Stop fueling with Propel HPR Diesel

Geomorph

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Just stopped at a 76 station with the renewable diesel. They only had renewable diesel and not the standard petroleum variety. Very interesting. And nice to have another source of renewable diesel.
 

romad

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Just stopped at a 76 station with the renewable diesel. They only had renewable diesel and not the standard petroleum variety. Very interesting. And nice to have another source of renewable diesel.

How does the price compare to other 76 stations that just have D2? Also, where in the Sacto area was the station you visited?
 

Geomorph

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How does the price compare to other 76 stations that just have D2? Also, where in the Sacto area was the station you visited?
I don’t how the price compares to other 76 stations. I have pretty much only used Propel HPR since it has been available. From what I have seen, the price seemed about the same as regular diesel and Propel HPR. This 76 station is at the corner of Fair Oaks Blvd and Watt Ave.
 

CleverUserName

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I was told that Propel isn't sourcing their renewable diesel from Neste any longer, instead relying on smaller independent refineries in North America.

I'm excited to know there is another option at 76 stations, however the 2 locations in Sacramento are not convenient for me so I will continue to use Propel.
 

romad

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There are NO renewable diesel locations here in Northern California as they are all located in the central and southern regions. The closest are down south in the Sacto Metro area at the north end of Central California. Since Propel is headquartered in Sacramento and Golden Gate Petroleum in the Bay Area (Martinez), they ignore Northern California as is typical of those areas.
 

kiwibru

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You guys are lucky. Go even further north and it gets even harder to find. Washington state in particular is slowly loosing touch with sources.
 

romad

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You guys are lucky. Go even further north and it gets even harder to find. Washington state in particular is slowly loosing touch with sources.

IIRC, Propel only sold E85 & BioDiesel (no Renewable Diesel) in the Seattle area but it looks like they pulled all their locations up there.
 

atc98002

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I wish a mod would rename this thread. It's bogus and the OP hasn't posted for a very long time.
 

romad

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I was told that Propel isn't sourcing their renewable diesel from Neste any longer, instead relying on smaller independent refineries in North America.

I'm excited to know there is another option at 76 stations, however the 2 locations in Sacramento are not convenient for me so I will continue to use Propel.

I sent Propel an email asking about this and they are now sourcing from REG.
 

romad

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I don't believe there is much difference between Neste & REG since they both use a similar process. What IS interesting is that Propel previously said their RD had a 70 Cetane number and REG says their RD has a 60 number. I wonder what determines the number, the type biomass used, ratio of animal to vegi biomass, or just amount of refining? Also, I suspect that RD from U.S. production will be higher priced than earlier RD. If the U.S. really wants to see an increase of RD vs D2, then they need to continue massively reduced taxes on RD.
 

Louie710

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Ive seen Neste RD leak so if REG RD doesn't leak that alone is a huge difference to me lol. 76 RD claims 70+centane so if REG RD is 60 that means 76 might be getting it somewhere else, or adding an additive package
 

Louie710

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I wonder what determines the number, the type biomass used, ratio of animal to vegi biomass, or just amount of refining?
You made me wonder the same thing. I found this on the interwebs



Hexadecane (cetane)
is the reference compound used to assess the ignition
quality of a diesel fuel on the cetane scale, a concept
similar to the octane number used for gasoline. The
carbon chain length of the alkanes present in diesel fuel
determines the cetane number.
Diesel fuels containing large amounts of shorter-
chain and isomerized species have lower cetane num-
bers while diesel fuels consisting mainly of long-chain
alkanes have higher cetane number. ASTM D975 and EN
590 are the commonly used petroleum diesel standards
in the United Stated and Europe, respectively.
In general, vegetable oils consist primarily of triac-
ylglyceride molecules. Low concentrations (<2 percent)
of free fatty acid (FFA) molecules are also present in
vegetable oils. Both triacylglycerides and FFAs contain
relatively long, linear aliphatic hydrocarbon chains,
which are partially unsaturated and have a carbon chain
length and molecular weight similar to the molecules
found in petroleum diesel.
Hence, the cetane number of diesel fuels derived
from renewable resources such as vegetable oils is high,
over 70. Long-chain alkanes are less desirable because
of their adverse effects on low temperature properties
of diesel fuels. Shorter-chain compounds improve cold
flow properties of diesel fuels.
 

romad

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Ive seen Neste RD leak so if REG RD doesn't leak that alone is a huge difference to me lol. 76 RD claims 70+centane so if REG RD is 60 that means 76 might be getting it somewhere else, or adding an additive package

Oops I may have reversed the cetane numbers. if so, :eek:

What do you mean by "leak"? I've carried Propel's Neste-sourced DieselHPR in a fuel container and never saw a leak.
 

romad

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You made me wonder the same thing. I found this on the interwebs

Hexadecane (cetane)
is the reference compound used to assess the ignition
quality of a diesel fuel on the cetane scale, a concept
similar to the octane number used for gasoline. The
carbon chain length of the alkanes present in diesel fuel
determines the cetane number.
Diesel fuels containing large amounts of shorter-
chain and isomerized species have lower cetane num-
bers while diesel fuels consisting mainly of long-chain
alkanes have higher cetane number. ASTM D975 and EN
590 are the commonly used petroleum diesel standards
in the United Stated and Europe, respectively.
In general, vegetable oils consist primarily of triac-
ylglyceride molecules. Low concentrations (<2 percent)
of free fatty acid (FFA) molecules are also present in
vegetable oils. Both triacylglycerides and FFAs contain
relatively long, linear aliphatic hydrocarbon chains,
which are partially unsaturated and have a carbon chain
length and molecular weight similar to the molecules
found in petroleum diesel.
Hence, the cetane number of diesel fuels derived
from renewable resources such as vegetable oils is high,
over 70. Long-chain alkanes are less desirable because
of their adverse effects on low temperature properties
of diesel fuels. Shorter-chain compounds improve cold
flow properties of diesel fuels.

