iamatt
Veteran Member
So what exactly is going on when the clutch is shuddering?
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Kerma tune + vibration
- Thread starter mercdude
- Start date
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
"Wide open from lower RPM in 5th/6th is usually the main culprit."
Ie, don't lug it. Get an SMF and a Fluidampr. Torque is overpowering the DMF.
Ie, don't lug it. Get an SMF and a Fluidampr. Torque is overpowering the DMF.
adjat84th
Veteran Member
I would find out if his particular 02Q has the newer steel synchros by looking them up by VIN before getting an SMF. Even with Fluidampr they will break at some point, might get lucky and make it 50k miles but to me that is not good enough.
Mercdude, you could try a Fluidampr to cure the shudder. It worked on my car with just stage 2 tune when I had stock clutch. Disappeared once installed. It's not a cheap part however.
Also, do you have any further plans with the car power wise?
Mercdude, you could try a Fluidampr to cure the shudder. It worked on my car with just stage 2 tune when I had stock clutch. Disappeared once installed. It's not a cheap part however.
Also, do you have any further plans with the car power wise?
mercdude
Well-known member
I had toyed with the idea of a turbo upgrade and a intercooler but realistically probably not. True to their word, the full kerma tune is a significant upgrade and I think everything else will have diminishing returns.
I am however probably going to install a wave trac ls because with the 6 speed it’s very easy to light the tires in first and second and with rain it’s hard to balance traction at all. So I’m very open to suggestions on clutch and dmf options, I’m just not quite ready to tear it apart yet.
Oh and this is my dd that I use for long distance commuting - 90miles a day.
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I am however probably going to install a wave trac ls because with the 6 speed it’s very easy to light the tires in first and second and with rain it’s hard to balance traction at all. So I’m very open to suggestions on clutch and dmf options, I’m just not quite ready to tear it apart yet.
Oh and this is my dd that I use for long distance commuting - 90miles a day.
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mercdude
Well-known member
Huh... I’ve never heard of a fluidampr, can you describe and give links?
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FarmerboyTdi
Active member
I was wondering this as well. I understand the culprit (lugging in higher gears) but what is actually happening in the dmf that makes it shudder?
Last edited:
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
Here's the link for the Fluidampr;
https://fluidampr.com/how-a-fluidampr-works/?utm_term=fluidampr&utm_campaign=FD_Engine-Vibration_Jan2019&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_tgt=kwd-296819269120&hsa_grp=69403392612&hsa_src=g&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_mt=b&hsa_ver=3&hsa_ad=319761341219&hsa_acc=6571129234&hsa_kw=fluidampr&hsa_cam=1659550934&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4Lqf6ZLB4AIVCorICh0yVAwbEAAYASAAEgJCVfD_BwE
My take on the DMF is that it's s pair of spring loaded flywheels. The springs take out some of the diesel vibrations. It does work for
stock power applications.
After I upgraded my turbo and tune
on my now deceased Mk 6, it started to slip, particularly from low
revs, with WOT. Installed an SBC stage 2 End with SMF, this before Southbend came out with the spring loaded "silent clutch" plate.
It caused a lot of vibration through the drive train into the gearbox.
The "new and improved" six speed has cast steel synchros which are subject to fatigue. I didn't like the noise I was hearing, research
here on these forums and I found others with SMFs who were
losing their synchros. The installation of a Fluidampr helped
reduce the gear clatter.
On my 02J 5 speed the synchros are brass, not subject to the same
fatigue failure. I do have a Fluidampr on my current Mk4, I got
lucky and found one 1/2 price here on the forums. While not strictly
necessary for my 02J, it does reduce gear rattle, and smooths out the
power band. I also have an SBC2 End SMF on this car, pre spring loaded clutch plate. Any springs in the drive train/clutch path diminish response IMO. Depends how finicky a driver you are
essentially. If you're happy with a bit of mush in the power curve,
you're fine. Want a Buick, hey, go for it. Want instant "sportscar" response? Hmmm, don't know what's comparable these days, Porsche 911 perhaps?
You have to balance driveability vs comfort. The "what is handling" thread deals with suspension setups, the same can be said for engines/powertrains.
YMWV,
Your Mileage WILL Vary.
https://fluidampr.com/how-a-fluidampr-works/?utm_term=fluidampr&utm_campaign=FD_Engine-Vibration_Jan2019&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_tgt=kwd-296819269120&hsa_grp=69403392612&hsa_src=g&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_mt=b&hsa_ver=3&hsa_ad=319761341219&hsa_acc=6571129234&hsa_kw=fluidampr&hsa_cam=1659550934&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4Lqf6ZLB4AIVCorICh0yVAwbEAAYASAAEgJCVfD_BwE
My take on the DMF is that it's s pair of spring loaded flywheels. The springs take out some of the diesel vibrations. It does work for
stock power applications.
