05 Passat, NO start when engine hot!!

demhaizar

Active member
Joined
May 31, 2005
Location
BFL, CA & SW, MI
TDI
Jetta TDI 2006, 328d X-Drive, 2015 Passat TDI SEL DSG
Hello all,
Let me give a history,.....
2005 Passat Wagon BHW TDI ~210,000miles, Automatic

BSM @ 190,000miles, along with timing belt, water pump, pulleys, alternator bearing, motor mounts and associated bits and pieces by Car-Doc in St. Louis.
Rebuilt Transmission by dealer @ ~200,000
Runs great, no issues except what the title states,
I have read the multitude of info on this problem that others had, and have done the following;
- replaced fuel filter
- replaced relay 219
- no leaks around the Tandem pump, and oil level is just right,(it was changed recently).

car starts without a problem when engine is cold/cool, NO start when hot/warm. what's up:confused: any thing else to check?

Thanks for reading my post....!!

Here is a full scan

Thursday,18,April,2013,18:03:31:64076
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.5
Data version: 20121222


Chassis Type: 3B - VW Passat B5
Scan: 01 02 03 08 15 16 17 19 35 36 37 46 47 55 56 57 58 75 76 77


Mileage: 338230km/210166miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 038-906-016-BHW.lbl
Part No SW: 038 906 016 R HW: 028 101 198 2
Component: R4 2,0L EDC G000AG 6416
Revision: 12345678 Serial number: VWZ7Z0D1024204
Coding: 0150034
Shop #: WSC 05311 000 00000
VCID: 234E537AE12FB4001CE

No fault code found.
Readiness: 0 0 0 0 1

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 01V-927-156.lbl
Part No: 3B0 927 156 CF
Component: AG5 01V 2.0lPD USA 0505
Coding: 0001104
Shop #: WSC 05311 000 00000
VCID: 6CDC78464C71BB78ED4

Part No: 3B0 927 156 CF
Component: AG5 01V 2.0lPD USA 0505

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 4B0-614-517.lbl
Part No: 4B0 614 517 G
Component: ABS/ESP front 3428
Coding: 04257
Shop #: WSC 05311
VCID: 254A4D62BF1B4A3072A

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 6Q0-909-605-VW5.lbl
Part No: 1C0 909 605 C
Component: 09 AIRBAG VW61 04 0003
Coding: 12345
Shop #: WSC 05311
VCID: 244C5066B421B338654

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 3B0-920-xx5-17.lbl
Part No: 3B0 920 929 C
Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRSP VDO V07
Coding: 15235
Shop #: WSC 00000
VCID: 2756476AC5175820406
WVWCE63B05E100141 VWZ7Z0D1024204

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
Part No: 6N0 909 901
Component: Gateway K<->CAN 0001
Coding: 00006
Shop #: WSC 00004
VCID: F0E4EC36B059DF9851C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 1C0-959-799.lbl
Part No: 1C0 959 799 C
Component: 80 Komfortgerát HLO 0004
Coding: 00258
Shop #: WSC 05311
VCID: 3776972A15B7C8A0D06

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1C1959801
Component: 80 Tõrsteuer.FS KLO 0202

Subsystem 2 - Part No: 1C1959802
Component: 80 Tõrsteuer.BF KLO 0202

Subsystem 3 - Part No: 1C0959811
Component: 80 Tõrsteuer.HL KLO 0202

Subsystem 4 - Part No: 1C0959812
Component: 80 Tõrsteuer.HR KLO 0202

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio Labels: 3B7-035-1xx-56.lbl
Part No: 3B7 035 180 G
Component: Radio PM6 0016
Coding: 00031
Shop #: WSC 05311
VCID: 244C5066B421B338654

No fault code found.

End ---------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Last edited:

vwztips

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Location
Greenville, SC
TDI
2005 Passat GLS Wagon TDI 5 spd manual w/BSM delete 2011 Tiguan TDI/DSG 2005 Audi A4 Avant 6MQ TDI 2011 BMW X5 35d
Fuel issue?
 

