Need some help with a good crank and no start

Chris_TDI_98 said:

If possible can you ask a nearby vcds owner to come by (unless you already have vcds cable) and see if vcds can tell you anything that regular obd2 doesn’t.
Because the engine computer MUST detect the engine is failing to start and have a good idea as to the reason why (injection pump or quantity or whatever) and put that reason in a vcds code.

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I used VAG Com and just a radio code from installing the new battery. If I unplug one of the electrical connectors to the IP and crank, then it gives about 4 codes related to the QA etc. So certain faults its records when cranking if they are there.

Here’s an idea to try. it helped diagnose my issue.

Have a helper jumper from battery 12V + to the top of the injection pump shutoff relay solenoid.
You should hear a click as the fuel cutoff solenoid opens up.
Then try starting it.
See if it makes different sounds while cranking.
On your video it sounds like it ignites and immediately gets blown out about once every third or fourth crank..

Yes I have tried this early on. The solenoid works just fine.

I’m not following...

You pulled the IP, because you and a shop said it’s not pumping. Did you send it out to have it gone over, or did you just reinstall it?

-Todd

I sent the pump out and they rebuilt it.

If you’re getting smoke at the tailpipe, try this...

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=5433422&postcount=7011

-Todd

I just got done getting my swap to run and the thing I learned about the codes is that if you have power to the 109 and it is powering all but one circuit you will get an implausible signal, however, if it's not powering anything you would likely not get a code at all.


Me thinks you need to look at your T14a and the wires between it the fuel pump and the 109, and the 109 circuit to rule it out all together before proceeding.
Make sure the 109 and everything it's connected to is good before moving on is my recommendation.

Check voltage at both sides of fuses 32, 34, and 43 and make sure it's good, first stop on the relay. and swap the relay with a known good one if you haven't already.

I left the t14a unplugged and chased my tail for a few hours until I saw it, afterwards it fired right up; well almost, but now it does.


A quick rundown of what you have tried and where you're at would help us all see it a bit clearer maybe

What is T14a?

T14a is the plug next to the battery that goes into the fuse panel inside from engine harness.
I was watching your video and got as far as the pump and replacement of it. I realized that your injectors are clogged up, or the number 3 is bad, the one with the plug. That the cat or the ECM/communication to pump.
Reasoning behind these thoughts is your process with the fuel pump.
If the fuel pump isn't drawing fuel either it's not being told to (should draw code from ECM as to why). Or it has no where to go.
Where does it go, to the injectors, cylinder, exhaust.
You need to pull the injectors and test for flow, especially 3 with the wire.
If those are good the exhaust is clogged.
I read a thread where the cat was so clogged they had a no start.

Just going down the process you have a signal from computer to fuel pump, make sure it's there, via t14a and upper loom, check at pump.
If signal is there and your pumps rebuilt, it's getting the signal injectors aren't doing what they should, or exhaust isn't.

I believe it's one of the three.

Okay just finished watching the cranking of the engine and I absolutely see no smoke out of the tail pipe.
Either it's not injecting fuel, it's not getting air, or it just has nowhere to go.
Also what about the ASV? AIR IN?
Please run through the steps above,
Better yet, disconnect the down pipe and crank it first before the rest of the steps. Pretty cheap to get 3 new nuts and if the cat is clogged you should fire up fairly quickly. Rule the exhaust in or out of the equation as you have the fuel tank.
When was the last time you installed injector nozzles? Wear item that has a lot to do with this.
From where you are there's nowhere left to go to other than here.

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I have another video I did not post of the smoke puffing out while cranking. However I will disconnect the down pipe and see what happens. The injectors have like 20k miles on them at the most. I have tons of fuel squirting out of the nuts if I loosen them while cranking. I was going to take each injector out and hook it up to the pump and crank it into a jar to view the spray.


These are good test points you have brought up!


From all my reading even if the #3 injector was electrically no good the car would still run, just not very well. That darn injector is almost $500 and nobody seems to know what the ohm reading should be if its good.

A trick to try in case it’s a fuel injection issue:
Put a small vise grips (with soft cloths in between) or spring loaded clothespins on the fuel return line, see if this gets it to start up.

eddieleephd said:

Also what about the ASV? AIR IN?