After I upgraded my turbo and tune
on my now deceased Mk 6, it started to slip, particularly from low
revs, with WOT. Installed an SBC stage 2 End with SMF, this before Southbend came out with the spring loaded "silent clutch" plate.
It caused a lot of vibration through the drive train into the gearbox.
The "new and improved" six speed has cast steel synchros which are subject to fatigue. I didn't like the noise I was hearing, research
here on these forums and I found others with SMFs who were
losing their synchros. The installation of a Fluidampr helped
reduce the gear clatter.
On my 02J 5 speed the synchros are brass, not subject to the same
fatigue failure. I do have a Fluidampr on my current Mk4, I got
lucky and found one 1/2 price here on the forums. While not strictly
necessary for my 02J, it does reduce gear rattle, and smooths out the
power band. I also have an SBC2 End SMF on this car, pre spring loaded clutch plate. Any springs in the drive train/clutch path diminish response IMO. Depends how finicky a driver you are
essentially. If you're happy with a bit of mush in the power curve,
you're fine. Want a Buick, hey, go for it. Want instant "sportscar" response? Hmmm, don't know what's comparable these days, Porsche 911 perhaps?
You have to balance driveability vs comfort. The "what is handling" thread deals with suspension setups, the same can be said for engines/powertrains.
YMWV,
Your Mileage WILL Vary.
What follows is a vast oversimplification. Fair warning
The purpose of DMF is to absorb/dampen torsional vibrations in the crankshaft. There are several sources of these vibrations. Can include a bad/weak CV joint or motor mount for example. But for purposes of this discussion, what we are going to call "shudder" is mainly the result of imbalances in the torque output between cylinders.
There are other "shudders" that are related to transitions between various preinjection states or regen, part/light throttle or other reasons like ABS or traction control, but the main concern here is the full throttle 1800-2000 rpm. Considerable effort has gone into ensuring that all the other "shudder" gremilns (that occur even in stock cars) are specifically addressed by and solved in the kerma tunes. But those are not the concern of this post.
For example, the "fix" cars will shudder worse than the "pre-fix" cars. The only change being a different ECU tune. That's because the "fix" cars, were reprogrammed to have less ability to compensate for these variations between cylinders. That is why the "fix" cars will tend to shudder more easily than the "pre-fix" cars. That's also why the ECU tune can be adjusted to allow a much higher torque threshold before the shudder happens. In fact, a much higher torque capacity can be realized than would otherwise be possible, by improving the ability of the ecu to adjust for imbalances between cylinders. Again, a vast oversimplification. This individual cylinder compensation is not on the radar of most tuners, as it is not an issue anywhere but in the USA- spec cars. But it does allow kerma CR tunes to achieve better results, that others will insist is "not possible".
Yes, it's easy to just keep the torque low, problem solved. But what fun is that?
Of course it's like anything else with cars. Some cars are more sensitive than others. Just like some ALH will slip the clutch with just a tune, and others won't. Tune can be adjusted to suit. Or the driver can just be aware to not matt the pedal at 1800 rpm/6th gear "drive around it".
With the 2015 cars, we send 2 tunes and the user can decide which one they prefer. The passats are most notable for this. (DSG tune largely takes care of it) Does not come up with the 2015 golfs/jettas as much.
With the Gen1, the shudder is usually not typically an issue, so when someone complains, we start looking at the mechanicals of the car first. This may not be what they want to hear, but after so many tunes out there, we know what to expect.
There's always the option to "adjust to suit", but that is not needed very often. There's a lot of time and effort that goes into development BEFORE the customer gets a tune, so they are vetted really well with months of in-house testing and living with it in the real world *before* release. And at this point there are a LOT of them out in the wild so there's a lot of customer experience as well. So if we make a recommendation of things to check, there's a pretty good chance that someone else has had the exact same problem that was fixed that way.
That said, I certainly don't know everything. Just give the guys a call they are always willing to listen. These ecu are very complex and we are constantly improving the product based on feedback.
The purpose of DMF is to absorb/dampen torsional vibrations in the crankshaft. There are several sources of these vibrations. Can include a bad/weak CV joint or motor mount for example. But for purposes of this discussion, what we are going to call "shudder" is mainly the result of imbalances in the torque output between cylinders.
