Blueprint for 150MPG+ TDI

Nicozoom

banned, spammer
Joined
May 26, 2012
Location
Portland Oregon
TDI
2010 Jetta
Ok this is how you do it! But keep in mind this is extreme very extreme but this is the only way I know of to do it and still be able to drive normally meaning without utilizing hypermiling strategies.

#1. Go to the salvage yard and find a 2010 Jetta or Golf MK6 140HP model with 6spd manual transmission. Why because they are the most efficient diesel engine VW has to offer here in the states.
#2. Throw away the Chassis and body
#3. Build new chassis and body outta honeycomb core and wrap with Kevlar/carbon composites.
#4. Attach foam to chassis and shape for good aerodynamics then cover with composite kevlar/carbon or E-glass both will work!
#5. remove one back wheel and modify rear suspension for single rear wheel platform.
#6. LRR wheels many options goal is less than 18lbs per wheel pretty easy to find!
#7. Light rims Enkei are good choice around 15lbs
#8. Tune engine and add water/methanol injection Snow Performance has TDI MPG-Max which would be a good choice
#9. Add adjustable air suspension to reduce vehicle height and reduce suspension weight on the fly
#10. Add carbon fiber front sway bar fully adjustable

At this point total vehicle weight should be around 1000lbs or less and engine should be around 180-200HP and 300ft/lbs TQ. You know have a vehicle that has a power to weight ration of low end 1000/180 = 5.5HP per pound and high end 1000/200 = 5

#11. Add AC 60HP/110TQ electric motor and system to rear wheel with direct drive!
#12. Add mode control module to control 3 mode hybrid drive

Now we should be sitting at around 250HP and 400TQ with a curb weight of 1100lbs.

New power to weight ratio would be 1,100/250 = 4.4 not bad :)

Now with this set up you would easily be able to break 150MPG! and most likely break a 4sec 0-60 time as well!!!

How many vehicles can do that 0-60 in under 4sec and 150mpg or more none that I know of...

But that is how you would do it if you wanted to do it in a nutshell the key is reducing weight and the one place where you will get the greatest return on your time and money is the chassis and body! We can increase engine efficiency only so much with current technology the limiting factors are curb weight - drag - inertia limit them at all costs boost power and efficiency within limits to the ICE and add AC electric drive to a single rear wheel and incredible efficiency is yours!

Its all ready been done with a VW TDI = XL1 and it claims 313mpg with a 1,750lbs curb weight running .8L 2 cylinder TDI with 7spd DSG and a 27hp electric motor. Total Torque = 163lb-Ft

There are plans on the Internet available that you can purchase for less than $100.00 that will give you the knowledge and foundation to do this if you really want to do it. I have found 3 in fact 1 of them is very similar to the XL1. I almost wondered if the VW engineers bought the plans and copied it with only little updating.

So we can model our vehicle in much of the same way as the XL1 except get rid of one rear wheel and use lighter stronger materials for the chassis and body! Use all off the shelf components readily available.

Should be able to build for 12-15K depending on how much work you do yourself and how resourceful you are at getting a solid Jetta MK6 front clip platform on the cheap! It is possible to get an entire salvaged VW Jetta 2010 and up for less than 2K with less than 15K miles if you are patient.

I am not sure why i just shared all of that info maybe cuz i am sick of the gas prices or car manufacturers building these concept vehicles but never bringing them to market. What ever the reason is you can build a vehicle like this and have both incredible efficiency and performance for a mere fraction of the cost like me!!!
 

MikeMars

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Location
UK
TDI
Vento 1.9 TDi (retired), A4 1.9 TDi (rear end collision), VW Passat 1.9 TDi (retired), Audi A2 1.4 TDi
I'm concerned that the engine you have picked is too big & too heavy for the requirements. It only needs to produce a few HP if the vehicle is both light & streamlined. I would suggest getting a 1.2L TDI from europe instead (that's the smallest one in common production I think?). The 1.2 is still too big but probably the best available.

If you use a 200hp engine, then the running gear etc needs to be strong enough to cope with that (adding weight).
 

an60an

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Location
SLC/Utah
TDI
2002 Golf TDI 5 speed 2003 Golf TDI 5 speed
After you do all the crap from point #1 to #12 I would like to see the Insurance company that would insure you new car and Test station that would give you the stickers for the year ahead....
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 1998
Location
Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
TDI
idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
....this is the only way I know of to do it ....

