Fuel additive OK with 2012 TDI?

JSWTDI09

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You will find a lot of disagreement here about this one. Most good (modern) additives are safe to use in a new TDI. Whether they are necessary is a source of much discussion. A small sample below:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=19111
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=339991
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=341890
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=332719
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=333741
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=350237

Have fun reading!

Don

P.S. The additive you mentioned says nothing about adding lubricity. For new Common Rail diesels, this might be the most important thing to look for in an additive. Modern ULSD has much lower (poorer) lubricating ability than old diesel fuel.
 
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Hyates

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Awesome! Thanks for the links. It's a bit overwhelming catching up to the new standards for this engine.

Further down the page on the link I posted has more detailed information. This product lubricates as well:

"Lubricates and protects the entire fuel system preventing pump and injector failure."

H.
 
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jgeorge

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Hyates- I uses the lubecorp premium diesel plus as well in my 03 golf and my wifes 2010 A3. Lubecorp does specify its ashless- No issues with her DPF system- It's my favorite additive- Do you have it shipped from Calgary or can you buy it locally. I have to have it shipped as there are no dealers in eastern Canada.
 

Hyates

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You can buy it in the Metro Vancouver area, but its hard to find. I get my brother-in-law to buy me a couple cases at a time from their plant in Calgary, and we usually meet up in the BC interior, so free shipping and no provincial taxes :)

Lubecorp makes a good product. Thanks for the confirmation.

H.
 

jgeorge

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Check out BNAC environmental- they're in the Vancouver area- Coquittlam BC. Its where i origanally ordered from, and its cheaper than if you order from lubecorp. When i drive out to Vancouver this summer i'm stopping there to pick up a case.
 
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houstonmacbro

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You will find a lot of disagreement here about this one. Most good (modern) additives are safe to use in a new TDI. Whether they are necessary is a source of much discussion. A small sample below:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=19111
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=339991
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=341890
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=332719
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=333741
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=350237

Have fun reading!

Don

P.S. The additive you mentioned says nothing about adding lubricity. For new Common Rail diesels, this might be the most important thing to look for in an additive. Modern ULSD has much lower (poorer) lubricating ability than old diesel fuel.
I think this is the most disturbing part ... there doesn't seem to be any consensus here on using additives, and I have never heard anything from VW on the matter.
 

wensteph

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I think it's less an issue with the higher quality Canada diesel. With low quality US diesel an additive is necessary, less for lubricity ability and more for combustion chamber and injector cleaning, IMO. Additive packages are added at the rack prior to delivery to the station so the question is the amount and quality of the additive.
 

vdubtdi11

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I think it's less an issue with the higher quality Canada diesel. With low quality US diesel an additive is necessary, less for lubricity ability and more for combustion chamber and injector cleaning, IMO. Additive packages are added at the rack prior to delivery to the station so the question is the amount and quality of the additive.
I agree about there being a lack of a general agreement and the fact that VW doesn't require additives may be because of there now being free maintenance for three years. If I remember correctly, VW used to recommend and use an additive in scheduled maintenance and that ended after the introduction of the included service program. They offer it for sale, but no longer do they use it even in servicing of TDIs. Cutting costs, or is it unnecessary?

Wensteph, how often do you think using a product like Stanadyne would be necessary should one choose to jump on the additive bandwagon? Every fill up or once in 1,000 miles for a good injector cleaning?:)
 
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T_D_I_POWER

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Here's the assurance from Stanadyne the leader in Diesel fuel addtives



Stanadyne said:
Q Are Stanadyne diesel fuel additives compatible with high pressure common rail fuel systems and will they harm exhaust aftertreatment systems?

A Stanadyne diesel fuel additives are compatible with all types of fuel systems and will not harm aftertreatment systems.
Aftermarket treatment systems = DPF
 

JSWTDI09

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... and I have never heard anything from VW on the matter.
... and the fact that VW doesn't require additives may be because of there now being free maintenance for three years. If I remember correctly, VW used to recommend and use an additive in scheduled maintenance and that ended after the introduction of the included service program. They offer it for sale, but no longer do they use it even in servicing of TDIs. Cutting costs, or is it unnecessary?

