VW TITAN .216 or .234 size nozzles w/ vnt 15 turbo? What mods go with this setup

Texas_sky

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2001 GOLF TDI 2dr 5spd
I heard that you can use the .234 sz nozzles on the stock cars with tune. What are you opinions on this for some that have used them in conjunction with the oem vnt 15 turbo?


My set up will be the following,

vnt 15 oem vw turbo
stage 2 or 3 tune (td tuning in Vegas)
.216 or .234 nozzles

Sachs Vr6 clutch and OEM G60 FW
larger side mount intercooler
possibly a racepipe with pd 150 intake manifold
quiet performance exhaust if that exist...

any other recommended mods go ahead and post them up.


Thanks!:rolleyes:
 
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JC_1992

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2002 Jetta GLS, 2001 Jetta GLS
I had the Titan 520's (.216) installed this summer by Frank (Franko6). I am running a RC Stage 2 which was installed before the nozzles and I was never re-tuned. With WOT there is a decent amount of haze with my IQ around 2.2-2.5 (I believe). Been wanting to bump it up, but need to do the hammer mod to get it any higher and I don't have the triangular socket.

Hopefully this summer I will get re-tuned to a Stage 3.

I believe the Titan 520's can deliver enough fuel to bring the stock vnt-15 to its limits. The .234 would be overkill? Unless you plan to upgrade to a 17, 17/22, or larger.
 

Ben Dur

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I used .216 with my stock turbo, for months before i had it tuned. in a few days ill be using r520 with a stage 2 tune.

If you have them installed professionally and balanced(with vnt15 in mind) you should be happy with either at least for awhile.

I would recommend a clutch go ahead and get a stage 2 daily or stage 2 endurance SBC if you plan to go further. SMF setup. if you end up outgrowing it you will save a little next time on the flywheel.
There are other options aswell.

SBC
DC clutch systems
Spec (heard a little about them on TDI but have a great rep with gassers)
OEM+ options

the only thing is, TDI's tend to want more holding capacity than you expect
 
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LNXGUY

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You can run whatever you want on a stock turbo, that doesn't means it's going to run well.. Not very hard to overfuel a car with only a vnt15.. I dunno if I'd run anything much bigger then .216s.
 

Ben Dur

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im sorry i should have been a bit more clear.

ill be running r520 with plenty of bolt on additions including a vnt1752

but i ran 216 with a stage 2 tune for nearly a year. the end of my turbo was not egt damage.

216 would be my recommendation unless you are planning to upgrade turbos soon. with a vnt15, 216's should supply all the fuel you need even with a 10mm pump.

even after you upgrade turbos the 216's should supply plenty for at least a while.
 

Drivbiwire

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2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
The 1019 is also a great alternative, a bit less flow than the PP764 but very similar flow characteristics and durability.

Bosio Power Plus 764 - 52.89% above stock delivery
Bosio ULSD 1019 - 35.78% above stock delivery

The VNT-15 isn't an issue thanks to the 1650F rating of the turbine alloy. With a reduced flow setting we can easily keep temps well below that threshold and insure a very long life of the turbo, the only factor will become the management of boost (we can't control that with injectors).

We have found with most of our settings (below our Stage III) result in a lower TIT because of the more complete combustion. Some see a 200-300F drop despite an extra 20hp.

For us the key factor is smoke, the last thing we want is to trash a motor due to excessive soot. Generally a good target is an Opacity of less than 5 for most nozzles, and a maximum of 8 with a Race nozzle.

The reason is that the original nozzles were designed to deliver fuel much slower to reduce NOx, the faster flow allows a far better efficiency characteristic thus the lower EGT's and wasted energy out the exhaust ports.
 
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kenmaira

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I'm using the Titan 764 with VNT 15, noticeable power gain. Driveable with a bit of smoke when WOT
 

Texas_sky

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Fill me in with WOT? Sorry haven't gotten the hang of all the abbreviations on tdiclub. So what tune do you use kenmaira? I here you can tune them so they wont smoke as much when using a larger nozzle.



sent from asus eee pc st charles il :)
 

foxracer1

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98 A3 TDI 5spd, 86 w/TDI 02A in prog.
I have the Titan 764s in my 98 AHU Malone stg 3 tune, 10mm pump, larger than stock turbo(T25 from 2.5 mercedes), ported head, 2.5" turbo back exhaust, no EGR, IQ set around 3.8-4.2 light smoke down low then clears out and pulls good.

