Pp520 vs sprint 520

50harleyrider

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Location
charleston,wv
TDI
2005 B5.5 TDI/geared BSM, BV43A turbo,stage 2 TDTUNING. 2005 5sp manual passat tdi stage 2 tdtuning,BSM delete. 2015 Passat TDI 6sp manual.
I had an opportunity to test this today on the freeway during my shakedown run for my new clutch. I wound up behind a slow car doing about 40 on a uniformly moderate grade. I thought of this thread so I held behind him in 5th for a few seconds, then went to pass, pushing to about 1/2 pedal. I could not detect a shudder or poor running. Car has RC-2 and titan 502's.
Have you ever had the problem? Your about the first one with similar mods that does not.
 

50harleyrider

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Location
charleston,wv
TDI
2005 B5.5 TDI/geared BSM, BV43A turbo,stage 2 TDTUNING. 2005 5sp manual passat tdi stage 2 tdtuning,BSM delete. 2015 Passat TDI 6sp manual.
Some of us have already tried IQ adjustments with out improvement.....
I've tried IQ from 3-6 with no improvement Abacus. I might try less than 3 and if it helps maybe I'll live with the smoke.
 

Yblocker

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Location
Oakland, CA
TDI
1997 Passat
I've had the car for about a year and a half, and I can't say I've noticed it before or after the RC-2 tune which Jeff did in Spring 2011. Timing is adapted advanced about 2 degrees, and IQ is currently about 5.5 which gives a haze with the Titan 502 (.205) nozzles. There is another steeper grade up a rural city street near me. The speed limit is 35 mph, and I regularly drive that in 4th very easily with no shudder.
 

GTiTDi

TDIClub Enthusiast, Macht Schnell! Vendor , w/Busi
Joined
Oct 18, 2010
Location
3 Spruce st Wareham, gateway to Cape Cod Massachus
TDI
'91 GTI CJAA swap,'02 Jetta wagon ALH swap, '03 GTI 1.8T rally car, '03 Sprinter 3500
I've had the car for about a year and a half, and I can't say I've noticed it before or after the RC-2 tune which Jeff did in Spring 2011. Timing is adapted advanced about 2 degrees, and IQ is currently about 5.5 which gives a haze with the Titan 502 (.205) nozzles. There is another steeper grade up a rural city street near me. The speed limit is 35 mph, and I regularly drive that in 4th very easily with no shudder.
What are the ambient temperatures where you live? I noticed the problem was worse when it was cold out, around 25 * farenheit
 

Yblocker

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Location
Oakland, CA
TDI
1997 Passat
Mild. Summers range between 55 to 90 deg F. Winter time temps range from 40 to 60 deg F, dropping to as low as 30 deg maybe 5 times per winter.
 

50harleyrider

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Location
charleston,wv
TDI
2005 B5.5 TDI/geared BSM, BV43A turbo,stage 2 TDTUNING. 2005 5sp manual passat tdi stage 2 tdtuning,BSM delete. 2015 Passat TDI 6sp manual.
lower your IQ to around 3.5 to 4 and the shudder will go away
Good point- I did lower the IQ to 2.8-3 on the sprint 520 car and sure enough it did go away. Still having issues with the PP520 car though. I can get the shudder to almost go away at IQ=3.0 but it starts smoking then under heavy acceleration. As I raise it point by point,the shudder comes back as the smoking subsides so for now,I'll keep it at 3.0 and hopefully someone will come up with a fix. Both injector sets were low smoke calibrated by Kerma. That may be my whole problem. Since the sprints are close to stock ,it makes sense they were easier to IQ adjust the shudder away. These cars are very sensitive to IQ,so I would advise everyone to test at every .2 point starting at 2.8.
 
Last edited:

50harleyrider

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Location
charleston,wv
TDI
2005 B5.5 TDI/geared BSM, BV43A turbo,stage 2 TDTUNING. 2005 5sp manual passat tdi stage 2 tdtuning,BSM delete. 2015 Passat TDI 6sp manual.
I've tried IQ from 3-6 with no improvement Abacus. I might try less than 3 and if it helps maybe I'll live with the smoke.
Per my last post, it seems to work on the smaller sprint nozzles but the PP520s are still a problem. Also temp doesn't seem to matter.
 

16vjohn

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Location
Salt Lake City, UT
TDI
EA288 CVCA 6MT
Perhaps it would help you to know that my car (98 A3) is experiencing a minor shudder in the ~1600 rpm range like many other people experience. I can easily duplicate the symptoms in 5th gear, but I notice a less severe shudder in almost any gear. It appears to be at certain loads. It's annoying, but the car is still fully drivable. The shudder appeared after installing Titan 520 (.216) injectors. According to VCDS, they are closely balanced. I'm going to fiddle with the IQ and timing later today and I'll report back... but yeah, no chip/tune or anything on this car. Disconnecting the VSS does help.
 

