NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

dweisel

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Should be an easy swap. No?
NO! If you are talking about just swapping out the piston cup/follower. The new piston cup could actually wear out an old style pump bore FASTER than an the original piston cup. Its just not that simple.The hardness of both the pump bore and piston cup have to be compatable. Swapping out a Czech pump for and older revision pump shouldn't be a problem though.
 
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dweisel

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dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
I thought there was a passat that had a pump go due to misfueling ?
Yes,there was a 2012 Passat that was misfueled by the dealer and failed with just over 40 miles. 2Micron has a 12 Passat failed pump that also came off a car that was misfueled. I would think there are a few other misfuel failures,but those are the only two that I am aware of. NO failures have been reported here that have not been attributed to misfuels.
 

Niner

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Yes,there was a 2012 Passat that was misfueled by the dealer and failed with just over 40 miles. 2Micron has a 12 Passat failed pump that also came off a car that was misfueled. I would think there are a few other misfuel failures,but those are the only two that I am aware of. NO failures have been reported here that have not been attributed to misfuels.
4000 miles on my 2012 passat... B2 since the moment I drove it off the lot, with 17 miles on it. PS White thrown in also 3 to 4 oz per fillup, to keep the fuel dry. Most fill ups around 10-14 gallons at most. Have my fingers crossed, running a 6M and not revving it hard, or high or near redline, hopefully helps it last.
 

darrelld

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4000 miles on my 2012 passat... B2 since the moment I drove it off the lot, with 17 miles on it. PS White thrown in also 3 to 4 oz per fillup, to keep the fuel dry. Most fill ups around 10-14 gallons at most. Have my fingers crossed, running a 6M and not revving it hard, or high or near redline, hopefully helps it last.
I have 8000 now on my Passat and 18000 on my Jetta, usually buy the cheapest, Walmart, that I can find.

At my last Walmart fuel-up they now have a sticker that says 5% biodiesel. So now I have a cheap close 5% bio source, emailed their customer support about where the bio was sourced. The response was all bio had to meet the specs as described on biodiesel.org.

My experiment of running straight D2 with no additives in the Texas heat like your average Joe is over.
 

darrelld

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Yes,there was a 2012 Passat that was misfueled by the dealer and failed with just over 40 miles. 2Micron has a 12 Passat failed pump that also came off a car that was misfueled. I would think there are a few other misfuel failures,but those are the only two that I am aware of. NO failures have been reported here that have not been attributed to misfuels.
Sooo the next logical question is, does the new pump turn into an IED like the previous model?
 

Niner

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Sooo the next logical question is, does the new pump turn into an IED like the previous model?
An aluminum bore is an aluminum bore... starve it of lubrication, and it is a sacrificial metal, it's going to shed bits and pieces, everywhere. Does anyone remember the aluminum bored block failures from Chevy Vega's from the early 1970's? And that was with an oil batch for lubrication.

As long as the housing and bore are made out of aluminum, I don't see this being a fuel pump capable of 300,000 + or more miles before failure, not like the older Bosch VE pumps, pre common rail, like in our A4's.
 
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dweisel

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dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Sooo the next logical question is, does the new pump turn into an IED like the previous model?
LOL! Well there have NEVER been ANY EXPLOSIONS yet in any VW CR hpfp. Bad choice of words IMO. Total fuel system contamination,YES. EXPLOSION, NO.

I would suspect the Passat CR fuel system would be subject to the same fuel system contamination as the earlier VW CR's. As of yet we have not had a report here on the forum of a 2012 Passat CR having a hpfp failure that was not misfueled. Which is a good thing. Maybe Bosch has finally come up with the correct metallurgy to make this pump have a long service life. Only time will tell.
 

scdevon

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An aluminum bore is an aluminum bore...

As long as the housing and bore are made out of aluminum, I don't see this being a fuel pump capable of 300,000 + or more miles before failure, not like the older Bosch VE pumps, pre common rail, like in our A4's.

The CP4.1 has a steel piston. You realize that a steel piston has to ride in a bore made of another material besides steel, right? An aluminum piston riding in a steel bore is not an option for the CP4.1 pump due to the extreme duty cycle of the double lobe cam design. An aluminum piston would get the crap knocked out of it.

The bore is not aluminum because Bosch and VW "cheaped out". It's aluminum because it has to be aluminum.
 

