3 years, 37,000 miles... and I'm pretty sure the car has no soul.

16vjohn

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Location
Salt Lake City, UT
TDI
EA288 CVCA 6MT
I'll be the first to say it, or perhaps the only to say it. I'm pretty sure my CVCA Jetta has no soul. The essence that makes a diesel, a diesel I think has been lost with the latest generation. A maniacal obsession with reducing NVH has turned the TDI into a quiet citizen bent on conformity. Some of the things that make a diesel interesting are just gone. No discernible turbo noises, no clatter, save for what could be construed as a rattly DI gasoline engine. Torque that barely registers on the butt dyno because of perfected variable geometry.

Don't get me wrong, the Mk6 is a good platform. VW certainly did a good job in making a reliable and competitive chassis to compete in the NA market... almost too good of a job. It too me driving a 1.4T Jetta to realize just how un-spunky and uninspired the TDI really is. I've been driving TDIs for 15 years, but I think it may be time to move on.

Gents, it's truly been an honor to get to know some of you and talk diesel for so many years. I truly did enjoy the deep-dive into the design and engineering of these cars as well as watch your projects progress and grow. Perhaps there will be another diesel another time.

Later on down the road friends.
 

iamatt

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Location
Rosharon, Texas
TDI
2014 Jetta 6 Speed manual
I'll be the first to say it, or perhaps the only to say it. I'm pretty sure my CVCA Jetta has no soul. The essence that makes a diesel, a diesel I think has been lost with the latest generation. A maniacal obsession with reducing NVH has turned the TDI into a quiet citizen bent on conformity. Some of the things that make a diesel interesting are just gone. No discernible turbo noises, no clatter, save for what could be construed as a rattly DI gasoline engine. Torque that barely registers on the butt dyno because of perfected variable geometry.

Don't get me wrong, the Mk6 is a good platform. VW certainly did a good job in making a reliable and competitive chassis to compete in the NA market... almost too good of a job. It too me driving a 1.4T Jetta to realize just how un-spunky and uninspired the TDI really is. I've been driving TDIs for 15 years, but I think it may be time to move on.

Gents, it's truly been an honor to get to know some of you and talk diesel for so many years. I truly did enjoy the deep-dive into the design and engineering of these cars as well as watch your projects progress and grow. Perhaps there will be another diesel another time.

Later on down the road friends.
How's that Ford Fusion lol. Stock these things suck (TDI). Tune straight pipe and some other things make it bearable to drive for me.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Hard to disagree. My 335d has more diesel-ness than my '15 GSW. I think the MKVII is a great platform, and the EA288 with a tune is a good engine that does most things well, but acting like a diesel isn't one of them. I still think the rotary pump TDIs were the peak of evolution of the TDI engine.
 

16vjohn

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Location
Salt Lake City, UT
TDI
EA288 CVCA 6MT
How's that Ford Fusion lol. Stock these things suck (TDI). Tune straight pipe and some other things make it bearable to drive for me.
Wife's car. The 2.5 is a great engine, but the 6F35 trans is garbage one of the very very worst. Not as bad as the 01M, though. It's getting replaced with a Transit Connect in May when #3 arrives.

I know mods will make the Jetta more appealing, but I'm not willing to write off the dieselgate warranty.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I fail to see how refinement is a "bad" thing. I must be missing something, LOL. If I could snap my fingers and make my ALH perform like a brand new one, I would. But I would not want to give up its simplicity. To me, the simplicity is worth the noise, the smell, the less power, etc. The CR engines FINALLY got rid of pretty much everything anyone within reason could say "bad" about the diesel in general, just in time to get them taken away from us.
 