Better yet, disconnect the down pipe and crank it first before the rest of the steps. Pretty cheap to get 3 new nuts and if the cat is clogged you should fire up fairly quickly. Rule the exhaust in or out of the equation as you have the fuel tank.

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You do know this is an AHU and not an ALH, right? No ASV and there are 4 nuts on the exhaust.

Abacus said:

You do know this is an AHU and not an ALH, right? No ASV and there are 4 nuts on the exhaust.

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Didn't get that, it's a diesel VW though and all the rest applies, I see the vacuum line missing from the egr and assume he has it plugged or stealth. Good to know about the ahu, though.
Air comes in fuel comes in and exhaust must leave fast enough.
Not cold enough for the glow plugs to matter with the compression he's getting.
Timing is good and fuel seems to be getting there, so what are the air and exhaust doing.
Bad turbo would start and not boost unless frozen, then it still might.
Clogged air, closed asv, no intake valves opening, however those seem to check out due to the timing and valve cover checks. I assume he hasn't let the incoming air plenum get clogged, and filters good enough.
Only thing left is the exhaust and electrical signals.
The increased slow to start for so long and then no start are the real clues and a clogging cat would definitely fit the scenario.
As would a fuel pump, which is reman so it is assumed good at this point unless there was a flaw in the process, yet, it seems to be pumping fuel through.
Injectors are at 20k so it's really unlikely they would go at one time.
Other than that I'm left with a broken wire, crazy ground fault, or bad ecu...

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How to check the cat in-place for blockage (while exhaust still connected):
https://youtu.be/IzyvL5tQLzU

Dieselworld said:

I have another video I did not post of the smoke puffing out while cranking. However I will disconnect the down pipe and see what happens. The injectors have like 20k miles on them at the most. I have tons of fuel squirting out of the nuts if I loosen them while cranking. I was going to take each injector out and hook it up to the pump and crank it into a jar to view the spray.


These are good test points you have brought up!


From all my reading even if the #3 injector was electrically no good the car would still run, just not very well. That darn injector is almost $500 and nobody seems to know what the ohm reading should be if its good.

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"Tons of fuel squirting out"

I don't care about the flow here so much as the pressure. how far up is it squirting?

Dieselworld said:

From all my reading even if the #3 injector was electrically no good the car would still run, just not very well. That darn injector is almost $500 and nobody seems to know what the ohm reading should be if its good.

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The car will not run, with #3 unplugged. A few members verified this when I was chasing a bad CPS. Bad CPS will also cause a no start condition, although the Bentley states otherwise.

Impedance should be between 80-120 ohms. Used sets of injectors sell for way less than $500.

-Todd

Chris_TDI_98 said:

How to check the cat in-place for blockage (while exhaust still connected):
https://youtu.be/IzyvL5tQLzU

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This procedure requires the engine to start!

ToddA1 said:

The car will not run, with #3 unplugged. A few members verified this when I was chasing a bad CPS. Bad CPS will also cause a no start condition, although the Bentley states otherwise.

Impedance should be between 80-120 ohms. Used sets of injectors sell for way less than $500.

-Todd

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When I tested it I believe it was around 112 ohm. Could it test out ok via ohm but still be defective I wonder...

Dieselworld said:

When I tested it I believe it was around 112 ohm. Could it test out ok via ohm but still be defective I wonder...

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Unlikely, have you disconnected the cat and tried to start it?

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If you crack open the injectors and crank it, do you get fuel coming out front the injectors?

Have you tried to hook a one-way valve on the fuel lines to check if it's fuel going back to the tank?

Do the RPMs rise on the dash while cranking?

eddieleephd said:

Unlikely, have you disconnected the cat and tried to start it?

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I removed the CAT yesterday and it still wont start. It was probably 75% blocked which I suppose is normal as its original 378K miles.

k_pt said:

If you crack open the injectors and crank it, do you get fuel coming out front the injectors?

Have you tried to hook a one-way valve on the fuel lines to check if it's fuel going back to the tank?

Do the RPMs rise on the dash while cranking?

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Yes lots of fuel coming out of the lines. I hooked up a clear supply and return line to see exactly what is happening and both are functioning normal. Getting around 350 rpm while cranking.

Dieselworld said:

Yes lots of fuel coming out of the lines. I hooked up a clear supply and return line to see exactly what is happening and both are functioning normal. Getting around 350 rpm while cranking.