#9. Add adjustable air suspension to .... reduce suspension weight on the fly
#10. Add carbon fiber front sway bar fully adjustable

At this point total vehicle weight should be around 1000lbs or less and engine should be around 180-200HP and 300ft/lbs TQ. You know have a vehicle that has a power to weight ration of low end 1000/180 = 5.5HP per pound and high end 1000/200 = 5

#11. Add AC 60HP/110TQ electric motor and system to rear wheel with direct drive!
#12. Add mode control module to control 3 mode hybrid drive

Now we should be sitting at around 250HP and 400TQ with a curb weight of 1100lbs.

New power to weight ratio would be 1,100/250 = 4.4 not bad :)


There are plans on the Internet available that you can purchase for less than $100.00 that will give you the knowledge and foundation to do this if you really want to do it.

I am not sure why i just shared all of that info maybe cuz i am sick....
I think you need to spend the $100 bucks to gain some knowledge.
How does an adjustable suspension reduce suspension weight?
How does an anti roll bar on a three wheel vehicle help? (the single rear has NO roll resistance, so the front already has more resistance than the rear).
Adding power or torque figures to pretend that the sum of them is the new peak is idiocy. The ICE has a peak as some speed (road or rpm). Unless the electric assist also produces it's peak at the same road speed the two don't add up.
How large are the batteries to drive the DC-AC 3 phase inverter? Where do you propose hanging all this? The engine is up front, so you'll do what? hang the batteries off to one side of the single rear and the inverter and controllers off the other side? Yeah! That will do wonders.

Go lie down until you feel better and are less delusional.
Then learn to drive more economically.
50 mpg on $3 fuel is 6 cents/mile
150 (har-har) on $3 fuel is 2 cents/mile.
$12k in build cost will require 300,000 miles to break even.

I think I can understand the tag line under the sceen name.
 

Padrino

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Location
Western US
TDI
2002 / Golf 1.9 TDI 5-speed
This is the biggest pile of $h1t I have came across lately. As "Lug Nut" already mentioned, you need some time away and some strong pills to try and regain your senses.
 

cparagone

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Location
amston, ct
TDI
2005.5 jetta 2002 Golf GLS
even if this franken car was possible to build and register and insure $0.04 a mile saving doesn't seem worth it

50 mpg on $3 fuel is 6 cents/mile
150 (har-har) on $3 fuel is 2 cents/mile.
$12k in build cost will require 300,000 miles to break even.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
150 mpg is actually a rather hard target to hit, and I don't think that way will do it. (But, the OP is banned, so...)

Most stuff that breaks it and has reasonable performance (I mean, able to reach freeway speed limits on level ground, and maintain them up hills) isn't FWD or FWD-based (at least for internal combustion - electric can be compact enough to not cause problems here), and doesn't have side-by-side seating. The XL1 is mid-engine RWD, but it has side-by-side seating. That 313 mpg figure is #1 in imperial gallons (it's 261 miles per US gallon), #2 not including energy used by the electric motor (extrapolating from VW's range figures, it's 121 miles per US gallon on a flat battery), #3 it's on the NEDC, which is somewhat optimistic, even on diesels.

The reason for not using FWD drivelines is, putting them in the front hurts aerodynamics, because the front seat occupants are pushed back in the chassis, requiring that the roof apex be moved back from optimal, to instead get optimal headroom. Putting them in the rear requires two rear wheels, which usually means a wide wheel track, usually requiring a wide rear body or exposed suspension (although Edison2 has a fix for that), either of which hurts aerodynamics. And, that also requires four wheels for stability, meaning it's a car, not a motorcycle, legally, and is much harder to get certified. Also, the FWD driveline itself is quite wide (unless you use a longi driveline, which makes the length issues even worse), meaning your vehicle is as wide as a side-by-side layout.

Oh, and not too big of an engine. Weight is your enemy in the city, drag is your enemy on the highway, and mechanical friction and pumping losses are your enemy everywhere. The less engine you can get away with, the better (although lower RPM can make up for larger displacement, by reducing friction and pumping losses, although not weight).

So, the formula to break 150 mpg with a diesel, without hypermiling...

Tandem seating
Mid-mounted diesel engine driving the rear wheel(s) (one rear wheel preferred for legal reasons, although two could be done well as well) ideally through a constant mesh transmission with friction clutch (either manual or automated), but a CVT of some sort will do as well (especially if it's the Toyota Power Split Device)
If hybridized, optionally electric motors driving the front wheels
Steel frame with plastic or fiberglass bodywork will do
Small engine - as small as you can go, really, while still being big enough and capable of high enough RPM to make boost with a turbo (go too small, and you won't be able to make boost, meaning you're down in the 15-20 hp area at best. The engine really needs to be able to make more than 20 hp NA, then it makes sense to turbo it, so you're probably looking at about 600-700 cc minimum. IDI can give you enough power NA, but with an efficiency loss. Then again, IDI could probably give you enough power down at 500 cc.)
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
BMW i8 - Google it.