16vjohn

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Location
Salt Lake City, UT
TDI
EA288 CVCA 6MT
Hard to disagree. My 335d has more diesel-ness than my '15 GSW. I think the MKVII is a great platform, and the EA288 with a tune is a good engine that does most things well, but acting like a diesel isn't one of them. I still think the rotary pump TDIs were the peak of evolution of the TDI engine.
I've been told that about the BMWs by many people. I might have to go check one out even though I tend to gravitate towards Merc. I would have to say I agree with your comment about the rotary. The AHU and 1Z were my favorites by far. The ALH is undeniably a better block and better design, like you said likely the pinnacle and culmination of decades of perfection unencumbered by emissions regulation.
 

16vjohn

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Location
Salt Lake City, UT
TDI
EA288 CVCA 6MT
I fail to see how refinement is a "bad" thing. I must be missing something, LOL. If I could snap my fingers and make my ALH perform like a brand new one, I would. But I would not want to give up its simplicity. To me, the simplicity is worth the noise, the smell, the less power, etc. The CR engines FINALLY got rid of pretty much everything anyone within reason could say "bad" about the diesel in general, just in time to get them taken away from us.
I certainly agree with your sentiments overall, that the CR is "better" by the standards of most. They had to compete and make them palatable. For me personally, I was drawn to diesel by the efficiency but I stayed because it was interesting. I love the noise, the smell, the glow plug light, the looks at the truck stop pumps. And the power has always been plenty sufficient for my needs. I never felt like my stock AHU or ALH was low on power. I liked the the turbo lag of the AHU, the powerband was really fun in throw around in the city.

I respect VWs design language with regard to the EA288 generation, but it's just not the same anymore. And now, I've become my dad who maintains 1968 was the pinnacle of engine design.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I try and not turn into my dad, but I find myself getting a bit disgusted with some of the newer things too. Not necessarily engine management related, but some of it is. Silly fragile things like active grill shutters, and start-stop nonsense, and trunk releases that are 100% dependent on electronics with no mechanical backup of any kind.

This is the stuff that will not age well. But consumerism pushes for so much of this stuff, that it becomes difficult to even avoid it.

The CR TDIs would be perfect IF they A: actually met any and all requirements put forth from the get go, no matter which side spirit of or letter of the law, with no special shennanigans and if there was something that falls into normalcy of operation it get discussed and resolved with the powers of rule BEFORE being put into production and B: if the components in place to make A feasible were in fact THOROUGHLY tested for a reasonable level of robustness in the every day world.

And this goes for a lot of manufacturers, on a lot of different platforms. It is not limited to diesels or to Volkswagen. An example: We are just into February, and we've already had three GM 1.4L turbo engines in here blown up, not a single one made it past 70k miles. That is pretty awful.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I find the common rail engines, even the emissions systems, aren't the cause of worry for me. It's the other stuff in the car. For some reason I have low confidence in some electrical stuff working over time, like the electric locking and unlocking of the steering, the rear camera (I'd turn that thing off if I could figure out how), and the not altogether clear interaction between the car's systems and the stereo head unit.

I think the MKVII is a great platform. I'm impressed with its ride, handling, quiet, and economy. And among modern cars it's pretty simple, especially in the base verison I have. But if I could buy a new MKIV at just about any price, I would in a heartbeat.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The reliance on electronics became an issue for a customer of mine recently on his 2007 Jetta. The RF door latch died, the lock actuator will not work. You cannot manually lock the door. There is no knob. You can unlock it if it refused to unlock, just pull the inside release. But there is no way to lock it.

So, if you park the car, and hit the LOCK button on the fob, the CE module sits and waits for the LOCK signal to come from the RF door module. Which never comes. Because it can't lock. Because the actuator in the latch is bad. So if you do not realize this, when you come back the next morning... the battery is dead.