I'll be honest these injectors were for my other TDI i'm building which is not"stock". I got curious and stuck them in my DD and thought they might smoke like crazy but they perform well and get good MPG with my heavy foot. best of 54 with winter fuel and avg of 40.

These were just pop tested not "flowed". I don't feel these have enough fuel for my other engine. Might send them out and have them flow tested. See what that does.
 

Texas_sky

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so anyone else running bosio or titan .234 nozzles on a alh w/ stock vnt 15 ? if so what tune are you using in conjunction with the nozzles?
 

Drivbiwire

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The new Bosch CRI injectors are .117 but support 140hp, these flow more than the .234 Titans. Hole sizes are going down but flow volume is going up as well as reduced production variance nozzle to nozzle.

Hole size does not always mean a higher peak volume when it comes to high pressure high velocity fluids. The design and shaping of the holes determine the flow more than the diameter. Of course if you blow the tip clean off, hole size wins in this case :)

 
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Seatman

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so anyone else running bosio or titan .234 nozzles on a alh w/ stock vnt 15 ? if so what tune are you using in conjunction with the nozzles?
I'm running the PP764's on a standard turbo and no tune yet, hoping to get it this year. Smoke is a light haze at most but the extra torque is really nice especially uphill. It's funny actually, the other night my friend and I were out and about, he has the evry mod on his car. Anyway he switched it on and planted his foot, I gave mine a bit of foot in 4th and thrashed him lol, all his did was smoke. I get a nice even power all the way to 4500rpm.
 

Keebler145

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Just my plug here I guess. I have titan 520's and they dynoed identical to my power plus 764's. Both were tuned for acordingly and regardless of the tune adjustments neither varied from each other more than 5 hp. :confused::confused:

Take it for what it's worth but I would just find the BIGGEST hole nozzle and have it shimmed/tuned to what you need. You can cut fuel out hard to request more than the nozzle can provide though.

Not disagreeing with what Drivbiwire has to say on purpose, but I think the R520 nozzles with .260 diameter holes always perform better than the pp764 that are supposed to "out flow" everything and compete with race520's (or close to them)

I'm of the opinion now a day that flow is to some extent a lot of hogwash. Your fancy calibration tests are cute, but real world application where the fuel temp varies along with the pressure of the IP due to RPM your $$$$$ machine just doesn't seem to match the real life data =(
 
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robnitro

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The cr makes up for smaller size by running higher and more stable pressure. Also, the cr doesn't have to work against the pilot/main spring as it is piezo actuated. EDIT: Almost forgot, they run more holes on the CR too!

Also pressure ratio alone doesn't tell the full story:
Lets say we have CR 1500 bar, VE 1000 bar, and a guess of 150 bar avg in cylinder.
Without cylinder pressure CR is 150% higher pressure.
With differential to cylinder pressure (1500-150)/(1000-150) x 100 we get 158%, meaning that higher pressures help in the real world where the injector is injecting into an already pressurized cylinder.
 
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kenmaira

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so anyone else running bosio or titan .234 nozzles on a alh w/ stock vnt 15 ? if so what tune are you using in conjunction with the nozzles?
I spoke with Malone and he recommended that I go with a Stage 2 tune, and when I upgrade my turbo go to stage 5..... I do have a 11mm pump, so that might be a bit different for you.

-Dave
 

Texas_sky

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Due to the fact that I'm going to be running a stock turbo (for the time being) and stage two tune, I'm gunna go with the PP764's. Seem to have better real world results over the Titan Nozzles from the testing you guys have done.

thanks to all who have put forth their intuition and technical data into this topic... will be nice just to get this car out on the street and put the hammer down to see what a modified diesel machine can do!
 