VW does not recommend additives mainly for legal reasons.
1) They do not want to imply that additives are necessary as this would amount to admitting that they have a problem with US fuel.
2) They do not want to recommend any specific additive, because no additive company wants to pay them to recommend it. Also, they do not want to have to test all available additives to see which ones to recommend. VW does (or did) sell Stanadyne additives, but I suspect that they had a deal with Stanadyne to do so.

If VW actually recommended additives, they would have to test it and make sure that it was both safe and effective. There is no advantage to VW to spend this kind of money and effort for the reasons stated above.

As I see it, the problem with US diesel fuel is the inconsistency of the additive packages added by different retailers (the basic "raw" D2 is usually pretty much the same everywhere). Various tests of retail D2 have shown HFRR wear scars ranging everywhere from the 300s (excellent) to over 700 (terrible). Bosch (the makers of our HPFPs) says that wear scars over 460 will cause excessive wear and earlier failures to their pumps. Whether or not you add a lubricity additive depends on how much you trust the retailers from whom you buy your fuel. Only you can decide about this. There is no agreement about additive use, just as there is no agreement about brands of coffee, or political parties. This is a (more or less) free country and everyone must choose for themselves. All we can do here is to try to make sure that people are well informed about the choices they have.

Have Fun!

Don
 

Tin Man

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VW does not recommend additives mainly for legal reasons.
1) They do not want to imply that additives are necessary as this would amount to admitting that they have a problem with US fuel.
2) They do not want to recommend any specific additive, because no additive company wants to pay them to recommend it. Also, they do not want to have to test all available additives to see which ones to recommend. VW does (or did) sell Stanadyne additives, but I suspect that they had a deal with Stanadyne to do so.

If VW actually recommended additives, they would have to test it and make sure that it was both safe and effective. There is no advantage to VW to spend this kind of money and effort for the reasons stated above.

As I see it, the problem with US diesel fuel is the inconsistency of the additive packages added by different retailers (the basic "raw" D2 is usually pretty much the same everywhere). Various tests of retail D2 have shown HFRR wear scars ranging everywhere from the 300s (excellent) to over 700 (terrible). Bosch (the makers of our HPFPs) says that wear scars over 460 will cause excessive wear and earlier failures to their pumps. Whether or not you add a lubricity additive depends on how much you trust the retailers from whom you buy your fuel. Only you can decide about this. There is no agreement about additive use, just as there is no agreement about brands of coffee, or political parties. This is a (more or less) free country and everyone must choose for themselves. All we can do here is to try to make sure that people are well informed about the choices they have.

Have Fun!

Don
No.

There is not one credible piece of data, not one scientific study, not one controlled double-blind fact filled article that any additive manufacturer has ever produced that shows there is any advantage to using additives for engines with no problems whatsoever.

Every single engine manufacturer has stated for all to see plainly and in print that additives to both fuel and oil are not recommended except in special circumstances.

The fact remains that all diesel fuel is not born the same from the distillery and the brand name producers tailor their additives to the base fuel to adhere to ULSD standards. There is no guarantee that using an additive does not upset this chemistry to make it worse, nor is there ever any mention of adverse side effects of any additive on the market.

Its all for the sale folks. The onus should be on the additive manufacturer and there has never been any legitimate proof that their products are needed when there is no problem with the fuel or engine to begin with. Ever.

TM
 

tdiatlast

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TinMan: You are entitled to your own set of facts. That's the beauty of this country.

Casual reader/newbees...Do your own research here. There always will be misinformed posts.

Keep in mind: The requirements of a 09>>>CR TDI fuel system are dramatically different than previous generation TDIs, especially lubricity requirements. This thread is about a 2012 CR TDI.
 

raitchison

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Tin Man I don't think it's exactly the same thing for a manufacturer to not "recommend" you use an additive as to say that using an additive is "not recommended". One says that it's unnecessary and the other says it's harmful.

You say there are no double blind studies indicating that additives are beneficial but one could counter that by saying there isn't any evidence that they are harmful either.

One thing that's important to me, it is an incontrovertible fact that diesel fuel standards, specifically in terms of lubricity and cetane are considerably lower in the U.S. than in Europe (the market our cars were designed for).

