Geneva 08: Volkswagen Golf TDI Hybrid (US market in mind)

Blue_Hen_TDI · May 8, 2008

So you're telling me it would be a massive undertaking to beef up the safety to DOT on the Polo they sell worldwide, add the clean diesel treatment they are bringing with the new Jetta TDIs that are arriving as we speak, and price it in the $15K range? It seems like a no-brainer to me. Maybe I'm overestimating the logistical prowess of one of the world's largest automobile manufacturers.

frugality · May 8, 2008

$15k? Not a chance, with the dollar/euro disparity. And it'd take a while to get Puebla set up to manufacture it if they wanted to avoid that dollar/euro hit. IIRC, the Puebla plant is almost at capacity as it is, so they may not even be able to build it there.

Remember that the TDI Golf at $16k wasn't making VW any money, either, and that was before the DPF. So I don't think they're able to make econo-boxes with all the expensive diesel exhaust after-treatement AND still be competitive in price AND make a modest profit for VW. It's easier to squeeze $1000 profit into a higher-pricetag car.

Blue_Hen_TDI · May 8, 2008

A base gasser Rabbit is <$16K. Why would it be such a stretch to put a tiny 1.5L TDI in a smaller platform at the same price point?

Again, I'm oversimplifying and your points are valid, but VW missed a huge opportunity. Had a Polo been in the works the past three years and available this fall for even $20K, it would have been a boon for VW. 70 mpg would open even current Prius-owners' eyes.

Rexking414 · May 8, 2008

Actually In the survey in my sig The Rabbit was leading for 1st expect since last tuesday were it dropped to second. New results:

1. Tiguan
2. Rabbit
3. Jetta Sport wagon
4. Polo
5. Passat Wagon

If you notice the Sedan Jetta isn't even in the top five. This is what the people want. If you wanna see more take it, and submit it and there is now a results page at the end. Everything that's voted for is contradicting what VWOA marketing says the people want.

Blue_Hen_TDI · May 8, 2008

That's because VWoA marketing will always say the people want the car that makes the most profit/unit for VW.

That's why we got the $80K Phaeton and the $70K Toe Rag V10 and will never see a true VW econo-box anymore.

chewy · May 8, 2008

The Polo Bluemotion would never get 70 EPA mpg. It's fuel economy wouldn't be all that impressive. The Fit gets 1-2 mpg better combined than the Civic while you would expect more improvement.

And the hatchback shape is very hard to sell in the US. Ask Saturn about its Astra sales.

SBAtdijetta · May 8, 2008

chewy said:
The Polo Bluemotion would never get 70 EPA mpg. It's fuel economy wouldn't be all that impressive. The Fit gets 1-2 mpg better combined than the Civic while you would expect more improvement.

And the hatchback shape is very hard to sell in the US. Ask Saturn about its Astra sales.

The Polo Bluemotion TDI....not that impressive fuel economy....

47 City 73 Hwy and this is US gallon figures not UK what is not to like about that.

Mike_M · May 8, 2008

SBAtdijetta said:
The Polo Bluemotion TDI....not that impressive fuel economy....

47 City 73 Hwy and this is US gallon figures not UK what is not to like about that.

GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME!

wolfskin · May 9, 2008

Blue_Hen_TDI said:
That's because VWoA marketing will always say the people want the car that makes the most profit/unit for VW.

That's why we got the $80K Phaeton and the $70K Toe Rag V10 and will never see a true VW econo-box anymore.

Therein might lie the essence of the problem. On luxury vehicles the margins are always higher, and VWOA can make money even selling in the currently depressed USD.
But in the small cars, margins are tight even when sold at EU prices, and there may simply be no way to offer them at an attractive $ price.
When you build a car smaller, the cost does not decrease linearly with the size. You still have to make it very strong, you still need to stuff it full of airbags, A/C, seats still need to fit a grown-up, the amount of testing in production is almost the same, etc..
It mostly needs the same parts as a big 2X4 SUV. Or even more, as the SUV is (erroneously) considered inherently safe by the buyers, while the small car must prove it with a wide array of safety devices.

But people do expect to pay little for a small car while willing to pay a lot for a big SUV.

Bayou_Flyer · May 9, 2008

chewy said:
Ask Saturn about its Astra sales.