Guy was having a mental meltdown over this. He HAD to be able to lock his car (for security reasons). So I told him I HAVE to replace the latch! :p More cars are getting like this, but this must have been a first for him. :eek:

New latch installed, all working fine. No dead battery. Car secure. But something super simple brought down by something electronic.
 

soldierguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2004
Location
California
TDI
'15 Jetta TDI S DSG
To me, my '15 Jetta TDI has less character than some previous VW's I've owned (notably a GTI and a '96 Jetta GLX), but it is still more of a driver's car than many other cars out there. For instance, the '16 Prius I traded in on the TDI. Just under 21 months and 93,500 miles in the Prius. That car has no soul. Reliable and efficient, but completely soulless.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Saying a MKVI Jetta has more soul than a Prius is damning with faint praise, I think. I appreciate modern diesels. But I still like the old ones, too.
 

soldierguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2004
Location
California
TDI
'15 Jetta TDI S DSG
I didn't mean it to come off as damning with faint praise. Yes, the engine is refined, the steering is light, the brakes are too light to the touch, and the ride is comfy. But it still responds with an accuracy that is absent in many other cars. Driving it back to back with other mainstream cars, the Jetta still has a German feel, if more muted than in previous generations.
 

16vjohn

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Location
Salt Lake City, UT
TDI
EA288 CVCA 6MT
Admittedly, I feel like I can throw the Jetta's weight around pretty easily. I don't get the same feeling from the Fusion, even though the Fusion is by most measures a European Mondeo, sans diesel. The independent rear Mk6 does handle well for it's price.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Modeo with a bit of an obesity problem. And we get no wagon version, in addition to no diesel, and now no manuals either.

Shame, because I kinda like the Fusion.
 

tomo366

TDI Lifer, Member #68
Joined
Jun 30, 1997
Location
Kensington, Maryland USA
TDI
2015 Jetta SEL TDI
My 2015 Jetta SEL TDI 6 Speed Manual loaded up one of Chris’ last cars Has soul lots of it! Wife drives it now my 2014 328DX-drive is the most expensive and well appointed cars I have ever owned! And I love them both!
 

16vjohn

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Location
Salt Lake City, UT
TDI
EA288 CVCA 6MT
I'm a flip-flopper. :( I listed the car for an exorbitant amount, 20% more than its listed value. My phone was ringing off the hook all day. I had cash offers, sight unseen. My only thought was this was the only manual transmission 2015 I could find anywhere on any of the classifieds in my area.

The thought of selling it now gave me seller's remorse, so I decided to keep it because I'm a jealous consumer stooge. :(

I ordered a trailer hitch, trailer light and brake controller, tinted windows... Now looking to liven up the noises with some exhaust mods.

For better or for worse, till' death do us part.
 

Stealth TDI

Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 13, 1998
Location
Newport News, VA
TDI
2017 GTI APR Stage 3 (395 hp/376 lb-ft)
Hello,

It took me driving a 1.4T Jetta to realize just how un-spunky and uninspired the TDI really is.
I just pulled the trigger on one of the last Silk Blue Mk6 Jetta SE's with 1.4T and manual transmission. I'm travelling out of state to pick it up next weekend. It's for the wife. She test drove one a couple of weeks ago. Her granny-driving-style doesn't really exploit the TDI's low-end torque. So I don't think she noticed any setbacks in performance.

Your comment reads as if the TDI is unspunky compared to the 1.4T. Overall horsepower is similar, but the TDI has more torque. How did the TDI feel unspunky when compared to the 1.4T? Or did I misinterpret your post?

Scott
 

tomo366

TDI Lifer, Member #68
Joined
Jun 30, 1997
Location
Kensington, Maryland USA
TDI
2015 Jetta SEL TDI
My 2013 Jetta Hybrid came with the same 1.4 T Motor and added a 27 HP electric motor and 7 speed DSG this was a neat car and it was pretty quick....problem with adding an electric was if you pressed down on the go pedal it would go unfortunately the gas did too....never got anywhere near the advertised Gas mileage and you lost gas tank size and trunk size!
 