As for VW and other manufacturers not "recommending" an additive, you have to ask yourself if you think the lawyers and bean counters at VW would make a decision that would lower their liability if the consequence of that decision would be a slight increase in failures, especially if most of those failures would occur after the expiration of the warranty?

If VW recommended an additive, they are essentially saying that they are selling a car in the U.S. that's not suitable for U.S. spec fuel, this opens them up to tremendous amounts of potential liability including super expensive class action lawsuits. Anyone with a fuel system failure could sue VW and use the additive "recommendation" as evidence that VW knew their cars weren't up to snuff.

Also if VW wanted to recommend an additive, they would need to recommend a specific additives if not multiple ones (otherwise people would be putting snake oil in their cars), which would mean they would have to spend money testing and certifying those additives and for what benefit (how does that help VW the company?)

You can be sure that VW will look out for their own interests even if it harms their customers over the long term.

I will agree that we as owners assume some risk when we put an additive in our tanks, but IMO we need to ask ourselves if that risk is enough to offset the reduced risk that we will have a fuel system failure because we use an additive. For me that answer is not even close.
 

joeelmex

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I have been putting XPD on 2 2012 Jetta's when they only had 1k miles on them. I will keep you post it how things go. So far so good and I notice the difference right away after using XPD.
 

Lightflyer1

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One thing that's important to me, it is an incontrovertible fact that diesel fuel standards, specifically in terms of lubricity and cetane are considerably lower in the U.S. than in Europe (the market our cars were designed for).

I will agree that we as owners assume some risk when we put an additive in our tanks, but IMO we need to ask ourselves if that risk is enough to offset the reduced risk that we will have a fuel system failure because we use an additive. For me that answer is not even close.
The standards are lower but in reality the fuel here is very much above the minimum. Texas has done some fuel testing and on the face of it our D2 is pretty darn good down here. But hard to know exactly what is coming out of the pump at any given time and place anywhere.

There is also no proof that using an additive will stop a fuel system failure. The failure mode isn't really known as yet so adding an additive may just do nothing as low lubricity may not be the (only) cause here. IIRC some using additives have had fuel system failures.

The best any one can do is be informed and make your own decision what you want to do.
 
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Tin Man

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Does anyone really believe that if there was any credible information out there that the additive companies wouldn't have it in their advertising front and center?

A fool and their money are soon departed.

TM
 

WutGas?

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So are you saying that the additives will hurt the CR, or that lubricity is no matter to the CR?
 

Tin Man

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So are you saying that the additives will hurt the CR, or that lubricity is no matter to the CR?
There is every reason to believe that you may be hurting as much as helping. No data.

The best option is to use a reputable brand and fuel station. Fresh diesel. Use the money on good preventive maintenance. Leave the additive chemistry to the professionals at the oil companies. They really do know what they are doing. I've met a couple.

And yes, you do get more uniform quality with the newest ULSD regulations. Designing a fuel pump for this standard is not rocket science. Its not surprising that Bosch may want to save money and get more lubricity out of the standard so that they can put less money into engineering a proper fuel pump.

Yes, dear reader, ULSD is still a lubricant compared to gasoline. The direct injection gasoline fuel pump BMW 335i had trouble, not the 335d one....

TM
 

WutGas?

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There is every reason to believe that you may be hurting as much as helping. No data.

The best option is to use a reputable brand and fuel station. Fresh diesel. Use the money on good preventive maintenance. Leave the additive chemistry to the professionals at the oil companies. They really do know what they are doing. I've met a couple.

And yes, you do get more uniform quality with the newest ULSD regulations. Designing a fuel pump for this standard is not rocket science. Its not surprising that Bosch may want to save money and get more lubricity out of the standard so that they can put less money into engineering a proper fuel pump.

Yes, dear reader, ULSD is still a lubricant compared to gasoline. The direct injection gasoline fuel pump BMW 335i had trouble, not the 335d one....

TM
So, the fact that the US has lower federal standards on diesel fuel compared to Europe (where HPFP failures do not seem to be as common) doesn't have anything to do with our fuel?

Also, since Opti-Lube (using them since I use them) uses Lubrizol additives to make up their formula, and Lubrizol is what is added to a lot of the retail fuel, how could that hurt the fuel system?
 