There are other "shudders" that are related to transitions between various preinjection states or regen, part/light throttle or other reasons like ABS or traction control, but the main concern here is the full throttle 1800-2000 rpm. Considerable effort has gone into ensuring that all the other "shudder" gremilns (that occur even in stock cars) are specifically addressed by and solved in the kerma tunes. But those are not the concern of this post.
For example, the "fix" cars will shudder worse than the "pre-fix" cars. The only change being a different ECU tune. That's because the "fix" cars, were reprogrammed to have less ability to compensate for these variations between cylinders. That is why the "fix" cars will tend to shudder more easily than the "pre-fix" cars. That's also why the ECU tune can be adjusted to allow a much higher torque threshold before the shudder happens. In fact, a much higher torque capacity can be realized than would otherwise be possible, by improving the ability of the ecu to adjust for imbalances between cylinders. Again, a vast oversimplification. This individual cylinder compensation is not on the radar of most tuners, as it is not an issue anywhere but in the USA- spec cars. But it does allow kerma CR tunes to achieve better results, that others will insist is "not possible".
Yes, it's easy to just keep the torque low, problem solved. But what fun is that?
Of course it's like anything else with cars. Some cars are more sensitive than others. Just like some ALH will slip the clutch with just a tune, and others won't. Tune can be adjusted to suit. Or the driver can just be aware to not matt the pedal at 1800 rpm/6th gear "drive around it".
With the 2015 cars, we send 2 tunes and the user can decide which one they prefer. The passats are most notable for this. (DSG tune largely takes care of it) Does not come up with the 2015 golfs/jettas as much.
With the Gen1, the shudder is usually not typically an issue, so when someone complains, we start looking at the mechanicals of the car first. This may not be what they want to hear, but after so many tunes out there, we know what to expect.
There's always the option to "adjust to suit", but that is not needed very often. There's a lot of time and effort that goes into development BEFORE the customer gets a tune, so they are vetted really well with months of in-house testing and living with it in the real world *before* release. And at this point there are a LOT of them out in the wild so there's a lot of customer experience as well. So if we make a recommendation of things to check, there's a pretty good chance that someone else has had the exact same problem that was fixed that way.
That said, I certainly don't know everything. Just give the guys a call they are always willing to listen. These ecu are very complex and we are constantly improving the product based on feedback.
ToxicDoc
Veteran Member
I don't see them listing a balancer for the 1.9 TDI
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
Give Issam a call here: http://iabedindustries.com/
Used to be a vendor on this site.
I think the right one for the ALH is Fluidampr #551201
You just change the crankshaft/alternator pulley.
15 minute job on a lift.
mercdude
Well-known member
Fluidampr doesn’t list one for the cr tdi either....
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mercdude
Well-known member
You know tbh I’m not surprised there’s clutch/dmf issues with such an upgrade. It’s
not unexpected but a bit concerning when you’re apparently the first person to report these issues. It’s nice to know though that it’s not a unique situation albeit not a common issue either.
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Rrusse11
Veteran Member
From the Fluidampr site on torsional vibration;
https://fluidampr.com/what-is-torsional-vibration/
Do your homework folks, and start asking the people who know.
Had one on my Mk6, and now on my Mk4.
As Kerma points out, in spite of CNC machining, each car is unique.
You can get your individual car ECU tuned, but that brings to mind
the adage, when the tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
The DMF is VWs answer to the vibration issue, the crankshaft pulley is also rubber filled as an additional damper.
Race car engines are blueprinted and balanced, ie matched up as
best as possible. Customised and expensive. But read the various articles on the Fluidampr site, it gets complicated!
Being a driver, NOT a mechanic, NOT an engineer, I've dealt with
vibration issues as simply and directly as possible. Smooth out the
power curve on a motor that has HIGH compression, and the resultant forces that go with it. All I can offer is that according
to my butt dyno, Fluidamprs have made a difference, for the better.
Cheers!
https://fluidampr.com/what-is-torsional-vibration/
Do your homework folks, and start asking the people who know.
Had one on my Mk6, and now on my Mk4.
As Kerma points out, in spite of CNC machining, each car is unique.
You can get your individual car ECU tuned, but that brings to mind
the adage, when the tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
The DMF is VWs answer to the vibration issue, the crankshaft pulley is also rubber filled as an additional damper.
Race car engines are blueprinted and balanced, ie matched up as
best as possible. Customised and expensive. But read the various articles on the Fluidampr site, it gets complicated!