Maybe if Saturn actually avertised, people would know it even exists (or many other Saturns for that matter)!

mike1161 · May 10, 2008

DRbillZ said:
Can the ECO in ECO.POWER be removed I don't want any car that says anything about ECO anything.....unless the ECO mean ECONOMY

Well the VW Golf Hybird TDI,that email came from VW.CA that is eco-power.

Thank you for your e-mail asking about Volkswagen hybrid diesels available in Canada. I appreciate your passion for fuel economy. It is my pleasure to share the latest innovation Volkswagen is developing with you.
I understand you are looking to know if Volkswagen currently has a diesel or biodiesel hybrid available in Canada. At this time, the diesel hybrid Golf is in development. The TDI Hybrid Golf is a concept that has a 1.2 liter 3 cylinder advanced diesel engine with an electric motor that produces no more than 89 g/km of CO2.
At this time, the Golf TDI Hybrid is only a concept car. There are no current plans to put this car into production. When more information is available, we will be sure to update our website. Please feel free to visit our website at www.vw.ca for more information on upcoming cars in Canada. If I may be of future assistance, please feel free to contact me by e-mail at www.vw.com or through our Customer CARE Center at (800) 822-8987. If I am not available, one of my associates will be able to assist you.
Sincerely,

Katherine Anderson

Tnx mike1161

Hot Georgia · Jun 26, 2008

A VW hybrid, plug-in hybrid and EV for 2010

http://www.riverwired.com/blog/vw-enters-hybrid-race

Volkswagen will have three hybrids, one of which will plug in, and an all-electric car in dealerships in 2010.

This is fantastic news, more vehciles with greater efficiency. I wonder what the price of the EV will be.

-Steve

chewy · Jun 26, 2008

Hybrid related. VW will be testing a plug in diesel Golf in 2010. It has lithium batteries, 88 horespower electric motor that's good for 31 miles. And a 122 horsepower 2.0 TDI with start stop/regenative braking. It's unclear if the two motors interact in some way.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/26/vw-to-fleet-test-twin-drive-golf-plug-in-hybrid-concept-in-2010/

Adam · Jun 27, 2008

TDI Gulf Plug-In Hybrid for 2010

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/06/vw-rolls-out-a.html

You know how we love plug-in hybrids around these parts, particularly if they're actually going to get built -- crazy, we know. Now it looks like Volkswagen is going to get into the game, with a "Twin Drive" Golf powered by a 122 horsepower diesel engine and 82 horsies of electric motor. The car should debut around 2010, and VW plans on spending $769 million on the project, helped along by a $23.5 million program put in place by the German government to help along such development. The car, which uses the electric motor for primary power, supplemented by the diesel motor and regenerative braking for extra juice, should be able to squeeze about 31 miles out of its Sanyo-developed lithium-ion batteries in all-electric mode.

Volkswagen's been toying with hybrids for awhile and got electric-vehicle advocates in a lather over the diesel-electric Golf it unveiled a few months ago. Now the company's promising a plug-in hybrid by 2010 and the German government's written a big check to make it happen.
VW boss Martin Winterkorn says gas and diesel engines will be around for a long time to come, but "the future belongs to all-electric cars." The automaker is staking a claim to that future with a plug-in hybrid drivetrain it calls Twin Drive. It will debut in a Golf fitted with a 122-horsepower diesel engine and an 82-horsepower electric motor.
"While the e-motor on a typical hybrid model just supplements the combustion engine, the exact opposite is true on Twin Drive," Winterkorn said during the car's unveiling in Berlin. "Here the diesel or gasoline engine supplements the e-motor."
Start-stop technology will save power and regenerative braking will help generate it. VW says the car will use lithium-ion batteries and have an all-electric range of 31 miles. The company recently signed a deal with Sanyo to develop li-ion batteries; the electronics company plans to begin production next year and says it will spend $769 million on the effort during the next seven years.
Winterkorn says VW will have a demonstration test fleet of 20 Twin Drive Golfs on the road by 2010, but there's no word yet on whether the car will see production. Still, Germany's Interior Ministry is eager to see plug-in hybrids on the road ASAP, so it's announced a $23.5 million dollar program to help VW and other automakers develop such vehicles within four years. Germany's environmental minister, Sigmar Gabriel, says there could be 1 million hybrids on the road in Germany by 2020 and 10 million a decade after that.

donfromnaples · Jun 27, 2008

Pray that the three of them make it to production and are sold in the U.S. My driveway would then have 3 VWs sitting there looking pretty.