Thanks, Louie.

So a lower cetane numbered RD may have a higher animal biomass to vegetable biomass ratio, if I understand the citation.
 

Louie710

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Oops I may have reversed the cetane numbers. if so, :eek:

What do you mean by "leak"? I've carried Propel's Neste-sourced DieselHPR in a fuel container and never saw a leak.
Leak as in it leaks in your car when you use it. It seems like there is a good handful of people who have had this experience. Ive seen it happen first hand on alh engines. Im sure its safe for newer vehicles tho. And im sure it has more to do with the vehicle itself than the fuel, but after seeing what i saw id rather be safe and just avoid the stuff. Im definitely down to give it a try now if they have a new supplier tho. I recently learned that these companies dont make their own RD they just buy it and resell it
 

Louie710

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Thanks, Louie.

So a lower cetane numbered RD may have a higher animal biomass to vegetable biomass ratio, if I understand the citation.
A few paragraphs later it says animal fats reduce the viscosity to closer to that of petroleum diesel so yes it seems your statement may be accurate
 

romad

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Leak as in it leaks in your car when you use it. It seems like there is a good handful of people who have had this experience. Ive seen it happen first hand on alh engines. Im sure its safe for newer vehicles tho. And im sure it has more to do with the vehicle itself than the fuel, but after seeing what i saw id rather be safe and just avoid the stuff. Im definitely down to give it a try now if they have a new supplier tho. I recently learned that these companies dont make their own RD they just buy it and resell it

I had a similar problem with my Rabbit Diesel pickup back in the 90s with D2 and fuel line but what you seem to be referring to is a known problem with switching between BD & D2, especially on older engines. It has something to do with the composition of the seals VW used, IIRC.
 

Louie710

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Im aware of the biodiesel thing with swelling/shrinking seals. I never found any type of article or publication that says renewable may have the same ill effects tho?
 

MAXRPM

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Ive been switching back and forth HPR and D2 on my 2 ALHs and no ill reported and Ive been doing it for approx. 3 years already so it may not be the case here, we may be dealing with ALH cars with a history in the past using Bio then D2 and now HPR, in my case Ive never used the BIO for my ALHs.
 

Louie710

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Well the 76 RD ended up leaking from my injection pump. I think it got into my oil as well. Filled back up with regular diesel and the leak is gone. Has my car ever been filled with biodiesel? I have no clue. Its a 02 wagon i bought with a salvaged title 210k miles automatic transmission and no type of info on past maintenance. Its at 233k now
 

romad

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I had seepage from my tandem pump but that was before I ever used Propel.
 

KLXD

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Well the 76 RD ended up leaking from my injection pump. I think it got into my oil as well. Filled back up with regular diesel and the leak is gone. Has my car ever been filled with biodiesel? I have no clue. Its a 02 wagon i bought with a salvaged title 210k miles automatic transmission and no type of info on past maintenance. Its at 233k now
How would it get into the oil? Is the stuff not burning?

Have you ever replaced the seals? If not I'm surprised it doesn't leak with D2. My '2 leaked with D2. Never used anything else.
 
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Louie710

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How would it get into the oil? Is the stuff not burning?

Have you ever replaced the seals? If not I'm surprised it doesn't leak with D2. My '2 leaked with D2. Never used anything else.
Leak at the injectors. My oil level went up and its definitely not coolant thats getting in there or id have a whole bunch of chocolate milk to put in the fridge lol and ive never heard of oil levels just magically rising without adding more oil

Leaking from regular d2? Are you the original owner? If not maybe it was ran on bio in the past?
 

Geomorph

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Just the change from Low Sulfur to Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel caused fuel leaks in a bunch of ALH engined injection pumps around 2006 to 2007. This happened to mine and I ended up with a new injection pump paid for by warranty. There was no option to continue to use the higher Sulfur fuel. I don’t know if this has anything to do with it but HPR and renewable diesel have even less sulfur than ULSD.

Anyway, the leaks when switching to HPR or renewable diesel might be considered a warning that your pump seals are aged. The pump will probably eventually start leaking no matter what fuel you run.
 
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romad

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I don’t know if this has anything to do with it but HPR and renewable diesel have even less sulfur than ULSD.

ULSD limit is 15ppm. Neste says their renewable fuel is less than 5ppm, while REG says theirs is 2ppm. The original reduction was about 97%, IIRC; Neste is at least 99% of the original level while REG is about 99.6%. However if you just use the 15ppm of ULSD D2, then Neste reduces that at least 66% while REG reduces it 86.7%.
 

Louie710

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Anyway, the leaks when switching to HPR or renewable diesel might be considered a warning that your pump seals are aged. The pump will probably eventually start leaking no matter what fuel you run.
Yeah i knew the risk before i did it. Fortunately the leaking stopped with regular #2. I will be keeping an eye on it in the future tho now that the system has been compromised
 

Lightflyer1

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Consider the OP posted this 4 years ago, only made 3 or 4 posts over two days, hung around for about 8 months not posting and then disappeared. Now that is weird or the sign of a troll.
 
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