How Screwed Am I? Block Damage

How screwed am I?

Well guys, I just purchased a 2001 Jetta TDI. The interior and the exterior are in immaculate condition and I feel like I got a good deal on that.

Then comes the motor. When I test drove it it ran great and everything was perfect. I leaked a moderate amount of oil and I figured it was the head gasket that needed to be replaced. Damn I was wrong.

I saw in a few places there there have been issues with the boss breaking at the rear of the engine for the PS motor mount. Well, for me it ripped the entire corner off the block.

As of right now, one of the oil gallies from the head is open to the atmosphere. This is where the oil is leaking slowly from. When I add oil and direct it in that direction I can watch it flow right on back out.

First a few questions:

1. How good is the PCV system at keeping negative pressure? DOes it do well to keep it always below 1 bar absolute? This goes into the JB weld repair
2. I have not yet checked through the for sale section (I will), but how hard is it to come by a block?
3. Can someone confirm that the block is made of cast iron? Does anyone know any specifications for the material?

Repair Options. I have kicked around a few ideas. I do alot of work on my gas cars but this is the first experience with diesel.

1. Replace the Block. Heads seem to be fine
2. Replace the short block.
3. Remove the block and attempt a weld repair on the material.

4. JB Weld. Yes, I know, please keep the laughter at a minimum. The reason I am thinking about this is that the bock is not highly stressed in this area and all I am trying to do is keep the oil in the galley. I am not sure how I would secure the JB weld as I am not sure if it will bond to the material. I am sure some kind of prep would be required. Sanding, grinding, maybe adding some studs or something for the JB weld to grab onto. A secondary to this is to fabricate a piece of steel plate which will fit into the damaged areas. An opening would remain at the top to release any pressure.

I talked to the dealer where I bought it and they are willing to help out with the repairs... maybe. I have not gotten into specifics with them yet about what, if anything they will pay for. Here in florida there is no 3 day take it back period. Once you sign the papers its done.

Attached are some photos of the problem area.

Christian

The first two photos are the inside of the block:



Some photos of the outside of the block:

You aren't the first person this has happened to, and won't be the last. It occurs because the horizontal bolt from the mount bracket to the block was torqued incorrectly or broke or ? The damage you sustained, imho, should be considered the end of the line for that block. While cast iron can be welded, the amount of work it will take to get the block ready to be welded would negate the benefit of trying to salvage it. That's assuming you have the missing chunk to weld back in place. I would just buy a new block and be done with it. I wonder who did the last timing belt on that car ?

Now that I think about it, you noticed this oil leak before you bought it ? Did you make mention of it to the dealership before you signed the papers ?

Before I signed the papers I knew there was a leak. I did not notice the broken block. I figured it was the head gasket or some other oil line and that it could be repaired. This is the first time that i have come across a block that was broken.

The thing is... According to the sales guy it was in the shop before the sale to replace some misc parts. He stated that the oil was changed. If this was the case then they knew there was a problem because when you put oil in, oil comes out in huge quantities.

Based on that I could probably have a good case to negate the contract. The thing is that I did get a good price for the car and the interior and exterior are in great condition.

Blue book for the car is 4600 but I have seen them sell with less options around town for around 6500. I got it for 4800.

My plan is to attempt a repair using steel plate and JB weld. At the same time I am going to work the dealer for some compensation.

The timing belt does not look bad. No frayed edges or damage to the rubber. If its anything like gas cars I would estimate 20-30k on the belt.

Christian

If this is related to a botched timing belt attempt, I'm willing to bet you have other clean-up matters to address.

Can you get your $$$ back?

Dieseldorf: Its possible. I really don't know much about these cars other than what I can transfer over from my gas cars. If I asked for the money back the answer would be no. The only way that I could get it back is to take them to court and try to prove that they knew about this major mechanical defect and did not disclose it. I am not sure though that they are required to.

n1das: thats more than I paid for the whole car. I would probably go the route of selling the car as-is (disclosing everything), take the loss and buy another.