Bush Hopper · Jun 27, 2008

VW hybrid?

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/06/vw-rolls-out-a.html

BleachedBora · Jun 27, 2008

Sounds cool, but why does it need a 122 hp motor? They could get by with a 56 hp 1.2L lupo engine just fine--it'd be light, efficient, and with the amazing torque of the electric motors it'd have lots of power too...
Oh well, it's a step in the right direction I guess...
-BB

donfromnaples · Jun 28, 2008

No it wouldn't. When the battery runs low on juice the diesel motor is working solo. With the Lupo 1.2L it would likely be too sluggish for most Americans/consumers. I think the larger engine has to be in place for when the batteries are being charged and the car is running only on the diesel engine.

Kabin · Jun 28, 2008

Looks like they're making a more sporty hybrid there. Smaller displacement engine would be do-able as the engine charges the battery over a period of time. From the looks of recent US auto sales sluggish is no longer registering as a negative.

dennisjs · Jun 29, 2008

It's probably the perfect city car for the masses. It will help reduce smog within the city limits and it is probably a good marriage of the two technologies. Hope we see it here.

II_Kings_9_20 · Jun 29, 2008

Adam said:
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/06/vw-rolls-out-a.html

You know how we love plug-in hybrids around these parts, particularly if they're actually going to get built -- crazy, we know. Now it looks like Volkswagen is going to get into the game, with a "Twin Drive" Golf powered by a 122 horsepower diesel engine and 82 horsies of electric motor. The car should debut around 2010, and VW plans on spending $769 million on the project, helped along by a $23.5 million program put in place by the German government to help along such development. The car, which uses the electric motor for primary power, supplemented by the diesel motor and regenerative braking for extra juice, should be able to squeeze about 31 miles out of its Sanyo-developed lithium-ion batteries in all-electric mode.

Volkswagen's been toying with hybrids for awhile and got electric-vehicle advocates in a lather over the diesel-electric Golf it unveiled a few months ago. Now the company's promising a plug-in hybrid by 2010 and the German government's written a big check to make it happen.
VW boss Martin Winterkorn says gas and diesel engines will be around for a long time to come, but "the future belongs to all-electric cars." The automaker is staking a claim to that future with a plug-in hybrid drivetrain it calls Twin Drive. It will debut in a Golf fitted with a 122-horsepower diesel engine and an 82-horsepower electric motor.
"While the e-motor on a typical hybrid model just supplements the combustion engine, the exact opposite is true on Twin Drive," Winterkorn said during the car's unveiling in Berlin. "Here the diesel or gasoline engine supplements the e-motor."
Start-stop technology will save power and regenerative braking will help generate it. VW says the car will use lithium-ion batteries and have an all-electric range of 31 miles. The company recently signed a deal with Sanyo to develop li-ion batteries; the electronics company plans to begin production next year and says it will spend $769 million on the effort during the next seven years.
Winterkorn says VW will have a demonstration test fleet of 20 Twin Drive Golfs on the road by 2010, but there's no word yet on whether the car will see production. Still, Germany's Interior Ministry is eager to see plug-in hybrids on the road ASAP, so it's announced a $23.5 million dollar program to help VW and other automakers develop such vehicles within four years. Germany's environmental minister, Sigmar Gabriel, says there could be 1 million hybrids on the road in Germany by 2020 and 10 million a decade after that.

Great info, why does everything take so long. Sure would be nice if all of this were planned for now.

kcfoxie · Jun 30, 2008

What about the VW 1L?

http://mobillacura.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/vw-will-sell-a-200-mpg-car-in-2010/

I am trying to figure out VWs strategy. I doubt we will get a Golf Hybrid in the US; it's not popular enough to really sell well.

Alternatively, SMART and similar minicars seem to sell in a niche. Since the 1L is a 282MPG two seater that looks like a small aircraft with clipped wings might just work; and its striking me as the spawn of the eco-friendly trike that VW concepted a few years back.

Now a Hybrid Tiguan and Jetta and perhaps even a Passat, I can totally see. It appears to me that Hybrid technologies work best in brining larger vehicles (which typically sell better here) into the economy range of the smaller compact cars.