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Compression test? Timing?

ToddA1 said:

The car will not run, with #3 unplugged. A few members verified this when I was chasing a bad CPS. Bad CPS will also cause a no start condition, although the Bentley states otherwise.

Impedance should be between 80-120 ohms. Used sets of injectors sell for way less than $500.

-Todd

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I am curious if you have checked the wiring between the#3 injector and verified that the wires are good with 0 Ohms impedence. Like I said before, unless they messed up the pump, either fuel isn't going in or had nowhere to go.
I would leave the cat disconnected until it starts and runs, and run down the electrical so long as you have done a compression test (thought you mentioned that being done), if you can check actual pressure to the injectors and verify that the pump is not defective and there's enough pressure to pop the injectors, possibly pop test the injectors (20k should be okay) no assumptions if you want to figure it out.
If you have to pull the #1 injector and turn the line to it and stick a clear tube over it so you can see what happens with the fuel as it comes out (poor man's pop test).
This was the only way I could think of getting a view of the initial and main injection events.

To figure it out you need to rule out the assumptions and make them facts. Fuel actually entering the engine is a huge one, the video without smoke posted said that fuel wasn't entering the engine, or couldn't make it through the exhaust. Cat disconnected, look for smoke as it's cranked. If there's no smoke, then you need to find why no fuel is entering the engine. Bad nozzles, rebuilt pump, shut off valve, or signal to the pump/valve(you said it was operational, however, check the voltage when cranking and make sure it's getting 12V and opening all the way.) Really just have to run this one down with a solid plan.

As far as I see it, the timing is good, exhaust is separated, turbo is functional, I believe that you said you checked cam and crank sensors, (cam and crank sensors should be checked on ac with your DMM, voltage expected should be up to 2 volts generally speaking not sure what the spec is, just know if there's no AC voltage when cranking the engine sensor's no good.)
The rest is questionable.

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And I am still wondering about that crank sensor.
Found this statement:

SoCATDI said:

Well an update is due! When I joined the two electrical connectors I guess I did not push them together well enough and on reinspection they were not seated. I pushed harder and wala(sp) ignition!!! The longest it would run in my driveway at 2000 rpms prior to today was about 9 minutes. Today I ran it for about 45 minutes the longest is has run since the problem started. I believe the problem is solved. All the symptons and the story are in prior posts. The best clue was the dry cranking and no rpms on the tack... The cutting off of the engine w/o prior warning started about a week ago. At any rate thanks to all that posted threads regarding this issue. socal is back in the saddle.

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http://www.forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=472479
More information about crank sensor
http://www.forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=477261

And this one is really fitting to the situation
http://www.forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=406880

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I really doubt it's an eletric issue.

If you are getting fuel past the fuel pump theres nothing electronically limiting injection, if the engine is timmed, and there is compression, you should get cylinders firing.

Also, the cluster is showing RPMs.

k_pt said:

I really doubt it's an eletric issue.

If you are getting fuel past the fuel pump theres nothing electronically limiting injection, if the engine is timmed, and there is compression, you should get cylinders firing.

Also, the cluster is showing RPMs.

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Rule it out then, do a test and eliminate it absolutely or risk chasing your tail thinking it's good.

If voltage is low to the shutoff solenoid it could be limiting the available fuel and thus the pressure that the pump can put out. Broken wire can cause this.
As I said in my last post I saw no smoke in the tail pipe, white or black, and that means no fuel.
He said hes getting fuel to the injectors, however, doesn't seem to be enough pressure to send it into the pistons, otherwise, there would have been smoke coming out. What other reasons are there to rule out?

I also follow the scientific method and require hard proof in order to say something is a fact.
I tend toward there being no or not enough fuel reaching the cylinders.
Can you pull injectors and visually inspect they aren’t jammed up with sludge?
If the injectors were jammed blocked, what would the car do? Exactly as it’s doing right now, isn’t it, crank and fail to start??
Do you have a locking fuel tank cap??

I am getting a lot of smoke while cranking now. I think in the video I said after it was shot I redid the timing and it was off a few degrees. Its right on the money and belching smoke as I am cranking. Taking off the cat really helped with cranking speed, it was pretty blocked up, but still no start.