If it came to get a block, machining it, and then transfering all the parts, its not out of the question. That is not out side of the skill set.

My first attempt at fixing this will be to do the following:

1. Disassemble the intake system.
2. Drain oil and remove oil pan.
3. Clean affected area with a degreasing agent.
4. Fabricate a rolled steel plate which fits into the broken area with clearance
5. Use JB weld to cover the hole.

This will not allow for the installation of the engine mount bolt but there is nothing that I can do about that. What it will do is stop the leakage of oil. Other than the oil dripping on the floor the engine runs great. The damage does not appear to affect the operating characteristics.

If this does not work or fails, then I have not lost anything other than a few tubes of JB weld and my time. At that point I can go ahead, get a block and tranfer all the parts.

ninedee_golf_tdi said:

The damage you sustained, imho, should be considered the end of the line for that block.

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There are very few, if any, matters relating to TDI's where I would ever be tempted to disagree with ninedee_golf...

You can probably find a reasonably-priced engine with a bad cylinder head... (happens quite often as a result of a badly performed timing belt change...)

Good luck,

Yuri

(PS: I recently found a used engine for $400... had to transfer over most of the accessories, but my car's up and running...)

I agree with ninedee. A replacement block is the right way to go. As of this time though I do not have the budget or the time to do that unless absolutely necessary.

I work a decent amount with welding very old (30-40 years) casting and I realize that the weld option is unlikely.

I figured I would try to fix it first as a temporary (if it works, permanent) measure and plan on replacing the block in the fall when the weather is not as hot.

Can anyone answer the question about

I'd attempt to get out of the deal if you can. It's a real shame that someone would try to sell a car to someone like this... If you got it for 2,000 then it would be fair.

rackaracka said:

I'd attempt to get out of the deal if you can. It's a real shame that someone would try to sell a car to someone like this... If you got it for 2,000 then it would be fair.

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I know. I was thinking about using the fact that they had to know about the damage as leverage to get it fixed. I could push them to take the car back or have the mechanic pay the repairs, but I do like the car.

I have been in contact with them regarding the issue but have not pushed them yet.

They are going to send me the receipts for the repairs which were performed before I bought the car. As stated, part of this was the oil change. If a oil change was performed there would have been obvious evidence of the damage. I want to get these receipts before doing anything else so that the don't get "lost".

Also, just to clarify. This was not a serious dealer. This was more along the lines of Joes used car lot.

I have been looking for a decent one of these with the options that I wanted for the last 2 months. So far this was the only one that I have found within my price range.

I just have to believe the car was parked around the corner from that car lot, then a few cans of brake clean were used to wash the block free of the oil, the owner tossed the keys to the lot bubba and ran. Any chance of tracking that owner down for some maintenance history ?

ninedee_golf_tdi said:

I just have to believe the car was parked around the corner from that car lot, then a few cans of brake clean were used to wash the block free of the oil, the owner tossed the keys to the lot bubba and ran. Any chance of tracking that owner down for some maintenance history ?

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Unfortunately no. The car is Canadian. It was traded in to a Mercedes dealership in Gainesville who then sold it to the used car lot where I got it here in Orlando.

As far as I can tell, the dealer in Gainesville registered as required and then immediately sold it. According to the carfax it was never registered anywhere else in the US.

I thank you all for the comments. But, what do you think of the temporary repair options to the block? I doesn't need to be a sealed system, I just want to stop the oil leak.

JB Weld is pretty tough. If you have to keep this basket case, then that's where I would start. I wouldn't put my kids in it for a long trip, or park it in my driveway or garage.

That's the plan. I don't have any kids and the garage floor is painted for easy cleaning.

I drove this thing about 300 miles so far with no significant loss of oil. If the repair works I will be checking it regularly to determine if its going to hold for the long term. Once I get some money saved up I will likely start planning on the block replacement. That, and once it is cold enough to work in the garage in the afternoons without dying.