Niner

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LOL! Well there have NEVER been ANY EXPLOSIONS yet in any VW CR hpfp. Bad choice of words IMO. Total fuel system contamination,YES. EXPLOSION, NO.
I would suspect the Passat CR fuel system would be subject to the same fuel system contamination as the earlier VW CR's. As of yet we have not had a report here on the forum of a 2012 Passat CR having a hpfp failure that was not misfueled. Which is a good thing. Maybe Bosch has finally come up with the correct metallurgy to make this pump have a long service life. Only time will tell.
It's still a fragment bomb, like a grenade, with a real slow fuse, that eventually kills the pump and the whole fuel system in short order. ;)
 

GoFaster

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An aluminum bore is an aluminum bore...
Not quite ... there are many, MANY alloys. Pure aluminum is not useful as a structural material. (Pure "substitute the name of any other metal" is generally not useful as a structural material.) All practical structural materials are alloys, and then there are countless choices plus many possible heat treatments plus many possible coatings on them.

Does anyone remember the aluminum bored block failures from Chevy Vega's from the early 1970's? And that was with an oil batch for lubrication.
Yep, and a good many modern engines use all-alloy "aluminum" blocks without the traditional cast-iron liners ... made of better alloys and with suitable cylinder bore coatings and finishes and with a better cooling system than the Vega had - the cooling system was a notorious weak point on those!

As long as the housing and bore are made out of aluminum, I don't see this being a fuel pump capable of 300,000 + or more miles before failure, not like the older Bosch VE pumps, pre common rail, like in our A4's.
Chevrolet Vega aluminum bore was a failure.

I know of a Kawasaki ZX10R motorcycle which revs much higher and makes several times as much power, with over 100,000 miles (not km) on it, and it has never been apart, and that's an aluminum-bore with coatings engine. Not a failure.

It's all in the details.
 

dweisel

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dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
It's still a fragment bomb, like a grenade, with a real slow fuse, that eventually kills the pump and the whole fuel system in short order. ;)
Nah,it just wears out and grinds itself to failure. No" fragment bomb" or grenade involved. I would agree that it "eventually kills the pump and the whole fuel system in short order." :(
 

scdevon

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Not quite ... there are many, MANY alloys.
It's all in the details.
I agree. The pump is not a "cheap" pump because it's made of aluminum. If anything, it costs WAY more to make it out of aluminum alloy than cast iron. Again, steel pistons don't like cast iron bores, so the choice is really limited if a steel piston is going to be used (I'm talking about the steel plunger piston directly above the roller follower). Furthermore, steel is the only realistic choice for the piston due to the extreme reciprocating duty cycle of the pump.

Bosch engineers are not dummies. They just f'ed up and assumed that the rest of the world had access to reagent grade Diesel fuel with high lubricity and tight quality control like they have in the FatherLand. I also think that there were quality control issues with early pumps and the piston-to-bore clearances (too tight of a bore clearance resulting in piston seizures regardless of fuel lubricity).
 
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Thunderstruck

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It's not really they screwed up by making unrealistic assumptions about fuel, the problem is they failed to perform due diligence to ensure their design was suitable for the market. Give a hundred of them to people on this site, ask them to wring the cars out and see if there are any issues.
 

bluey

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It's not really they screwed up by making unrealistic assumptions about fuel, the problem is they failed to perform due diligence to ensure their design was suitable for the market.
May not be either of those. Bosch data on lubricity and HPFP life is well known per the Bosch presentation. VAG knows what Bosch knows.

More than likely, the beancounters determined the cost/benefit of re-engineering vs warranty claims, perhaps without adding in downstream parts failures as a cost to consider.

It won't happen again, as VAG is being held to account by the NHTSA investigation.
 

GoFaster

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May not be either of those. Bosch data on lubricity and HPFP life is well known per the Bosch presentation. VAG knows what Bosch knows.
More than likely, the beancounters determined the cost/benefit of re-engineering vs warranty claims, perhaps without adding in downstream parts failures as a cost to consider.
... or the engineers made an assumption that North American fuel actually meets the standards set out for it, however lax those standard may be, and didn't account for "actual field conditions" occasionally giving lubricity considerably worse than specifications allow (and due to lack of enforcement, the situation never gets caught and no one ever gets penalized). It ain't like that in Germany. There, if there is a standard, you comply with the standard, or else. There is ample evidence that US fuel lubricity is all over the map with some of it not meeting the ASTM standards.
 