All that said should they bring back the beetle with a TDI hybrid, I'd be first in line.

I've seriously had to think about what a 2010 VW 1L would be like; would I want to ditch the Jetta for it? I only really drive myself around; and we have the CRD Jeep for moving large things and/or people.

buckeye96 · Jun 30, 2008

VW to fleet test plug-in hybrid/Diesel concept in 2010

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/26/vw-to-fleet-test-twin-drive-golf-plug-in-hybrid-concept-in-2010/

VW to fleet test Twin Drive Golf plug-in hybrid concept in 2010

Volkswagen CEO Martin Winterkorn has revealed a new concept today called the Golf Twin Drive. The Twin Drive is a plug-in electric hybrid that uses a powerful 82-hp electric motor and a 2.0L turbodiesel producing 122 hp. The electric motor is fed energy from a pack of lithium-ion batteries that can sustain the car's mobility for about 50 kilometers or 31 miles, after which the diesel engine will take over propulsion duties. While we do know the Twin Drive also features start-stop technology and regenerative brakes, we're still a bit unclear on how everything works. From the way it's been described in the news and VW's somewhat vague press release that we've translated from German, the gas and electric motors are completely isolated, with one unable to provide the other assistance under heavy loads like in the Prius or a typical parallel hybrid. At the same time, the Twin Drive Golf doesn't sound like a series hybrid in the same vein as the Chevy Volt, as the gas engine (or diesel in this case) is directly connected to the drive wheels. In other words, the engine onboard is not simply a range-extending generator supplying power to recharge the batteries like in the Volt. What the Twin Drive appears to be is a plug-in hybrid with a very robust electric drivetrain that's forced to drag around an internal combustion engine in case it gets too far away from home. Regardless, when we find out exactly how Twin Drive works, we'll let you know.

Volkswagen is developing the Twin Drive system with eight German partners and is planning a trial fleet of 20 Golfs outfitted with the system in 2010. The German government is along for the ride, and for a good bit of green PR, VW promises the the electricity used to charge the fleet of test vehicles will be generated from renewable sources like wind and solar power.

sdean7855 · Jul 1, 2008

Golf Twin Drive Concept Car

This is the Volkswagen Golf Twin Drive Concept, and it looks even more promising than VW's late Golf TDI Hybrid from Geneva. Evidently, the Twin Drive can be run in electric-only mode for a range of up to 30 miles using an 82 HP electric motor. But, there's also a 2.0-liter turbo-diesel that makes 122 HP which can take over once the batteries have been drained. When the two powerplants combine, you become Captain Planet have a parallel hybrid with about 174 HP. The range is aided even further by regenerative braking to charge the batteries, and start-stop technology that shuts the engine off when idling in traffic.
http://jalopnik.com/397242/vw-golf-twin-drive-plug+in-hybrid-diesel-makes-prius-look-thirsty

LynnMcGuire · Jul 1, 2008

buckeye96 said:
From the way it's been described in the news and VW's somewhat vague press release that we've translated from German, the gas and electric motors are completely isolated, with one unable to provide the other assistance under heavy loads like in the Prius or a typical parallel.

It appears to be a parallel hybrid: http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2008/06/vw-golf-twindrive-174hp-94-mpg-plug-in.html

And they got 94 mpg on a test drive !

Lynn

sdean7855 · Jul 1, 2008

The Twin Drive is a totally different car from the Geneva Diesel Hybrid

Geneva Diesel Hybrid: turbocharged 75 HP 3-cylinder diesel, a 27 HP electric motor with a trunk-mounted NiMH battery, and a 7-speed DSG
http://jalopnik.com/363007/vw-golf-tdi-hybrid-combines-best-of-both-worlds
Twin Drive: 82 HP electric motor...[and] a 2.0-liter turbo-diesel that makes 122 HP
http://jalopnik.com/397242/vw-golf-twin-drive-plug+in-hybrid-diesel-makes-prius-look-thirsty
I was kinda miffed...this is new news and deserves it own front page posting, not just lumped in with the old news Geneva car...
'course others posted it first....