There were a lot of "nay sayers" when there was a guy fixing his 5th gear with locktight as well. He has 20k on it now and counting. There is very little to loose by trying it. Those damn shifty Canadians.

Good luck! Let us know how you make out in the long run.

Thanks guys. Glad to see that the TDI club is as friendly as what I have seen from the 3000GT club.

As I am new this this particular forum, I am not sure of protocol. If I were to start another thread about the actual repair, where should I put it? In this sub-forum, or would there be somewhere better?

Thanks
Christian

Just curious when you bought the car. You legally have three days on any loan if you should choose to return the car.

Good luck Mr. Wizard, hope your fabrication and JBweld repair works.

I'm surprised that you're not losing more oil with that thing exposed like that.

The block is pretty much done... trying to repair it with JB Weld certainly can't hurt!

79TA7.6 said:

Just curious when you bought the car. You legally have three days on any loan if you should choose to return the car.

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Purchased the car last friday. It was not a loan so the 3 day rule does not apply.

VeeDubTDI said:

I'm surprised that you're not losing more oil with that thing exposed like that.

The block is pretty much done... trying to repair it with JB Weld certainly can't hurt!

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Thanks

I say go for using the JB Weld. What have you got to lose? You can't make it any worse and it just might work! If it works, make sure you e-mail JB weld with your testamonial.

If it does not work, resort to Plan B, and used engine w/ a bad head for cheap.

--Nate

I would be leary of the timing belt as well. You cannot tell by just looking at it. See all those little rollers that it rides on? They usually fail before the belt and shred it.

This engine already has a cracked block so I know it's probably shot, but at least the head is still salvageable. If the timing belt snaps, the head will need to get rebuilt as well.

http://http://idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=121&products_id=449

Cheap insurance. Rent the lockdown tools and VCDS from somebody here.

As for the crack, I would try JBwelding it. What do you have to loose at this point?

Mr. Wizard:
When I bought the '01 Jetta as a salvage title it had been in a "light" roll-over. A bit of damage here and there that was visual, plus the air bags. Then came the damage that was unseen, by me and the salvage dealer. The accident had broken the engine mount and the block almost exactly like yours and of course I didn't have the piece that was missing. Did a JB Weld patch to test engine until I discovered that the center part of the mount goes thru the middle of the TB path and had derailed the belt, which destroyed the head, cam, lifters, etc. That was my initiation to TDIs. I bought a new longblock and swaped engines and sold the damaged one to someone here for parts that rebuilds engines, as the pistons, rods, crank, etc were all good w/30K miles on them. Engine swap isn't too bad to do, the "new" one went in in an afternoon and I don't have a shop/lift-just a garage. Finding and getting a replacement shipped here undamaged was the hardest part. I went thru three before I got one that wasn't freight damaged. This was a few years ago, so now finding a replacement engine w/o mega-miles might mean buying a new shortblock might be the better route. I don't think the JB Weld patch would be permanent, although I repaired the exhaust manifolds on my Dad's Mercruiser I/O with it several years ago and it has held fine, but they are watercooled and were very different from repairing the block. If you do try to fix the block, remember to insert a tube/pipe in there to keep the oil passage open. I had used a copper tubing flaired at the top to hold it in place until the JB set up. I may have some more pics of the broken block that is in my avatar.
I didn't read all the posts, but there was a lot of good advice offered up. Feel free to PM me if you want some more info on my experience with this. Buy a motor, if you plan to keep and drive this VW.

JB Weld is good stuff, but it will not hold up to the thermal cycling an engine block experiences. I personally bought a car with the same issue as yours; the block was painted after a "rebuild" and I did not notice the JB weld repair for 3000 miles, then it cracked and started leaking. And it was in the block skirt where a rod had been thrown, not in a structural area.