Mikey2

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Location
Europe
TDI
Passat 2002 grey
Have you checked that the coolant temp sensors show correct values ?
 

thundershorts

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Location
west chester pa
TDI
2015 passat tdi sel premium 2015 golf s tdi gls tdi b5.5, 2002 eurovan,Peugeot 505 td,Citroen cx25 prestige
fuel filter could be a source of an air leak, possibly due to a cheap unit, not bosch, mann or hengst quality
 

peiphil

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Location
Tignish PEI Canada
TDI
2005 passat GLS TDI and big old Dodge Cummins TDI
Mine done the exact same thing after I had done my BSM.
I dont have access to a vagcom so I just tried to watch very close with the cam timing etc.
Just like yours it would start up perfect cold but no way when warm.
I loosend the 3 bolts on the front of the cam and turned the cam anticlockwise ever so slightly.
A two foot long bar and socket only moved by a quarter inch.
Thats all it took and the car has worked perfect ever since
 

demhaizar

Active member
Joined
May 31, 2005
Location
BFL, CA & SW, MI
TDI
Jetta TDI 2006, 328d X-Drive, 2015 Passat TDI SEL DSG
Thank you all very much for the suggestions, I am posting screenshots from VCDS readout to maybe help........



The car was just started so the temp reading is low, and it started just fine.
If the battery was going bad, it should have low crank speed at least, It started with 2-3 turns of the starter.



Do you think the torsion value is okay?, should I attempt to adjust it to "0" or "-1", (maybe both) and see which setting works better.
When the BSM was done by Oil Hammer and crew, They checked the timing/torsion and it read "0" I saw it myself on the VCDS scan they did.
 

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
That torsion/timing value should be fine. I would not touch it.

Look at doing a log, a .csv file of MVB 005 while cranking when hot. That will tell us a lot.
 

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
After the engine cools, log a start attempt, please.

The following values are for interpreting MVB005 field 3. They are actually for a BEW PD, but a good working assumption is that they are the same for your BHW.

000
Basic initialization
001
Counter reset
002
Engine switched off or malfunction
003
Transitional states
004
Plausibility check phase
005
Plausibility check phase
006
Plausibility check phase
008
Plausibility check phase
016
Phase verification
032
Synchronization phase
033
System positioning
048
Calculation sequences activated
064
System waiting for engine stop
128
Dynamic plausibility check

I think that your engine is possibly seeing a difference in the crank and cam sensor, or is getting a bad signal from the crank sensor when hot.

A BEW cannot run without a crank sensor (on only the cam sensor), A BRM can. The BEW and the BRM can both run without the cam sensor. I have no idea about your BHW.

Note your MVB 004 field 4 value when hot running, just before shutdown, does it go to 0.0? If it does, that may indicate that the ECU is substituting a value in for the cam-crank difference - it does this when the sensors are not agreeing.

Try unplugging the cam sensor when trying the hot start. Log MVB 005.

Plug in the cam sensor, unplug the crank sensor when trying the hot start. Log MVB 005.

When the engine is cold do the same things, capturing the logs.

If you alter the name of the file (put hot no cam after the number but before the .csv) before you start logging it, then you can keep your data straight by using the different files.

I have seen several hot failures of the crank sensors, and they throw no codes. Not sure why. But I have added crank sensor failure to my list of "no code no start" potential problem list.
 

demhaizar

Active member
Joined
May 31, 2005
Location
BFL, CA & SW, MI
TDI
Jetta TDI 2006, 328d X-Drive, 2015 Passat TDI SEL DSG
My earlier post had incomplete data, some reason the snapshot only had part of the scan present, I did something incorrectly..... I don't know how to delete that post, anyways......Thanks again





 
Last edited:

peiphil

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Location
Tignish PEI Canada
TDI
2005 passat GLS TDI and big old Dodge Cummins TDI
My thinking when mine did this was the warm engine let the Cam timing belt expand just that tiny bit to let the cam and crank sensors get out of sync.
Your 4th line over called syncronization goes from 48 down to 2 when it wont start I see.
Is that reading cam to crank sense?
Also others have posted about the ecm being capible of making its own torque readings when the cam is timed wrong and the engine is aready runnimg.
What I did to mine would have changed the cam timing by less than one degree and took less than 5 minutes to do
 

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
Please put those screen shots vertically, when you get a chance, just put an "enter" button press after each one.