Being a driver, NOT a mechanic, NOT an engineer, I've dealt with
vibration issues as simply and directly as possible. Smooth out the
power curve on a motor that has HIGH compression, and the resultant forces that go with it. All I can offer is that according
to my butt dyno, Fluidamprs have made a difference, for the better.
Cheers!
Jetta_Pilot
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2005
- Location
- West Hill, Ont.
- TDI
- 2015 Passat Highline TDI Candy White (SEL Premium) long gone 2002 Jetta TDI
I have the Malone Stage 2 tune as well as the DSG tune and in my 2015 Passat there is nothing happening out of the ordinary.
iamatt
Veteran Member
I agree that no two cars are the same . I had two mk6 both with same tune and one would shudder and the other nothing, both within 5K miles of each other and the one that shuddered I drove new off the lot. The one that doesn't I picked up in a private sale and do not know the history. Everything seems tight on them and they roll the same.
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Rrusse11
Veteran Member
FWIW, look for an alternative to the fluidampr to appear, very soon.
Ahhh, please let us know. Enquiring minds would like to see an alternative.
Slurry Pumper
Veteran Member
When I did a Malone stage III tune on my 2010 TDI Sedan 6 spd, I immediately changed to a stage 2 endurance smf clutch from southbend, and within 10K miles, I lost the 2nd gear synchro and could only get into 1st when stopped. After rebuilding the gear box, it took about 20K miles before similar problems occurred. The 3rd time I rebuilt the gearbox, I upgraded to a better throw out bearing, and installed a fluid dampener. So now it has been about 65K miles and it all still works. Well if you consider it difficult to downshift into 1st gear as not a problem, which I don't. I have notice that in the 1 out of a 1000 shifts when I actually want to downshift into 1st, that this has been getting more and more difficult over time, but all other gears are fine. Realistically I rarely downshift into 1st because it is quite easy to almost be stopped and use 2nd gear with out any problems, but sometimes in heavy traffic, I will need to downshift into 1st. It still does it, but not as smoothly as I would like.
Fluid dampener has made all the difference I think, There used to be some nasty vibrations at around the 2100 RPM level in all gears, and now you can still feel the vibrations, but the severity is much less than before.
As far as being in 5th or 6th gear with vibrations at around 2000 rpms under heavy acceleration, I just avoid it. Usually, I would downshift into 4th to get the revs up to 2500 or so and hammer it from there until you hit 3000 to 4000 rpms before shifting back into 5th or 6th. I think that there is something to matching the power band with the acceleration desires.
Actually avoiding the 1900 to 2100 rpm level under acceleration is my goal for all gears if at all possible.
Fluid dampener has made all the difference I think, There used to be some nasty vibrations at around the 2100 RPM level in all gears, and now you can still feel the vibrations, but the severity is much less than before.
As far as being in 5th or 6th gear with vibrations at around 2000 rpms under heavy acceleration, I just avoid it. Usually, I would downshift into 4th to get the revs up to 2500 or so and hammer it from there until you hit 3000 to 4000 rpms before shifting back into 5th or 6th. I think that there is something to matching the power band with the acceleration desires.
Actually avoiding the 1900 to 2100 rpm level under acceleration is my goal for all gears if at all possible.
iamatt
Veteran Member
That sounds horrible to drive. Can't downshift, avoid rpm ranges but you like the tune lol .
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
@ SlurryPumper,
Thanks for the confirmation. I bought a Fluidampr fairly quickly after my SBC2End installation in my Mk6.
Double clutched 1st, which I do now on my Mk4. Same same approach to gearshifting in higher gears.
Drop it down a gear or 2 and start the "hammer" from the low/mid 2k rpms if you're seriously getting on it.
It's still a little 4 cylinder diesel, no matter what you think "it OUGHT to be able to do". Put it in the rev range
that it's comfortable, and they go great and rev quickly, this is where the 4 cyl really shines.
Sadly I got rear ended stopped in a construction zone after about 40k, but I had no gearbox problems in that period.
IMO, most people don't drive these engines very well. Power and
grunt they got , but they're NOT V8s. Get a 383 Chrysler hemi, and then pay for the gas.
My $.02
Thanks for the confirmation. I bought a Fluidampr fairly quickly after my SBC2End installation in my Mk6.
Double clutched 1st, which I do now on my Mk4. Same same approach to gearshifting in higher gears.
Drop it down a gear or 2 and start the "hammer" from the low/mid 2k rpms if you're seriously getting on it.
