No start: flashing glow plug indicator, broken crack shaft sensor wire, no fuel

m.walter

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2017
Location
California
TDI
2005 Passat GL TDI
No start: flashing glow plug indicator, broken crank shaft sensor wire, no fuel

I am looking for advice to get my 2005 Passat GL TDI running. When I put the key in run position, the glow plug indicator light flashes. When I turn to crank, it just keeps cranking. I found that I had a rodent problem. The thing was hanging out in the hollow just forward of the fuel pump. It chewed through the crankshaft sensor wire. I tried splicing the wire (at least yellow, black and bare leads ... the red was some kind of a thread). It was difficult because the insulation was really brittle. Part of the camshaft sensor wire is also exposed, but I don't think it is cut or shorting. The splice of the crankshaft sensor wire did nothing. I hear the ASV opening (I think) and it closes in two stages when I turn the key to off. When I turn the key to run, I also hear a relay click. Sounds like it is up in front of the windshield, maybe 219? I do NOT hear the familiar whoosh of fuel, so it seem that the fuel pump is not being energized. I checked what I thought was the relevant fuse, and it looked fine.

The repair of the crankshaft sensor wire may have not been successful, but I am wondering if there are other things to check before I put in an order for a new sensor.

Possibly related, for a few months now I have been getting an intermittent "Workshop Emissions" light. The code for it seemed to be intake valve motor. This light did not effect starting. I have, however experienced some harder starts in recent weeks. The day before it did not start, everything was normal. I am thinking the rat was busy that night and hence the next morning, blinking glow plug light and just cranking and no fuel whoosh sound.
 
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vwztips

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Location
Greenville, SC
TDI
2005 Passat GLS Wagon TDI 5 spd manual w/BSM delete 2011 Tiguan TDI/DSG 2005 Audi A4 Avant 6MQ TDI 2011 BMW X5 35d
Do you show any RPM while cranking? The better way to check is if you have VCDS you can check to see if you are showing RPM.

Splicing that particular wire succesfully can be a challenge.
 

vwztips

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Location
Greenville, SC
TDI
2005 Passat GLS Wagon TDI 5 spd manual w/BSM delete 2011 Tiguan TDI/DSG 2005 Audi A4 Avant 6MQ TDI 2011 BMW X5 35d
BTW sometimes my pump "swooshes" and sometimes it doesn't.
 

m.walter

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2017
Location
California
TDI
2005 Passat GL TDI
Thanks vwztips. No RPMs. As I was doing it, I was thinking that my splice was no good. I did it in a hurry and the insulation on the yellow and black wires was super brittle. There was also the red "wire" that was actually just like thread. I didn't splice this red b/c it could not be soldered. I will order a new one, along a replacement for the partially chewed-on cam position sensor too.

I feel like my fuel pump always swooshed, but maybe I don't listen all the time. I don't have VCDS. I've thought about buying it, especially since I've been getting this emissions workshop light and I also feel like fuel economy is off. I've made this car a long-term investment (Oilhammer did the balance shaft module replacement a few years ago). It is also time that I started doing more of the work on it myself.
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
Have you scanned the car to see what codes are set? If you have the flashing GP light, you will have codes that will point you in the right direction...
 

m.walter

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2017
Location
California
TDI
2005 Passat GL TDI
Bummer! No luck after I replaced both the camshaft position sensor and the crankshaft position sensor. Both had been chewed on. Still the same symptoms for turning the key to run: relay clicking, ASV making noises (opening?), flashing glow plug indicator, then after a few more seconds "Emissions Workshop" appears. At no point do I hear the familiar swoosh from the fuel pump. If I crank, there are no RPMs. When I turn the key off, I hear the ASV moving. It moves in two steps. It also seems to emit a high pitched "ringing" a couple seconds after everything else stops making noises. I think that the ASV is causing the emissions workshop warning. I have had it intermittently for the last few months. It never caused anything obvious with performance (and certainly did not give me no start conditions).

Thanks for the suggestion Windex. I don't have a scanner, but maybe it is time to invest. I will check with some friends first. I really want to avoid towing to a shop or worse, the dealer.
 

m.walter

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2017
Location
California
TDI
2005 Passat GL TDI
Hmmm, was thinking about this more. If I was cranking without a working crank position sensor, then the ecu is probably confused. So this shows my newbie status. I probably should have done this with the battery disconnected? Is resetting the ecu just a matter of disconnecting the battery for a few minutes? I have also seen people say that I need to touch the + and - wires together (not on the battery, of course). Sorry for the dumb questions. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
 

Scubanero

Veteran Member
Joined
May 30, 2007
Location
Calgary AB
TDI
2005 Passat Wagon
You can verify your fuel pump operation by disconnecting the return line and collecting the return flow in a bottle. You should get a couple of tablespoons when you turn the key ON without cranking.
 

m.walter

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2017
Location
California
TDI
2005 Passat GL TDI
I borrowed a scanner. The first code is P0727 (Engine Speed Input Circuit No Signal) and the second is P2100 (Throttle Actuator Control Motor Circuit/Open). I believe the P2100 is what gives me the Emissions Workshop warning, but I have had that before while the car was still operating somewhat normally. So I am going after P0727 as the main culprit.