Doesn't use a diesel engine but there's no reason that it couldn't be.

It's going into production.

BUT ... we don't yet know what the price tag is going to be.

I like it a lot, but I have a funny feeling that I won't like the price tag.
 

Tom W.

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2005
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
mash-up GettaTDI150, 1986 Jetta Delux D, 2005 Passat TDI sedan
Well, it's all been done before, with technology that is 30 years old -or older.

Ford probe 5 , with it's .137cd
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/LotDetailsPrintable.aspx?intObjectID=3942143-

TDI engine made/sold by Elsbett (that already gets around 100mpg in a Mercedes chasis) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elsbett

Hydraulic regenerative braking system (90% efficient vs electric @40%) http://www.hybridcars.com/related-technologies/hydraulic-hybrids.html

Easy- peasy to hit 150mpg! Plus it looks sexy, and seats 4-5 adults.
 

FordGuy100

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Location
Silverton, OR
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI
I always wondered why they have not come out with a diesel-electric system like they use on locomotives. Perhaps it wouldnt be as efficient (it certainly would add weight), but I would think it would help, especially at lower speeds (where it takes less hp to accelerate/maintain speed.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
The big thing with diesels is, they have lots of low-end torque, and they're very efficient over a wide range of RPMs and loading. (Gassers tend to need to be at as low RPMs as they can be, and as close to WOT as they can be, but not running in an enriched mode, to be efficient.)

Hybrids of all sorts have three benefits:

1. Tons of low-end torque, which can complement the Atkinson-cycle gasoline engine (which has less pumping losses than an Otto-cycle engine) nicely. This is irrelevant to a diesel.
2. Makes the Toyota Power Split Device possible, which is the best CVT out there as far as efficiency and durability IIRC. This is relevant to a diesel only when you want to ride the horsepower peak for maximum acceleration - riding the efficiency peak isn't that important.
3. Allows for regenerative braking. That's actually not THAT big of a deal on anything, but every little bit helps.

The main reason why locomotives use diesel-electric systems is because it's far lighter than the kind of clutch and gearing that they'd need to get a train rolling and keep it moving. Basically, it acts as a sort of (inefficient) CVT, with nothing to wear. And, it gives an effective braking system that doesn't mechanically wear out (although they're not doing true regen, as they're just dumping the energy into a resistor bank).
 

Padrino

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Location
Western US
TDI
2002 / Golf 1.9 TDI 5-speed
I always wondered why they have not come out with a diesel-electric system like they use on locomotives. Perhaps it wouldnt be as efficient (it certainly would add weight), but I would think it would help, especially at lower speeds (where it takes less hp to accelerate/maintain speed.
They already do...but not here. Back in Europe you could buy numbers of Peugeot and Citroen cars with Diesel Hybrid. The Peugeot 3008 is returning 74MPG Imperial this is 61MPG US.

 

an60an

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Location
SLC/Utah
TDI
2002 Golf TDI 5 speed 2003 Golf TDI 5 speed
BMW i8 - Google it.

Doesn't use a diesel engine but there's no reason that it couldn't be.

It's going into production.

BUT ... we don't yet know what the price tag is going to be.

I like it a lot, but I have a funny feeling that I won't like the price tag.
Your question answered :D
"The new 2014 BMW i8 should be in showrooms in the fall of 2013. It may cost between $350,000 and $400,000."

http://www.ubur2.com/2014-bmw-i8-review-specs-price-release-date
 

Masonjar

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2012
Location
Ottawa
TDI
2005 Jetta Wagon GL
There are two types of diesel electric used in locomotives. The "traditional" set-up, as described above ^^^, and a "newer" technology that uses a much smaller diesel generator that runs constantly, always charging a large bank of batteries. The electric traction motors draw from the bank of batteries as needed, rather than having a much larger generator spool up to meet demand as required. This is the "green goat" approach that has been talked about for yard switchers for a few years now.

It sounds similar to what the Prius and other hybrids now do with the power generated by braking being stored to for future use from the battery bank, rather than just being dumped as heat loss.

Andrew
 

steffen707

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2005
Location
Central Wisconsin
TDI
01 Jetta GLS TDI
BMW i8 - Google it.