Curkkic · Jul 12, 2008

TDI hybrid.

attached is the link for reference

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2008/02/golf-hybrid.html

Volkswagen’s plans to build a diesel-electric hybrid version of its European Golf hatchback — known here as the Rabbit — are all but official. The Golf TDI Hybrid, set to arrive at next week’s Geneva auto show, will likely sport a 2.0-liter diesel engine coupled with an electric motor to the tune of 83 mpg, the UK’s Auto Express News reports. Wired magazine puts the mileage figure at around 70 mpg — still nothing to sneeze at — and says the car’s CO2 emissions will be less than that of a Toyota Prius or Honda Civic Hybrid.
All the goings-on of a typical hybrid should be present: aerodynamic enhancements to cut wind resistance, regenerative brakes to charge the battery and a drivetrain capable of puttering around at low speeds in electric-only mode. Volkswagen of America spokesman Clark Campbell wouldn’t share any official details, but he did say there are no current plans to bring the car stateside.
Autoblog reports that the transmission will likely be Volkswagen’s DSG double-clutch gearbox, of which we’re big fans. We’re also intrigued by the combination of a torque-rich diesel engine and a torque-rich electric motor — meaning this thing might really move from a stoplight. Naturally, we’ll start the drumbeat for Volkswagen to think about bringing it here.

tulsamal · Jul 22, 2008

I hope the part about it being a plug-in are correct.

I'm not a big fan of hybrids in general but it becomes a lot more interesting to me if I can plug it in when I get home. Then I start out with a full charge in the morning and it is just that much more likely that I will get through my town chores without needing the gas/diesel engine at all. IMO, that's the way all hybrids should be designed.

Gregg

German_1er_diesel · Jul 23, 2008

buckeye96 said:
While we do know the Twin Drive also features start-stop technology and regenerative brakes, we're still a bit unclear on how everything works.

It's not that unclear.

1) There's a TDI with a fixed-gear transmission (think 6th gear) and a clutch to the front wheels. So it can drive the car directly at high speeds

2) There's a motor/generator at the front, which can be clutched to the TDI to generate power at lower speeds (series hybrid mode) or drive the car with the TDI not running (EV mode)

3) There are in-wheel motors in the rear wheels

4) There's a big battery

So basically the TwinDrive is a plug-in series hybrid (à la Volt) with the added ability to function as a parallel hybrid when it makes most sense - at highway driving.

LynnMcGuire · Oct 21, 2008

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/225891/vw_golf_twin_drive.html

--- 10 pictures are on the article also ---

"Here’s the Golf’s not-so-evil twin! This is the Twin Drive – Volkswagen’s late, late ticket to the electric hybrid party. But it’s got a trick up its sleeve. The car is the first-ever hybrid to feature a diesel engine – and Auto Express has driven it!

There are only 20 Twin Drive prototypes in existence, but we got behind the wheel to give you the definitive verdict on VW’s clean, green derv sipper. And sip diesel it does. Bosses say this Golf returns 113mpg (imperial) – that’s more than twice what a 2.0-litre TDI can muster!

The unbelievable economy comes from the blend of a frugal 1.5-litre common-rail diesel and three electric motors: one in the bonnet next to the engine and one in each of the back wheels.

When travelling at speeds of up to 31mph, the Golf takes its power from the electric motors solely. But only if driven gently – the diesel motor will take over if the accelerator is pressed hard, providing a slug of extra power.

Beyond 31mph, the oil-burner kicks in as a matter of course, charging the battery and driving the car. At motorway speeds, the diesel provides the go.

Silent

Together, the electric motors and engine produce 175bhp. How does this translate on the road? Well, the Golf is eerily silent at start-up and travelling below the magic 31mph mark. It feels heavy, but rides well and handles with the composure you expect of the VW hatch.

The car weighs 250kg more than a 4MOTION TDI, although the fact that two of the motors are at the rear means the burden is spread evenly, so handling isn’t affected too severely.

Charging the Twin Drive is easy, with plug-in points in the front and rear bumpers. It takes four-and-a-half hours from a 220V source. VW says that costs about £1.40 at current prices, for around 30 miles of urban driving. Stop-start technology helps conserve the charge of the water-cooled electric motors in town.

So it drives well, seats four adults like any other Golf and has incredible economy. It’s just a pity VW isn’t putting it into production for seven years.

Rival: Toyota Prius
Say hybrid and the word Prius springs to mind. But oddball looks hamper its appeal, while many modern diesels now provide better fuel returns."

Geneva 08: Volkswagen Golf TDI Hybrid (US market in mind)

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