It's still a little 4 cylinder diesel, no matter what you think "it OUGHT to be able to do". Put it in the rev range
that it's comfortable, and they go great and rev quickly, this is where the 4 cyl really shines.
Sadly I got rear ended stopped in a construction zone after about 40k, but I had no gearbox problems in that period.
IMO, most people don't drive these engines very well. Power and
grunt they got , but they're NOT V8s. Get a 383 Chrysler hemi, and then pay for the gas.
My $.02
scrambld
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2004
- Location
- Belchertown, MA
- TDI
- '06 Jetta...TDI/5spd :) >>>now a '15 Passat TDI/DSG
Huh?
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
Huh?
The legendary V8 that was in the Dodge & Plymouth muscle cars in
the late 60s early 70s. Also standard issue for police and state troopers.
Great motor, it had a serious drinking problem but.
Slurry Pumper
Veteran Member
yeah you're right Rrusse11.
These are 4 cylinder cars after all, and the displacement just isn't there unlike a few other 4 cylinder vehicles. I got a stage III tune with the euro turbo; a few things deleted off the back end of the turbo; with no recirculation of exhaust gases going on here, and the car is just now up to standards as far as peppiness goes, but if you're trying to accelerate pass the bus in the left lane before the semi-trailer that is traveling at highway speeds gets there, I suggest you downshift and hammer the pedal if you want to pull off that move without a hospital stay.
These are 4 cylinder cars after all, and the displacement just isn't there unlike a few other 4 cylinder vehicles. I got a stage III tune with the euro turbo; a few things deleted off the back end of the turbo; with no recirculation of exhaust gases going on here, and the car is just now up to standards as far as peppiness goes, but if you're trying to accelerate pass the bus in the left lane before the semi-trailer that is traveling at highway speeds gets there, I suggest you downshift and hammer the pedal if you want to pull off that move without a hospital stay.
mercdude
Well-known member
Sounds like a good solution would be a better flywheel and harmonic balancer.
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Rrusse11
Veteran Member
Worked for me, but I took the payout money and bought a Mk4 ALH.
Better car. Not as fancy or refined, but IMO more durable and a LOT
cheaper to fix, and hell, so simple even I can work on it.
Lol, vintage, like me. {
)nothing to do with the tune it's the SMF that causes that.
ttcheung
Veteran Member
I have a Kerma tune on my otherwise stock 2011 JSW TDI 6MT powertrain. I have been using the tune since 2016, and have went through tune iterations with Kerma after the DieselGate emissions recall. I installed the tune at about 145k miles, and currently have 178k on the odo.
I first noticed the clutch / DMF shudder and reduced acceleration when on 4th and flooring it; I would not experience this with the stock tune. After reading that the stock clutch was rated for +/- 258lb-ft torque, it basically made sense: the clutch just wasn't able to take the advertised 340lb-ft.
I do know that repeated clutch shudders will definitely put enough shock / impulse to ruining the flywheel; those springs can only take so much. I have since learned to keep the heavy foot only on the lower gears. My plan, when the stock clutch gives out, is to look into the Southbend upgraded SMF / clutch kits and some sort of LSD.
I first noticed the clutch / DMF shudder and reduced acceleration when on 4th and flooring it; I would not experience this with the stock tune. After reading that the stock clutch was rated for +/- 258lb-ft torque, it basically made sense: the clutch just wasn't able to take the advertised 340lb-ft.
I do know that repeated clutch shudders will definitely put enough shock / impulse to ruining the flywheel; those springs can only take so much. I have since learned to keep the heavy foot only on the lower gears. My plan, when the stock clutch gives out, is to look into the Southbend upgraded SMF / clutch kits and some sort of LSD.
mercdude
Well-known member
theuprightbass
Active member
I have a 2011 Golf with a Kerma tune and recently installed a SMF setup from DKM. The only difference I’ve seen with the SMF is more gearbox chatter at idle. I’ve read that it could affect the 1st-3rd gear synchros but it’s only been second hand, anecdotal information. I highly recommend DieselGeeks short throw shifter as well.
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adjat84th
Veteran Member
That gearbox chatter IS your synchros rattling back and forth. Depending on when exactly VW changed from brass to steel in the 02Q is the important question. '09 02Qs have seen brass, but who knows when exactly they changed over. Only way to know for sure would be to look up parts per your VIN and see what they come up. Brass will take the beating all day long, steel not so much. There are more folks with failures of steel synchros (myself included) than successes with steel synchros.