50harleyrider

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Location
charleston,wv
TDI
2005 B5.5 TDI/geared BSM, BV43A turbo,stage 2 TDTUNING. 2005 5sp manual passat tdi stage 2 tdtuning,BSM delete. 2015 Passat TDI 6sp manual.
Come on guys...giving up our CC for the sake of eliminating the shudder is not the way to go. There must be a fix.
 

16vjohn

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Location
Salt Lake City, UT
TDI
EA288 CVCA 6MT
Well, the fix would be to go back to stock, the way that VW intended the car to be run, with a certain fuel map and certain injectors. You're now running the fuel delivery system outside its intended specifications. So really the question you should be asking is how do we continue to deceive the ECU into thinking one thing to get rid of a symptom of another deception?

I added a switch on the blank plate near the radio, connecting the VSS back to the ECU. Works like a charm and it's hardly a hassle.
 

Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
That's not shudder. That's lugging. In 4th and 5th you are in 'overdrive'. Around 1750-1800 is the lowest you can go in either gear and the engine is struggling a bit to keep on power while spinning too slowly.

If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me, but from my research here on the club about shift points and how the engine feels. With the vibration being characteristic of lugging when in 1st-3rd but extending to a slightly RPM range makes sense since the gearing in 4th and 5 puts the engine at a mechanical disadvantage.
You are incorrect.... I ran factory Bosch 520 nozzles with stock chipset in my 1998 jetta tdi, and my 5th gear would pull cleanly off of 1100 rpm. IQ was set at 4.5, stock 195-60-14 tires on stock aluminum alloy rims.

Never, ever had stutter with my 1998 jetta regardless of IQ settings. I set mine up for less smoke. Cruise control always worked without issue.

Run the stock chip tune with the sprint nozzles and get back to us on how it runs.
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
Has anybody contacted RC, and if so has he gotten back to anyone?

I'm researching nozzles and chips. RC was a company I've considered, but this issue would easily rule him out. Are his tunes that good where people are willing to deal with this?

-Todd
 

50harleyrider

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Location
charleston,wv
TDI
2005 B5.5 TDI/geared BSM, BV43A turbo,stage 2 TDTUNING. 2005 5sp manual passat tdi stage 2 tdtuning,BSM delete. 2015 Passat TDI 6sp manual.
Jeff never answered me back but he is a busy man and I didn't try calling him. My shuddering is hardly noticeable now that the summer blends of fuel are out. I suspected winter blend may have been the culprit. I still highly recommend a tune. RC2 if your only doing nozzles.
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
I have a RC2+ and am very happy with it, but still have the shudder despite the non-winter fuel. I just got the PP520's back from Kerma (DBW) and will see if the shudder is still present with them. If so, I'll put a switch inline with the VSS and see if that makes a difference. It is annoying.
 

ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
That's something else I was wondering.... how many people are doing the hot swap program? Having the injectors matched may help the issue.

Are DBW, LLC and Kerma the same company? 2 different sites with different pricing. DBW claims that his company is the only one with the specialized equipment to properly set the pop pressures on these nozzles.

One site offers the hot swap, but also mentions letting the nozzles run in for 500 miles. I thought this was confusing.

-Todd
 

50harleyrider

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Location
charleston,wv
TDI
2005 B5.5 TDI/geared BSM, BV43A turbo,stage 2 TDTUNING. 2005 5sp manual passat tdi stage 2 tdtuning,BSM delete. 2015 Passat TDI 6sp manual.
That's something else I was wondering.... how many people are doing the hot swap program? Having the injectors matched may help the issue.

Are DBW, LLC and Kerma the same company? 2 different sites with different pricing. DBW claims that his company is the only one with the specialized equipment to properly set the pop pressures on these nozzles.

One site offers the hot swap, but also mentions letting the nozzles run in for 500 miles. I thought this was confusing.

-Todd
I've done two hot swaps with Kerma. No problems. Just make sure you take the bolt and tubing barb fitting off #2 or 3 for the bypass or you won't get it back. Kerma definitely has pop capabilty and gives you the numbers for each injector when he sends them back. If Drivebywire sees this thread, he'll comment. I've found Paul to be very accomodating if there are any issues.
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
They sent mine back as I forgot to take them off when I sent them 2 sets for cleaning and calibration.