I just replaced the engine crank position sensor. Perhaps there are a few possibilities: 1) I did something wrong while replacing the sensor (not much to go wrong, though), 2) my replacement part is defective (what are the odds?) or 3) there is something else in the engine speed circuit that went bad when I cranked the engine with the damaged crank position sensor.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I would remove the cowl cover (the part you remove to replace the cabin filter, battery, etc.) and check for chewed wires in there. Specifically, the part where the harness from the engine goes into the box on the driver side of the car. The Engine Controller lives in there, along with its power supply relay.

I would also see if any other modules have DTCs in them, specifically the CAN Gateway, Instrument Cluster, and the Transmission Controller.

The engine does crank normally, just does not start, correct? This is not a weak/dead battery issue then?
 

m.walter

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2017
Location
California
TDI
2005 Passat GL TDI
Thanks Brian. Cranking is normal. Battery has been on a charger; it is good.

I will look in the places you suggest. There was nothing obvious on the engine side of this area, so I am not hopeful. I will also see if the scanner I borrowed is able to find other DTCs.

Do you think I need to address the Throttle Actuator Control Motor Circuit/Open DTC in order to get past the no-start issue?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Well assuming your generic scan tool is giving you the correct info, the intake flap generally will not cause a no-start condition, as they spring load to the wide open position.
 

m.walter

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2017
Location
California
TDI
2005 Passat GL TDI
After an afternoon of looking and fiddling around, I still have not got her running. I did not see any issues with any other aspects of the wiring. I did peak into the ASV. There was a bunch of oily soot. I wiped it off as best as I could (without taking it off) and re-attached all the tubing. I went ahead and erased the DTCs on the scanner. This cleared the flashing glow-plug indicator light. Still, while cranking, the RPM gauge does not show anything and it will still throw the P0727 (Engine Speed Input Circuit No Signal) DTC on my generic scanner. Unfortunately, my generic scanner does not seem to check for any other modules.

After cranking for about 5 seconds, I get "STOP" and a brief flashing glow plug indicator and then oil pressure monitor. The Emissions Workshop message is intermittent. Currently, the glow plug light goes off when the key is in the on position. It all appears normal. It cranks with what sounds like normal speed, but ... it does not start and gives me the oil press warning. I measured resistance on the CKPS and saw 488 ohms across two pins. I have not tried to check the CKPS while cranking.

Did I need to re-set anything after installing the CKPS? I did replace the cam position sensor as well, but both of these replacements were painless and uneventful. Could anything have gone bad (fuses, relays, ECU, Fuel pump?) while I was trying to start the car with the bad CKPS in the first place?

I am definitely out of things to try. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
I would say that you need to start checking the wires to the CKP. You have looked things over but now you need to test the wires between the ECU and CKP. Don't rely on a simple continuity check, to test the wires, you need to test them with a load.
 

vwztips

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Location
Greenville, SC
TDI
2005 Passat GLS Wagon TDI 5 spd manual w/BSM delete 2011 Tiguan TDI/DSG 2005 Audi A4 Avant 6MQ TDI 2011 BMW X5 35d
One other thing, where did you get the crank sensor? Someone else recently replaced theirs and the replacement was bad.

Also did you compare the new sensor to the old one. Some are shorter than others. I think the 1.8t is shorter. It is possible you got the wrong one. Remove the new one and compare to the old one, before you do a bunch of diagnostics. Usually it is the simple stuff.......
 

Vince Waldon

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
Small comfort, but just so's you know the oil pressure alarm is normal... the car expects the engine to start and establish oil pressure after a short period of cranking (with little or no low oil pressure) and when it doesn't car complains. :)

Not related to your problem, but not something new to worry about, either. :)
 
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m.walter

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2017
Location
California
TDI
2005 Passat GL TDI
Thanks everyone. I had though oil pressure alarm might be "normal" in this situation, but it is good to hear from someone who knows.

I got the sensor here: http://www.rmeuropean.com/Products/038907319E-MFG375-V9462.aspx (great price). It is supposed to be OEM, and from the packaging it looks that way. I did not compare the lengths. That is a good point; I will do it. Overall it looked the same. It did occur to me that the sensor could be bad. I think that the 488 ohms that I measured is in the right range for a 3-wire CKPS (I've been googling this like crazy).

From external appearances, the rest of the wiring was not disturbed and I can't think of why anything else would go bad in the wiring. If I was to look for a signal while cranking, I'm assuming it would be a voltage. Where should I tap into it? I have access to a research-grade oscilloscope, but this seems like overkill. Would a better scanner (https://store.ross-tech.com/shop/vchv2_ent/) make it apparent what is going on?