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iCharlie

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2003 Jetta TDI -Alaska Green- (sold) 2005.5 Jetta TDI BRM
Hey guys! I'm wondering what Tune to go with. I also have Titan 520s (.216) injectors on my stock turbo and I'm ready to have it tuned now. What tunes are you all going with?
 

NewTdi

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Hey guys! I'm wondering what Tune to go with. I also have Titan 520s (.216) injectors on my stock turbo and I'm ready to have it tuned now. What tunes are you all going with?
Depending if you have other supporting mods I think that you can safely run a stage 2. The tuner of your choice will be able to set you up correctly once he knows what hardware you have.
 

Evgeniy K.

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Who say shat Titan 764 is 0.234?
I bought them this week, but they make the same fuel as my old 0.225 German "dieselcontor" nozzles. I see this because of boost i need to burn the fuel at the same fuel map settings. I made test 60-160km/h run - the result with Titan was not better, it was near the same but without any smoke. I To burn fuel with this nozzle i need 1.65 bar.

I wonder, or German seller ships me 0.240 or 0.260 nozzle (he had 225, 240 and 260 sizes), or this Titan 764 not 0.234 but smaller!
Any ideas?

(I edit this topic, because after 30 min ride with vag-com. Last ride was shorter and not so correct)
 
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robnitro

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2001 Jetta TDI GLS silver
If the titan is making the same power but without smoke, it may be bigger and better atomization of the fuel, but with smaller window. I dislike it when people compare nozzles at different smoke levels. Also, they say that they have to adjust the nozzles pop pressure to get them to flow a bit more than PP764.

From what I have seen, the Titan nozzles have a slightly bigger needle, more inertia for the injection event. Maybe this helps the nozzles work well in midrange but not top end. OR maybe these nozzles change the injection timing, so you may be getting less timing at the top end. There are too many variables to take account for with nozzles. What matters to me is the fuel econonomy and smoke level for a given power level!

I can say that they are leaps and bounds better than my bosio sprint .216 nozzles. Those nozzles were running very good balance too, but it may just be that my tune prefers nozzles in the size of PP764. I haven't balanced either set. The titans measure less than +- 0.30 on each nozzle in group 013!
 
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Midwesthick

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I am completely happy with my setup personally. Check out my signature for what I have man. I am soon doing FMIC not SMIC with 2in piping, and 2.5inDP w/ 2.5in catback and then prolly VNT17. The PP764's allow you to perform better as you upgrade the car, do it right the first time IMO :)
 

Evgeniy K.

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R520 it the right way i think. :)
I just ask about "why Titan764 are so small" because i compare it to 0.225 and feen no difference in power and cant see smoke at the same boost as i had with 0.225.

I think they are really 0.216 764 with some more needle volume.
 

robnitro

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It can be bigger than .225 and give same power but less smoke. That depends on the injection window and spray quality. That is why some people years ago when .205 was popular, were making same power as people with stock .184, but with less smoke. Also, they got better economy even though holes were bigger!

With the Titan, you might be able to change IQ to a lower number at idle to give more fuel, as I was able to do. I went from .216 to Titan764... from a bit of smoke to none, with IQ adjustment (hammer mod) I was able to get the same bit of smoke back by making the pump inject more, with an increase in power.

BTW, in previous posts Drivbiwire explained that the size of the holes don't explain everything. That is where pop pressures and injection windows come in, which are tuned by someone who balances injectors, like him or Frank06.
 

Evgeniy K.

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Something *** strange. After long time vag-com-log i saw, that actual boost are lower than requested, and full go-pedal was 2620-2670mbar.

I chipped before for my pre-0.225 nozzle, and actual were=request. Full go-pedal holds 2700mbar easy.

So, only one on my mind - this titan 764 are smaller?
Yes, it's nise for smoke-level, but they feels like "smaller".

the IQ with my old 0.225 and new titan 764 set to 6mgR, if i set 5 or lower - it make some shake with light load (example "AC on") at iddle.

As i wrote before, maybe i had bigger than 0.225 (0.240, 0.260 was on shop) because of blind-eye seller :).
who exactly test titan's by flow?
 
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