Kerma uses DBW's calibration setup, so I think they have a partnership if they are not the same company. The address I sent them to using Kerma's forms is DBW.

I have not done the hot swap program since I had a spare set of injectors and a spare B4, so I cannot comment on it, sorry.
 

Houpty GT

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2008
Location
South Carolina
TDI
Corrado TDI, 2000 Golf, 1996 B4 Variant
I have a RC2+ and am very happy with it, but still have the shudder despite the non-winter fuel. I just got the PP520's back from Kerma (DBW) and will see if the shudder is still present with them. If so, I'll put a switch inline with the VSS and see if that makes a difference. It is annoying.
Did the injectors stop your shuttuddering(TM)?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
This issue has been around for years, no known fix for RC tuned cars that I've found. I dealt with it in my '97 A3 and finally gave up and went back to stock tuning. It would always shudder with Bosch .205s and with PP357s, right at 1600 in 4th and 5th. I think it's a simple problem of the combination of a tune and larger nozzles (either alone seems OK) causing some kind of fueling issue and shudder.

The B4 I just bought has a very mild RC2 (fuel economy focused) and stock nozzles. No shudder. And when I had an Aligator tune in my A3 it didn't shudder. However, Jeff showed me the fuel maps in that tune and it added no fuel. My son's A3 has RC2 and stock nozzles, has never shuddered. My last B4 had stock nozzles and an RC tune in the BK ECU, and later RC3 in a GQ. No shudder. My latest B4 has an FA ECU. And my A3 had an ED, later re-flashed to a JB to get rid of the shudder. Didn't work. So I don't think it's ECU dependent, or, said another way, all the early ECUs can cause shudder.

I really don't think there's an answer to this without the electronic mods described here.
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
I like Jeff's tunes and he is a great guy, but this has been a known issue for a long time and he seems to refuse to believe it's due to his tune and not the car. Due to that, I have been thinking of trying a Malone tune for the next one, just so I don't have to deal with it.

Removing the wire is easy enough, and it took longer to remove the lower panel than to remove the wire, but I shouldn't have to. It has happened on the GQ with the RC3+, the FA with the RC2+, and the JB with the GQ RC3+ chips, and is definitely much worse with more fuel. I swappd it into my brother's B4 with stock 190Bar injectors and it was still present, but not as much. I can only conclude it's an issue with the tune and is exacerbated with more fuel. Adjusting the IQ was the first thing I tried and it made no difference.

It's the refusing to acknowledge the issue that is the problem for me. As I said, Jeff is a great guy and I love his tunes otherwise, but the shudder makes driving the cars miserable. I haven't tossed a switch in place yet but will soon because we're headed to Florida in a month and I will want to use the cruise control.
 

starrd

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2003
Location
Canada
TDI
1996 Passat
I have a Malone 4.5 tune on my GQ ECU with PP357's, and K03/04 hybrid and I have the shudder also. I also have a RC3 tune for the GQ ECU that I ran with stock nozzles and stock turbo (18 psi) and it also did this.

I have also played with the IQ and timing but with no success. I have just adjusted my driving style to minimize this by shifting down to 4th earlier than I would with my TD Passat.
 

Houpty GT

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2008
Location
South Carolina
TDI
Corrado TDI, 2000 Golf, 1996 B4 Variant
To be fair, the root cause is definitely not the tune. It may be something that makes it worse just as the nozzles can. My shutter has gotten worse through the years and disconnecting the speed sensor is not an option for me since it gives me bucking in 1st and 2nd gear.
I think there is something in particular that wears on the non-ribbed pumps that leads to this problem. Perhaps it is the valves? I purchased an 11mm pump and will install it to see if it goes away. Results to come in 3 weeks.

UPDATE 5/28/13: Pump nor quantity adjuster solved shuddering.
 
Last edited:

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I think you may be on to something. The timing line on my '97 A3 always "floated" indicating fuel was getting past the piston. The red B4 didn't show this. My '97 B4 got a new pump about 50K ago so I'll have to check to see if it's ribbed and if the timing line is steady.
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
With the stock ECU the shudder goes away. This was noticed with swapping the RC3 into my brother's B4 with the stock injectors and swapping a stock BK and then GQ into the wife's B4 and the B4V with upgraded injectors.

The other wagon had no shudder with the stock injectors and the Wett chips.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Doesn't mean it's not a pump issue. The lower fuel request from a stock tune may prevent it from occurring. My '97 didn't shudder with the stock ECU and .205s, but did with RC. Didn't with Aligator. But as I mentioned above, Aligator's tune added no fuel.
 
Top