probably would not have seen production until the 2011 TDI models hit, but there has now been almost 12 months of road time accumulated with these and the numbers of TDIs sold in that period far exceeds those of the 09-10 model years. Statistically you would expect some failures if from nothing but a legitimate misfuel?
 

DEZLBOY

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Arlington VA
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2000 Golf GLS, Candy White
Curious. Has anyone recently written to VW Corporate (not via the web) expressing concern about the HPFP in regards to the high rate of failure. Asking VW what they doing about the issue, are they anticipating replacing fuel pumps, extending the warranty, etc.

In my opinion due to the high cost of repair an extended warranty is not the solution - unless the warranty is good for the life of the car. After the normal extended warranty years or 700K miles (t) your VW will be worth less than the the repair price, especially if the pump failed after year ten.

The reason I ask is that we can speculate all we want, but VW is the only one that has the answers. I doubt VW will tell us what they know, which frankly is one reason why my next car my not be a VW. Corporate trust......
 

darrelld

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Location
North Texas
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2014 Tesla Model S85, 2017 Chevy Bolt
Curious. Has anyone recently written to VW Corporate (not via the web) expressing concern about the HPFP in regards to the high rate of failure. Asking VW what they doing about the issue, are they anticipating replacing fuel pumps, extending the warranty, etc.

In my opinion due to the high cost of repair an extended warranty is not the solution - unless the warranty is good for the life of the car. After the normal extended warranty years or 700K miles (t) your VW will be worth less than the the repair price, especially if the pump failed after year ten.

The reason I ask is that we can speculate all we want, but VW is the only one that has the answers. I doubt VW will tell us what they know, which frankly is one reason why my next car my not be a VW. Corporate trust......
NHTSA probably has all the info we need. The outcome of that investigation will determine much.

As for corporate trust, I owned a Lexus during well publicized death of a highway patrolman and his wife due to unintended acceleration issues. Toyota hid this at first then it became a corporate nightmare. I havent seen things at VW get that bad yet, I would rather have my engine die than it just take off and no way to shut it off.

Not making excuses for VW and my Jetta is my first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjfKrwCTghk
 
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