Doesn't use a diesel engine but there's no reason that it couldn't be.

It's going into production.

BUT ... we don't yet know what the price tag is going to be.

I like it a lot, but I have a funny feeling that I won't like the price tag.
Or VW XL1, 313mpg
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufacturers/volkswagen/8293372/Volkswagen-XL1-review.html

Just because the guy is a dreamer doesn't mean that his ideas couldn't be put to fruition with a TON OF MONEY. I don't know why he was banned, but whatever. Sometimes its fun to dream, I usually do it thinking about winning the lottery, not how i'm going to waste my lottery winnings on fuel economy. :)
 

steffen707

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2005
Location
Central Wisconsin
TDI
01 Jetta GLS TDI
I always wondered why they have not come out with a diesel-electric system like they use on locomotives. Perhaps it wouldnt be as efficient (it certainly would add weight), but I would think it would help, especially at lower speeds (where it takes less hp to accelerate/maintain speed.
I've heard on other forums that diesel/hybrids are coming, and are better than gas hybrids, but they're more expensive. Gas engines are cheaper to make than diesel, so add on the cost of the hybrid setup, plus the increase in diesel engine, and its like a doubly expensive hybrid.

EDIT:
I stand corrected, guess some manufacturers already have them, i bet they're expensive though. Also i think many americans still have the thought that diesel is bad and pollutes more than gasoline.
 
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MikeMars

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Location
UK
TDI
Vento 1.9 TDi (retired), A4 1.9 TDi (rear end collision), VW Passat 1.9 TDi (retired), Audi A2 1.4 TDi
...
I don't know why he was banned, but whatever. ...
I suspect it was to do with trying to sell $100 blueprints of the plans off the forum. But that's just speculation since I'm not a mod thankfully :)
 

Padrino

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Location
Western US
TDI
2002 / Golf 1.9 TDI 5-speed
EDIT:
I stand corrected, guess some manufacturers already have them, i bet they're expensive though. Also i think many americans still have the thought that diesel is bad and pollutes more than gasoline.
Well they are not that much more expensive than the rest.
The example I've given earlier for Peugeot 3008 in the UK they don't seems to have that much of a difference, yes they are the most expensive on the line but not that much:

http://www.whatcar.com/car-reviews/peugeot/3008-crossover/versions/25890-7

Don't look the prices as exchange rates, think them as $1.00 = £1.00
What you could buy for a $1000.00 bucks here, you could get in the UK for a £1000.00.

Bottom line: New Diesel/Hybrid car that returns 61MPG US for under $30 000 is a bargain in my book :D
 

FordGuy100

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Location
Silverton, OR
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI
There are two types of diesel electric used in locomotives. The "traditional" set-up, as described above ^^^, and a "newer" technology that uses a much smaller diesel generator that runs constantly, always charging a large bank of batteries. The electric traction motors draw from the bank of batteries as needed, rather than having a much larger generator spool up to meet demand as required. This is the "green goat" approach that has been talked about for yard switchers for a few years now.

It sounds similar to what the Prius and other hybrids now do with the power generated by braking being stored to for future use from the battery bank, rather than just being dumped as heat loss.

Andrew
The second setup you are refering to is more of what I was thinking. The only drawback I can see is long drives with many hills (think driving through the rockies). You would eventually draw down the batteries and then you would be stuck at the HP the small diesel engine made at peak, minus the efficiency loss to the electric motors.
 

MikeMars

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Location
UK
TDI
Vento 1.9 TDi (retired), A4 1.9 TDi (rear end collision), VW Passat 1.9 TDi (retired), Audi A2 1.4 TDi
...
Bottom line: New Diesel/Hybrid car that returns 61MPG US for under $30 000 is a bargain in my book :D

Hmm, I don't know. I was expecting it to be much better. There are loads of non-hybrid diesel cars which do more than 61mpg-us on the NEDC (which is more optimistic than the EPA).
 

Padrino

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Location
Western US
TDI
2002 / Golf 1.9 TDI 5-speed
Hmm, I don't know. I was expecting it to be much better. There are loads of non-hybrid diesel cars which do more than 61mpg-us on the NEDC (which is more optimistic than the EPA).
Mike, we are looking at a different markets here. Today in Europe you could by gas powered car that will do 60MPG US, but a car like this will never, ever sell in the US.
Citroen C1 1.4HDI comes to mind with 70MPG, On the gas front how about this odd duck Toyota Aygo 1.0 lt VVTI returning almost 62MPG (imperial) but they both will never be sold in the US.
 
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