You can delet your other post, if you wish, by opening it to edit (which is awkward to do with the screen this wide - look far right on the bottom), then choosing delete (far right on the bottom of the edit screen.)

This is a data file from a BEW whose only problem was no fuel.
 
Last edited:

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
Phil, I don't think that would do anything in this case. If I remember correctly you did not know where you started from or where you ended up with on your cam to crank timing.

This one is showing almost perfect cam to crank timing when running. Stretching just a tad in either direction should have no impact on this one (it could if it were further off of nominal).

But I think that it is very likely that one sensor or the other is not able to restart after it gets hot. Probably the crank sensor.

But he can do the plug/unplug tests with minimal difficulty and complete reversibility. The adjustment is easy to do, but easy to get too far off as well. It may take several tries to get it back as close as it is now.
 
Last edited:

peiphil

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Location
Tignish PEI Canada
TDI
2005 passat GLS TDI and big old Dodge Cummins TDI
See you reposted very hard to read now but still looks like sync and torque changed at same time
 

demhaizar

Active member
Joined
May 31, 2005
Location
BFL, CA & SW, MI
TDI
Jetta TDI 2006, 328d X-Drive, 2015 Passat TDI SEL DSG
Thank you all,
I have edited and deleted the incorrectly posted data, and hit the 'enter' after the new shots, this should align them vertically.
I will attempt the sensor(s) unplug (location?) and test and click the turbo button to log as suggested.
 
Last edited:

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
These are the two plugs on the driver's side of your engine, sort of by the oil filter housing.

You can trace the wires to see which is which. The cam sensor is near the timing belt, the crank is near the transmission. The crank sensor wire usually loops down under the oil filter housing.
 

peiphil

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Location
Tignish PEI Canada
TDI
2005 passat GLS TDI and big old Dodge Cummins TDI
Sorry Dan was only trying to help
I have been a diesel mechanic all my life almost but not VW
Lots of German and English diesel overhauls through the years
I now own a Passat thus my presence on here.
I have OBD2 and fluke meters but live no where close to a vagcom.
My car runs really good and sounds real nice but like I said I just could not believe how that tiny adjustment made a night and day difference.
My car could have been just out of range in timing when hot I dont know but it would start perfect cold
When it was warm it would almost try to start but then fall back to a steady grind on the starter.
Minute later same thing.
Hour later start up turning barely once.
Like I said earlier I loosened the three i think 13 mm head bolts on cam and then turned cam with a 17mm i think socket with a 2 foot long breaker bar and it turns easy.
The bar didnt move a quarter inch out at that end of it.
Could that even be one degree?
Tightened the 3 bolts and engine started right up and has ever since.
Maybe my torsion value is still off but untill I can get a vagcom or access to one I wont know but this car of mine is super strong and quiet as well so I am not going out of province to pay somebody at a dealer for that simple check.
On a side note I have noticed that on gas engines of various makes the cam sensor will heat fail before the crank sensors will
 

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
Phil,
No need to say your sorry, no problem.
It will be interesting to see how close yours is if you ever do get it to a VCDS.

What you did was exactly what I would have done in your situation - with no VCDS.

It is interesting to note that if the sensors are really far apart, it will throw out the cam and continue to run. They have a problem when the cam and crank are right on the ragged edge of being outside the limits.

Just unplug the cam sensor, and it runs fine. It does take a revolution or two more to start when it does not have both the cam and crank sensor.
 

thundershorts

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Location
west chester pa
TDI
2015 passat tdi sel premium 2015 golf s tdi gls tdi b5.5, 2002 eurovan,Peugeot 505 td,Citroen cx25 prestige
Pickup coils like the crank sensor have a habit of giving first warnings of impending total failure by becoming a no start when hot such as you are experiencing.
 

demhaizar

Active member
Joined
May 31, 2005
Location
BFL, CA & SW, MI
TDI
Jetta TDI 2006, 328d X-Drive, 2015 Passat TDI SEL DSG
Following the suggestions this has been done so far, I was not able to get logs, sorry about that

1. With Crank Sensor unplugged cold "ENGINE WORKSHOP" warning displayed & NO START

2. With Crank Sensor plugged back in cold started like nothing wrong.

3. With Crank Sensor plugged in HOT no start.

4. With Cam Sensor unplugged cold started without a problem

5. With Cam Sensor plugged back in cold started without a problem

6. With Crank & Cam Sensors plugged in HOT NO START

I have a new crank sensor on order, and will be out of town for a week or so, will update as I troubleshoot further.
Thanks everyone for the input, it has been very helpful.
 