Niner

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There is ample evidence that US fuel lubricity is all over the map with some of it not meeting the ASTM standards.
One would think, then, that Bosch would engineer around this by using fuel as fuel, not as a lubricity agent for the North American market. Bosch has been warning CARB, whose standards they've had to meet for years, since 2002, about this... which is pointless, as CARB isn't the governing standard for fuel Lubricity in the USA, ASTM is.... so someone has been barking up the wrong tree for a long time, the fuel pump manufacturers. Please point out to us somewhere where the fuel pump manufacturers have requested a change in the ASTM lubricity standards of US D2 fuel to a standard much closer to EN590 for wear scar, perhaps even under 300, not 460 or 520 micron.
Back in the day, 30 years ago, bosch made hardened vanes and rings on their rotary pumps, on the low pressure side, to withstand harsh dry fuel, loaded with kerosene, or D1, in winter conditions in northern latitudes... much different from the material used in the USA. Now it's the US market that Bosch needs parts to last with dry fuel... not the Canadian.
Any problem can be solved if you throw enough money at it, engineering, material, and manufacturing wise. Bosch has been penny wise and pounds foolish on this. One wrongful injury or death judged by a sympathetic jury... and Bosch may be singing a different tune.
Fuels main purpose is to provide hydrocarbon energy, burn, and propel the car, not act as a primary lubricity agent. That is something the Germans have been trying to get... something for nothing. Free lubricity from fuel, so that they don't have to engineer in motor oil from the sump to lube the cam, bore and everything else, which is the norm on almost any piston driven type of pump with high cyclic rates. At 2000 rpm that plunger is doing 4000 cycles a minute, at 5000 rpm, it's doing 10,000 cycles per minute.
Lubricity was free for the taking in 5000 ppm sulfur diesel, a by product, that fuel pump manufacturers for diesels exploited. That is no longer the case today for clean diesel with 15 ppm max sulfur, the stuff that made the fuel slippery has been hydrotreated out of the fuel, the lubricity is no longer free... bad assumption on Bosch's part to design around something that is not there.
There is also the issue if lubricity additive agents will damage or shorten the life of the DPF filters.
4 years to solve the problem, with Bosch pointing fingers at misfueling, at water in fuel, at contaminated fuel, at fuel that doesn't meet lubricity standards... not once has Bosch owned up that it is a design, a material, or an engineering deficiency of their own creation, based on their incorrect assumption that fuel should do something besides burn and provide propulsion, it should be a lubricating agent. Bosch Plunger pumps on old Mercedes Benz diesels were lubricated by motor oil. So stout, they even seem to not be phased by running on vegetable oil.

Now the 155 E version of the pump is out on the 2012 passat... and the redesign of a 1.5mm longer stroke, different casting techniques, and lack of Diamond Like Coating on the piston, and finer polished RMS finish surfaces on cams rollers, and bores, all point to a more expensive pump to manufacture, in a country with cheaper labor rates than Germany, from Germany, to Slovakia... all point to Bosch building to a cheap price point for the first 4 years.

Now we have beta testers for Bosch driving around in 2012 Passats in the North American Market... and all VW and Bosch can ask for is that it makes it out of warranty by a reasonable margin, as defined by them, before failing and causing collateral damage to the whole fuel system.

Do you honestly believe that the new HPFP is capable of 300k miles before it wears out and contaminates the whole fuel system, using diesel fuel for lubrication in the current design? It should equal the potential of the motor.

Just my opinion, may or may not be factual.
 
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bhtooefr

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http://www.globaldenso.com/en/topics/091012-01/documents/common_position_paper.pdf

Note that Bosch is a party on that paper, and my understanding is it's not just aimed at CARB.

The main reason that the DFI manufacturers have lobbied CARB is, they want whatever they can get, and CARB gets to set their own fuel standards above and beyond the ASTM standards.

And, Canada isn't the whole solution - Canada's mandate is 460 um absolute max, as opposed to our 520-which-really-means-560, yes, but it looks like enforcement is just as lax as it is in the US. Somewhere on here, I read a study saying that Canada had fuel that was just as bad as the US's worst, despite the stricter spec. Basically, easier to get good fuel, but still just as easy to get rotgut fuel that meets nobody's spec.

I am inclined to agree, however, that the fuel-lubricated (and most of them this size are, although there are some very low cost designs intended to be driven by the engine camshaft - CRS 1.1 is an example, derived from the PF51 pump intended for single-cylinder industrial engines, repurposed to use a fifth cam lobe on a 2-cyl and to act as an HPFP) common rail system is the wrong approach for the US market. The system I'd like to see is a 5-injector system, with oil-lubricated pressure generation. Easiest way to do this would be to go to back to the 16v PD (which also has roller rockers, FWIW), but I really don't see that happening. (The 5th injector would solve any regen problems that the PD system presents, as well as potentially reduce EGTs going through the turbo, solving that problem that the CRs are having.)

Edit: The quick fix best bet may be to adapt the CB18 to handle 1800 bar and 2600 (or so) RPM operation, or the CB28 to handle the RPM. They're an oil-lubricated design based on an inline pump, designed specifically for low cost and for tolerance of poor fuel quality in the Chinese and Indian markets.
 