16vjohn

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Location
Salt Lake City, UT
TDI
EA288 CVCA 6MT
Hello,
I just pulled the trigger on one of the last Silk Blue Mk6 Jetta SE's with 1.4T and manual transmission. I'm travelling out of state to pick it up next weekend. It's for the wife. She test drove one a couple of weeks ago. Her granny-driving-style doesn't really exploit the TDI's low-end torque. So I don't think she noticed any setbacks in performance.
Your comment reads as if the TDI is unspunky compared to the 1.4T. Overall horsepower is similar, but the TDI has more torque. How did the TDI feel unspunky when compared to the 1.4T? Or did I misinterpret your post?
Scott
No, you pretty well got it. It's hard to put my thumb on any one point, but I'll try to explain. Even though the max power is similar and the TDI has more torque, it seems slower. The power delivery is much smoother, to the detriment of character. It's the type over over-refinement I expect to find in a Lexus. The 1.4 has just the right amount of NVH. Other than that, the power just seems more usable and ready in the 1.4T. It winds up faster, and it seemed like passing on the highway was more effortless. The TDI certainly feels utilitarian and versatile. A quiet performer that sits in the corner and never complains. Very... German, yet unexciting.

The complexity of the TDI is staggering, and it scares me. The amount of fuel lines, coolant lines, DEF lines, wires, clamps, coolers, aux water pumps, variable oil pump, water pump damper, delicate emissions system, etc. Big ??? items like cylinder pressure sensors, high pressure EGR, rubber belt in oil for oil pump, VCDS for a fuel filter every 20k... Poor engineering for serviceability, like oil filter underneath because of a knee-jerk reaction to icing intercoolers. That filter is obscured by wires and hoses that must be moved out of the way. Even if careful, oil changes are messy and time consuming...

The 1.4T is beautifully simple. Lots of room to work on all sides of the engine. This feels like the modern-day ABA. VW's blue collar engine. Just enough power to be exciting, yet a solid performer. Tunability of turbo. Simple service intervals, cheaper oil... and 40mpg on the highway. And VERY cheap to buy comparatively.

If I had to do it all over again, I'd go for a manual trans 1.4T. I'm not sure if had a EA288, but you'll see what I mean when you get to know your wife's new car.
 
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ezshift5

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2003
Location
West Coast
TDI
2013 JSW TDI (Enroute BB).......2017 Jetta 1.4 turbo 5M ....................
The 1.4T is beautifully simple. Lots of room to work on all sides of the engine. This feels like the modern-day ABA. VW's blue collar engine. Just enough power to be exciting, yet a solid performer. Tunability of turbo. Simple service intervals, cheaper oil... and 40mpg on the highway. And VERY cheap to buy comparatively.

If I had to do it all over again, I'd go for a manual trans 1.4T. I'm not sure if had a EA288, but you'll see what I mean when you get to know your wife's new car.
John, you're words are sure positive - in that a '17 Jetta 1.4/5M followed my buyback '13 JSW TDI 6M.

The diesel's torque, fuel efficiency and inner space factors remain with me.......

But your view on the 1.4 really mirrors mine........HALF the wagon's OTD cost and close to her fuel numbers!!


all the best from our left coast.




ez
 

Stealth TDI

Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 13, 1998
Location
Newport News, VA
TDI
2017 GTI APR Stage 3 (395 hp/376 lb-ft)
John,

Thanks for the clarification. We're finalizing the 1.4T purchase now. I'll use the 550-mile return trip to ensure the engine is broken-in properly. I'm currently waiting for VW to switch my claim from "fix" to "buyback." So the buyback will proceed soon. Someone is coming to look at my old Mk3 tomorrow. I may soon find myself without a TDI in my driveway for the first time in 20 years. :eek:

Scott
 

tdi54

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2010
Location
California
TDI
1981 Rabbit Diesel(sold), 2009 Jetta TDI MT(sold)2010 Jetta TDI MT, 2015 Jetta TDI SEL, DSG, 99 Ford F 350 PSD Dually, 2016 BMW X5 xDrive35d, 2016 535d
16vJohn, If I were you, I would not let your car go. There simply not many MT on 2015 Jetta's in the market and if you sell it, you would be hard pressed to find a car that would share the general characteristics--that we all appreciate--of Europen TDI cars.

