Storage battery discharges sitting on concrete ??

Gary Miyakawa

Admin Emeritus
Joined
Feb 24, 1999
Location
Roswell, Ga
TDI
1998 NB TDI
Ok rocket scientists, my brother (who IS a chemist) told me YEARS ago that a Storage battery will discharge faster if it is sitting on concrete than if you put a couple of pieces of wood (2x4, etc) under it..

Two questions...

Is it true ???

and if it IS true, WHY ???

Just Curious....
 

dparnell

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 14, 1999
Location
Herron Island, WA
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
NO, NO, NO---old wive's tale---I install TONs of batteries yearly---mine are forklift batteries with a metal housing---the inside bladder is plastic. Most auto batteries are housed in plastic. Tell him he FOS
!!!!

------------------
Forum's only distributor for nasty pills and suppositories---call me Snake
 

JeffT

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 4, 1999
Location
Diesel is diesel is diesel!
They way it was described to me was that old car batteries were constructed with a case of hard rubber or bakelite and therefore porous and able to somehow discharge to ground.

Modern batts arent porous like that and therefore not suseptable to a discharge through the case.

However I agree with dparnell, it probably was/is an old wives tale.
 

valois

Banned
Joined
Jan 11, 2000
Ever lie on wood, and conversly a concrete pad, it is generally a much larger mass and retains and soaks heat allot better, the explanation of older batteries is true, but in my mind it is still a good idea to insulate the battery with a piece of wood.
 

garrettp

Former Chip-Monk
Joined
May 23, 2000
Location
Oconto, WI
TDI
2000 JEDI
murry, before you cut them down, please please take a picrue and post it here


i would agree with valois and put something under it to insulate it, what's it gonna hurt?

garrett P.

------------------
2000 JEDI TDI Silver
Full Commander, Prime Minister of Power and all that is good
assistant to President Valois in the UPsolute territory
 

FlyTDI Guy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 3, 2001
Location
PNW
TDI
'01 Jetta GLS
Ah yes... the downside of searching. Sure drags up some oldies sometimes. Good to see the names of some of the ol' timers like Gary, valois and garrettp. Those were the days for sure. We've come a long ways...
 

Cliffman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Location
Hollister, Ca
TDI
None Yet!
Yep... Just trying to figure out why my battery keeps getting dragged down... After sitting for 3 days it's DOA! And it's not ever sitting on concrete!
 

FlyTDI Guy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 3, 2001
Location
PNW
TDI
'01 Jetta GLS
Yep... Just trying to figure out why my battery keeps getting dragged down... After sitting for 3 days it's DOA! And it's not ever sitting on concrete!
Well, the easy answer is it's shot... Lead/acid batteries don't take well to severe discharging. It's a quick downhill slope after it happens once. Don't know your circumstances but letting them go dead is a sure recipe for further, more frequent discharging. Deep cycle batteries are the answer to that problem, though still not bulletproof.
 

2004Nick

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2004
Location
Powell River, BC
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI Wagon
I also am a battery professional and I agree with Valois-----this is a persistent rumour
and any truth to it is a matter of heat. The battery doesn't dischage ELECTRICALLY
into the concrete, BUT they do "self discharge" a significant amount every day if there
is no trickle charge (like a solar module) to maintain them. ( No matter WHAT they are sitting on. Such as in a vehicle) I think the old saw about the concrete is simply that
a cement slab is OFTEN COLDER that the ambient air temp so the battery temp is more
likely closer to the slab temperature. And of course we all know (don't we?) that
battery capacities are greatly REDUCED AT COLDER TEMPS! GET IT? There is a TON
of misinformation out there about batteries! Ask a solar guy like me who has to maintain
big expensive batteries like in off-grid residences how batteries work. "solarnicky" in
British Columbia.
 

Jack Frost

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Location
Rural Manitoba
TDI
2009 Clean Diesel
I think the old saw about the concrete is simply that a cement slab is OFTEN COLDER that the ambient air temp so the battery temp is morelikely closer to the slab temperature.
There may be a grain of truth. At one time, cellars were cold and, dank and ill-ventilated if they were at all. It is possible that a battery sitting on a concrete cellar floor suffered because the electrolyte became stratified inside the battery and would not mix.
 