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bluey

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bluey, any problems with Bosch HPFPs on CR TDIs Down Under? What's your diesel fuel like, quality-wise?
Don't apear to be any major issues with HPFP premature failure, apart from possible misfuelling damage but nobody on the local forums has reported HPFP failure due to misfuel yet that I can find.

Lubricity of local diesel is 460. Cetane is min 46, typically closer to 50 claim the fuel companies. No high cetane diesel available from the pump. BP used to add a cetane improver to BP Ultimate Diesel, but silently deleted the cetane improver from the "Ultimate" additive package in 2010.

A few people are having DPF issues, which I think is probably caused by the smoke generated by the low cetane diesel. VAG specifies CN51 for DPF equipped vehicles. EN590 also specifies CN51, which is what the manual recommends for our Skoda Yeti 2L TDI.
 

kjclow

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One would think, then, that Bosch would engineer around this by using fuel as fuel, not as a lubricity agent for the North American market. Bosch has been warning CARB, whose standards they've had to meet for years, since 2002, about this... which is pointless, as CARB isn't the governing standard for fuel Lubricity in the USA, ASTM is..
Actually, ASTM does not set the specs on anything. It stands for American Standard Test Methods. They develop and publish the test methods that others use to determine the pass or fail for most anything that can or will be tested. The specification determination and setting is up to the governing agencies.

ASTM tests are extremely wide and variable and subject to extreme interpretation.

It's interesting that adding 1% biodiesel improved the wear scar rating around 200 points. After that, there was little to no additional benefit.
Thanks for that link. It's old data but it was still a good report.
It is fairly typically for additives to have a plateau effect. Adding 0.5% may move the scar rating by 100 points and 1% by 200 points but 1.5% will only add another 10 point reduction.
 

dweisel

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Actually, ASTM does not set the specs on anything. It stands for American Standard Test Methods. They develop and publish the test methods that others use to determine the pass or fail for most anything that can or will be tested. The specification determination and setting is up to the governing agencies.
ASTM tests are extremely wide and variable and subject to extreme interpretation.
It is fairly typically for additives to have a plateau effect. Adding 0.5% may move the scar rating by 100 points and 1% by 200 points but 1.5% will only add another 10 point reduction.
One important thing you have to remember about lubricity numbers. Lubricity is tested at 60*F. Our fuel in NOT at 60*F in an operating fuel system. It would be interesting to know how much lubricity is affected by higher fuel temps.

As far as the additives. I guess not only could you have a plateau affect by adding more than recommended,but maybe an opposite affect. Like when you increase the concentration of anti-freeze above 50 percent you actually reduce its cold temp protection. Pure anti-freeze and higher concentrations above 60 percent have a diminished affect and raise the temp at which it will freeze.
 
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kjclow

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One important thing you have to remember about lubricity numbers. Lubricity is tested at 60*F. Our fuel in NOT at 60*F in an operating fuel system. It would be interesting to know how much lubricity is affected by higher fuel temps.

As far as the additives. I guess not only could you have a plateau affect by adding more than recommended,but maybe an opposite affect. Like when you increase the concentration of anti-freeze above 50 percent you actually reduce its cold temp protection. Pure anti-freeze and higher concentrations above 60 percent have a diminished affect and raise the temp at which it will freeze.
My numbers were not meant to have meaning, just illustrative.

Your second point hits it right on the head. We have been shown that adding a certain percentage of an additive improves the scar rating, i.e. 1% bio, but what has not been looked at is the top limit of the additive. I have seen many posts on here where people say they are adding 2x or 3x the recomended amount without realizing the diminishing results on the additive or that the higher amount could actually be causing more harm. One thing to keep in mind is that most of the additives sold include surfactants, which in high enough concentration will cause foaming and may then stabilize foam. (Think of your dishsoap as an extremely high surfactant load.)
 

tdi90hp

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Ya...tend to agree...if the additive guys had an advantage in selling "more" stuff..they would take that opp. probably staying within their suggestions is the best thing to do. I fill with 4oz of PS. never double dose.
 

Niner

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Ya...tend to agree...if the additive guys had an advantage in selling "more" stuff..they would take that opp. probably staying within their suggestions is the best thing to do. I fill with 4oz of PS. never double dose.
Likewise here, 4 oz, every 12 to 16 gallons, though with the Common Rail, I prefer the white bottle, not the gray bottle.
 

sgoldste01

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Likewise here, 4 oz, every 12 to 16 gallons, though with the Common Rail, I prefer the white bottle, not the gray bottle.
Please explain what the white-bottle formula and having a CR engine have to do with each other.
 
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