I keep coming back to the missing swoosh sound from the fuel system. Then again, perhaps more importantly, I am also still missing any tachometer movement while cranking. I've never looked at RPM while cranking. I'm assuming it should show something? If not, then I might need to start looking at the fuel system?
 

m.walter

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2017
Location
California
TDI
2005 Passat GL TDI
I figured I would see if fuel is being pushed in. Big mistake. I thought I could just look at what was coming out at the filter. In the process I broke T-connector at the fuel filter. Now I need to wait for that part. In the process, I did see that fuel is moving when the key is put in the on position.

With nothing else to try, I took off the new CKPS that I installed to take a closer look. The barrels are identical, even down to the o-ring color. The first picture shows this. The top one is the new one. However, look closer and you can see that the emblem was scratched off with some kind of rotary tool. In addition, the flange with bolt hole looks different and is not flat. The second picture _attempts_ to show what happens when you butt them together flange-to-flange. The new one comes up about 1mm short because the flange is not flat. I gotta assume this is my problem. I'm calling the parts supplier first thing tomorrow, and I'll be looking for answers.

Any suggestions on where I can get a good CKPS quickly and without costing an arm and a leg? I'm in Southern California.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=121897&title=20170319t204911-01&cat=allhttp://pics.tdiclub.com/data/uploads//507775/20170319T204911-01.jpg

http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=121898&title=20170319t205028-02&cat=all
 
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vwztips

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Location
Greenville, SC
TDI
2005 Passat GLS Wagon TDI 5 spd manual w/BSM delete 2011 Tiguan TDI/DSG 2005 Audi A4 Avant 6MQ TDI 2011 BMW X5 35d
Not sure that is significant enough to cause an issue. However what brand of sensor are you using?

You can call Aaron at Cascade (Bora). He probably has a vendor in SCal that can get you one in a day or 2.
 

m.walter

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2017
Location
California
TDI
2005 Passat GL TDI
Thanks. I was just talking to a different vendor who thought that the difference in length was also not significant enough to fix it. I will also call Cascade. At this point I have to try another one. I don't know what else to do.

This is what it says on the website:
Volkswagen O.E.M Crankshaft Sensor is currently In stock and ready to ship. This O.E.M Crankshaft Sensor is manufactured by O.E.M. Part number for this O.E.M Crankshaft Sensor is 038907319E
Manufacturer: O.E.M.

My original part has an Audi/VW symbol. On the new one the emblem/manufacturer on the part was clearly removed with a dremel-type tool. I was told that they have to do that when they sell O.E.M. parts.
 

m.walter

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2017
Location
California
TDI
2005 Passat GL TDI
Success!

So the gap was the difference. However ... the gap was my fault. I was relying on the bolt to seat the 0-ring. Turns out that it was deforming the sensor flange. I straightened the flange, used a small persuader to push the sensor in all the way, and voila, started on the first turn.

Thanks for all the suggestions and the patience with my long drawn out explanations. Sorry that it was such a dumb mistake on my part. I am inspired to fix some other things. One is that sooty ASV and Emissions Workshop (currently not on). I also suspect that the turbo is not working right (very sluggish). Fuel economy is way too low, even for SoCal city driving. I get this loud gurgling sound with acceleration. I'll be starting some new threads after I give everyone a break.

But first, if I am going to diagnose things better, what would you all recommend for a scanner. Is VCDS and https://store.ross-tech.com/shop/vchv2_ent/ best for my situation? Other suggestions?

Thanks everyone!
https://store.ross-tech.com/shop/vchv2_ent/
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Success!

So the gap was the difference. However ... the gap was my fault. I was relying on the bolt to seat the 0-ring. Turns out that it was deforming the sensor flange. I straightened the flange, used a small persuader to push the sensor in all the way, and voila, started on the first turn.

Thanks for all the suggestions and the patience with my long drawn out explanations. Sorry that it was such a dumb mistake on my part. I am inspired to fix some other things. One is that sooty ASV and Emissions Workshop (currently not on). I also suspect that the turbo is not working right (very sluggish). Fuel economy is way too low, even for SoCal city driving. I get this loud gurgling sound with acceleration. I'll be starting some new threads after I give everyone a break.

But first, if I am going to diagnose things better, what would you all recommend for a scanner. Is VCDS and https://store.ross-tech.com/shop/vchv2_ent/ best for my situation? Other suggestions?

Thanks everyone!
https://store.ross-tech.com/shop/vchv2_ent/
Not only is the scanner great, but the support you get from them if you buy genuine is great. Of course if you but pirated stuff, Ewe has no trouble telling you to stuff it. And he isnt soft and nice about it either.:D
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
Crank sensor is under the fuel filter on the BHW Passat. Really fun to get to. You'll need to remove a few brackets to access it and then move another to get the wire for it removed that ends at the firewall.
 

PRtime

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Joined
Nov 14, 2020
Location
Washington
TDI
Jetta
I think I have found it. Front of engine block to the right of the oil filter,
Thanks for the reply PickleRick
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
I couldn't answer that as I only have experience pulling (several) faulty cank sensors from the BHW engine. This is the b5/b5.5 forum so it's mostly BHW based as that's the only diesel of the b5 platform released in north America. Some on here are familiar with the BEW so maybe someone can chime in.

No oil comes out on the BHW engine when removing the crank sensor.
 
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