I am in the process of buying 2015 Jetta TDI with DSG. I had driven the car twice [as a test drive], the vehicle just did not accelerate the way my current 2010 Jetta TDI does. With higher hp and better torque band, one would expect the 2015 out perform the EA189 engine easily, but this not what I have noticed and it's disappointing.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I am in the process of buying 2015 Jetta TDI with DSG. I had driven the car twice [as a test drive], the vehicle just did not accelerate the way my current 2010 Jetta TDI does. With higher hp and better torque band, one would expect the 2015 out perform the EA189 engine easily, but this not what I have noticed and it's disappointing.
A tune fixes that.

I like my GSW, and it's a keeper, but I still like the more mechanical nature of older TDIs. Right now my '15 is sitting in the corner of my garage on a battery tender.
 

forrest resto`s

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2007
Location
athens ga.
TDI
2000 jetta tdi auto rc2 2013 passat tdi 2015 passat tdi auto 2011 jetta tdi nav. s'roof..man. dpf delete 1970 GTO JUDGE 520 HP
I hope you all don't forget the "other" benefit of TDI"S....no lines when there is a fuel "crunch" or some other "gas" shortage ( if and/or when it ever happens:eek:) and the stability of diesel.. last much longer than gas..I can store 100 gallons in a dispenser tank on my property..kinda handy..
 

tdi54

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2010
Location
California
TDI
1981 Rabbit Diesel(sold), 2009 Jetta TDI MT(sold)2010 Jetta TDI MT, 2015 Jetta TDI SEL, DSG, 99 Ford F 350 PSD Dually, 2016 BMW X5 xDrive35d, 2016 535d
A tune fixes that.

I like my GSW, and it's a keeper, but I still like the more mechanical nature of older TDIs. Right now my '15 is sitting in the corner of my garage on a battery tender.

I guess so, a tune would be in near future as I expect to get the vehicle this weekend. Actually I was buying yesterday, but there was slight vibration at highway speeds, so I asked them to repair it before I buy the car. When it comes to TDI's I never like the idea of buying used, however this time having no choice I have to buy the used one with 25K on the odometer.
 

16vjohn

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Location
Salt Lake City, UT
TDI
EA288 CVCA 6MT
Scott, how are you liking the 1.4? My TDI Jetta is back at the dealer for the 4th time for timing belt issues, so they gave me the 1.4T loaner again. Since it's a bit warmer now, I decided to check out the engine bits.

No maf, integrated diverter valve, water to air intercooler, water cooled turbo. I really like the design. The turbo sounds are very loud with the stock airbox removed. It's got a lot of character. I'd like to try one with a manual transmission.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The 1.4T is beautifully simple. Lots of room to work on all sides of the engine. .

This engine is in no way as simple as the old SOHC 2.0L cross flow engines, LMAO. The forced induction alone compounds the complexity quite a bit, but add in the vario intake, vario cams, vario flow water pump (which is a $300 part, made of plastic, and they are already starting to fail...), there are two thermostats, an additional water pump (because you know, one overly complex fragile one isn't enough... let's add another one!)... heck, even the oil pump is controlled electronically!

I think it performs admirably well for its small size. But simple it is not. Not by a long shot. :p
 

Stealth TDI

Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 13, 1998
Location
Newport News, VA
TDI
2017 GTI APR Stage 3 (395 hp/376 lb-ft)
John,

Scott, how are you liking the 1.4? My TDI Jetta is back at the dealer for the 4th time for timing belt issues, so they gave me the 1.4T loaner again. Since it's a bit warmer now, I decided to check out the engine bits.
I'm flying to OH tonight to pick up the car tomorrow. Tomorrow will be my first drive. We'll see what kind of MPGs it pulls on a 99% highway trip back to VA.

Scott
 
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