2004Nick

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2004
Location
Powell River, BC
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI Wagon
Jack Frost-----yes of course. But more likely the battery is just sulfated badly
(worn out) to the extent that it just will not take much of a charge and thus only
seems to be discharging but in reality did'nt have much of a charge to start with.
Sulfation is what kills most batteries and is caused by lead sulfate chrystalls forming
on the positve plates which forms aninsulating crust which interfers with the chemical
reaction which is how batteries WORK! this "sulfation" is usually caused by the battery
bing left sitting around in a discharged or partly discharged state. This is why solar
modules are worth their weight in gold by providing a trickle charge to keep batteries
alive. Any battery or bank of batteries that does NOT have at least a small solar panel
tirckle charging it will for sure have a much shorter life span. This I know for sure.
Solarnicky
 

Jack Frost

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Location
Rural Manitoba
TDI
2009 Clean Diesel
Another grain of truth - batteries left on a cement floor tend to become forgotton and self discharge until they become damaged.


Proof: Batteries left on the kitchen table will never sulfate or experience any damage at all :D
 

Cliffman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Location
Hollister, Ca
TDI
None Yet!
Jack Frost-----yes of course. But more likely the battery is just sulfated badly
(worn out) to the extent that it just will not take much of a charge and thus only
seems to be discharging but in reality did'nt have much of a charge to start with.
Sulfation is what kills most batteries and is caused by lead sulfate chrystalls forming
on the positve plates which forms aninsulating crust which interfers with the chemical
reaction which is how batteries WORK! this "sulfation" is usually caused by the battery
bing left sitting around in a discharged or partly discharged state. This is why solar
modules are worth their weight in gold by providing a trickle charge to keep batteries
alive. Any battery or bank of batteries that does NOT have at least a small solar panel
tirckle charging it will for sure have a much shorter life span. This I know for sure.
Solarnicky
The battery is only 1 year old...
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Another grain of truth - batteries left on a cement floor tend to become forgotton and self discharge until they become damaged.


Proof: Batteries left on the kitchen table will never sulfate or experience any damage at all :D
The husband that put it on the kitchen table may not come away undamaged.
 

2004Nick

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2004
Location
Powell River, BC
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI Wagon
Does'nt MATTER how OLD it is---it's a question of CARE. Any lead acid battery that is
just IGNORED (not trickle charged at least will have a very short life span indeed. If you
need a battery that can be ignored between charges try a gel-cell. They seem to hold up
much better in these conditions. Don't leak either. Just cost more! LOL
 

Cliffman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Location
Hollister, Ca
TDI
None Yet!
Does'nt MATTER how OLD it is---it's a question of CARE. Any lead acid battery that is
just IGNORED (not trickle charged at least will have a very short life span indeed. If you
need a battery that can be ignored between charges try a gel-cell. They seem to hold up
much better in these conditions. Don't leak either. Just cost more! LOL
Seems to me that 3 days sitting should not cause a battery to discharge to the point that it will not start my Jetta. Something has to be draining that battery.
 

FlyTDI Guy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 3, 2001
Location
PNW
TDI
'01 Jetta GLS
You should do two things:

Fully charge the battery and have it load tested.
Check the car for parasitic drain.
 

Cliffman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Location
Hollister, Ca
TDI
None Yet!
You should do two things:

Fully charge the battery and have it load tested.
Check the car for parasitic drain.
Well, I've been down this road with the previous battery that was only 2 years old. I bought the car used so I didn't know the history of the battery and assumed it was abused. There is a constant amp draw but I con't recall exactly what it was. I'll recheck and post it here so we can compare. Like I said, I have no aftermarket divices installed.
 

2004Nick

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2004
Location
Powell River, BC
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI Wagon
Easy to test for "phantom " loads. Connect a multimeter on amps or milliamps scale
between either battery post and the (disconnected ) cable. That will tell the story.
Maybe there is a short somewhere.
 

2004Nick

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2004
Location
Powell River, BC
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI Wagon
"Parasitic or "phantom" loads

Well, I've been down this road with the previous battery that was only 2 years old. I bought the car used so I didn't know the history of the battery and assumed it was abused. There is a constant amp draw but I con't recall exactly what it was. I'll recheck and post it here so we can compare. Like I said, I have no aftermarket divices installed.
If as you say you have a "constant amp draw, there's your answer-----just like
a bank account if you have "draws" you must arrange for a "deposit". If your
battery won't hold a charge DISCONNECTED then you obviously have a BATTERY
problem. Everybody blames the poor BATTERY!!!!!!
 
Top