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
The logs are more for background info than to help you.
Maybe I could use them to better understand what the numbers in mvb 005 mean.

But I should plan to do that at a GTG sometime.
Maybe next week.
 

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
Following the suggestions this has been done so far, I was not able to get logs, sorry about that

1. With Crank Sensor unplugged cold "ENGINE WORKSHOP" warning displayed & NO START

2. With Crank Sensor plugged back in cold started like nothing wrong.

3. With Crank Sensor plugged in HOT no start.

4. With Cam Sensor unplugged cold started without a problem

5. With Cam Sensor plugged back in cold started without a problem

6. With Crank & Cam Sensors plugged in HOT NO START

I have a new crank sensor on order, and will be out of town for a week or so, will update as I troubleshoot further.
Thanks everyone for the input, it has been very helpful.
So this means the BHW is more like the BEW than the BRM. It makes sense, as they came out at the same time.
 

demhaizar

Active member
Joined
May 31, 2005
Location
BFL, CA & SW, MI
TDI
Jetta TDI 2006, 328d X-Drive, 2015 Passat TDI SEL DSG
Back from the little getaway.....and working on this again


Dont see where you tryed a hot start with cam sensor unpluged!

Cam sensor unplugged when hot = NO START

we have done this so far......

replaced the crank sensor with new unit - absolutely no change
replaced the tandem pump with new unit - absolutely no change:mad:

Thanks again for the help!!!
 

demhaizar

Active member
Joined
May 31, 2005
Location
BFL, CA & SW, MI
TDI
Jetta TDI 2006, 328d X-Drive, 2015 Passat TDI SEL DSG
Mine done the exact same thing after I had done my BSM.
I dont have access to a vagcom so I just tried to watch very close with the cam timing etc.
Just like yours it would start up perfect cold but no way when warm.
I loosend the 3 bolts on the front of the cam and turned the cam anticlockwise ever so slightly.
A two foot long bar and socket only moved by a quarter inch.
Thats all it took and the car has worked perfect ever since

I did adjust the timing from -0.5% to +1% which made no difference.

then readjusted it to -1% this resulted in hot start after a long crank, about 10-15 turns.:confused:

but the car shut off when it was placed in reverse and moved about 10 feet.:(

When I start it cold it will run for about 5-10 minutes, long enough to get warm/hot then shuts off. It starts within 1-2 turns when cold.

I think at this point we have addressed the fueling issue, if there ever was one. and will continue to look at other potentially possible causes.
 

thundershorts

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Location
west chester pa
TDI
2015 passat tdi sel premium 2015 golf s tdi gls tdi b5.5, 2002 eurovan,Peugeot 505 td,Citroen cx25 prestige
at cold start, the ecu throws in advance to aid in starting. you might try going to -1.5 even -2 to see if that makes a difference. that way you are adding more advance. btw, toes this vehicle have the 09 gp's with the related flash performed? something may be corrupted in the firmware. if it hasn't been flashed, then it should be.
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
btw, toes this vehicle have the 09 gp's with the related flash performed? something may be corrupted in the firmware. if it hasn't been flashed, then it should be.
Unless the OP is in the Arctic Circle now, GP's shouldn't be a total no start issue when warm. Heck, I had my GP relay disconnected for almost a year (waiting for the new GPs and a Jeff tune) with absolutely no starting issues with my 2005 BHW.
 
Last edited:

thundershorts

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Location
west chester pa
TDI
2015 passat tdi sel premium 2015 golf s tdi gls tdi b5.5, 2002 eurovan,Peugeot 505 td,Citroen cx25 prestige
Tony, the new firmware flash changes lots of parameters other than gp voltage. It could possibly correct what may be a corruption existing now.
 
Top