Lightflyer1

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The cause of hpfp failures is not known. Some think it is due to lower lubricity fuel. How do you prevent something you don't know the cause of? Just because a little is good doesn't mean a lot is better necessarily. I take a Valium sometimes at night for back pain. I probably don't want to take 20 of them though.
 

WutGas?

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You're right. It is not known. However, if the only thing being different is the diesel (from one country to the next), and adding an additive to the US diesel gets you a little bit closer to Euro spec....why not?

How does Europe get their diesel to their specifications? Raw diesel plus additives, right?

I'm not saying it helps. I'm asking how it could hurt.
 

DubFamily

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There is every reason to believe that you may be hurting as much as helping. No data.
Flatly untrue.

Every additive on the market has a data sheet that tells you exactly what is in it. The primary components of every one of the "main" additives are identical to the additives that are already being put in the diesel from the oil companies. All the data you could possibly want is available for the searching.

How do you think Europe reaches its better standards of diesel quality? Through better base oils? No, through additives. The US requires lower standards than Europe, so companies put less additive in the diesel to meet the lower standard.

As you said, it is not "rocket science"...
 
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tditom

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... The direct injection gasoline fuel pump BMW 335i had trouble, not the 335d one....
TM
And there is reason why. Please see this thread on a BMW tech training document at bimmerfest. This info is on page 56:
The high pressure fuel system is mostly identical in design and
function as compared to the European version. However, some
components have been adapted to the different fuel specification
.
These components are:
• High-pressure pump
• Fuel rail
• Fuel injectors.
These adaptations are restricted to different coatings and materials
on the inside
.
The obvious reasons for this special internal coating is the lower lubricity standard for US fuel.

Since the VW diesel HPFP are failing, one theory is the substandard lubricity. I have previously shared test results from Power Service and Tin Man pooh-poohed those as well, so I don't expect any different here, but there are results of additive benefit for lubricity available to us on this forum.

I realize that lubricity is only one factor, but I think it is wise for all US diesel operators to use a proven lubricity additive- especially VW TDI CR owners.
 

raitchison

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There is every reason to believe that you may be hurting as much as helping. No data.
To borrow from an entirely different religious debate (the one about religion) "an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

In any case, there is an enormous amount of anecdotal and more than a little empirical evidence that the major additives (e.g. Power Service or Stanadyne) are not in any way harmful, they are at the absolute worst a waste of money and at best cheap insurance against a premature fuel system failure.
 

tikal

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Agree with the posters above: no data showing that the major diesel additives are harmful to our TDIs.

Conclusion: inexpensive insurance in most scenarios in the US.
 

Lightflyer1

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It isn't insurance against anything. They probably do what they says it does, but it doesn't say it stops fuel system failures. Until there is some data that shows what caused the hpfp and fuel systems to fail, it is just a guess that these will have any effect on them at all. Some believe and hope it will help and others not so much. If you think some cetane improver and a lubricity bump will help, use some. If not, don't.
 

Tin Man

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How does Europe get their diesel to their specifications? Raw diesel plus additives, right?
You really don't know the difference, do you. Look it up.

So, if you can't disprove something it must be true. Good logic.:rolleyes:

TM
 

Tin Man

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To borrow from an entirely different religious debate (the one about religion) "an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

In any case, there is an enormous amount of anecdotal and more than a little empirical evidence that the major additives (e.g. Power Service or Stanadyne) are not in any way harmful, they are at the absolute worst a waste of money and at best cheap insurance against a premature fuel system failure.
This is completely false. Not one anecdote even looks for causes of diesel engine failure from additives. Look up the stories about clogged exhaust manifolds, ruined fuel pumps, blown turbo's, even rotting radiators (from watter wetters) - no-one asks about additive use!

We all really do live in our own fantasy world and try to support it with what data we find and ignore what data that might disagree with us. Its human to do this. Psychology 101.

There is a difference with gassers - low detergent in regular unleaded does cause accumulation of exhaust valve buildup and clogged fuel injectors. There are rules about premium gas having more than enough additive to combat this, but using a fuel additive like Chevron Techron doesn't always jive with rival detergent additives. Better use brand name top tier gas for best effect WITHOUT AFTERMARKET FUEL ADDITIVES. So you see, I'm not generally against additives when there is evidence to support them.

TM
 
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