Apparent intercooler icing issue (x2), dealer no help. Whats the suggestions?

DZL_Damon

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Got a knock on my buildings door at work from the woman I performed her 40k mile maintenance on last week for her 09 JSW TDi. She didn't seem happy.... car would not start.

I tried starting it. Acted like battery was dead, cranked 1/2 a rev, then stopped with all lights going out. Felt like when I hydrolocked my Jeep and had to blow water out of the spark plug holes.

Anyway, I thought I had heard of this intercooler icing issue. I offered her my car since I was paranoid somehow this was my fault. Tried to start my car.... same thing. At least I was off the hook for messing up her car, but now I have 2 TDi's to get running.

Dropped her belly pan and saw lots of oily watery liquid on the belly pan right under the intercooler that was NOT there last week when I did the maintenance. Removed her intercooler and found evidence of water/oil, but it had been sucked up already. A few drops came out, but most of it was elsewhere. We kept trying.... engine came to a stand still and would not rotate anymore. Wait for 1 minute and it would rotate another revolution or so... I'm assuming it was hydrolocked and the water was bleeding past the valves, or worst: past the rings into the oil sump!

Anyway. Got hers going, and started working on mine.... Dealership was called and was told since I was at 47,000 miles that this was not a warranty item! Apparently I have to take care of this myself. Any tricks? I already have pipe insulation on the lower section of the grill. This infuriates me that the dealership thinks that an engine full of water is not a power train item? Apparently I must throw a rod before they care? Any tips to make that happen?

Seriously, any tips to help the icing issue. I am NOT buying a part from VW to fix their own design flaw. This is the only intercooled turbo diesel I've experienced this with!!
 

Mike in Anchorage

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How's your temps and humidity been. This seems to occur around the time when it's slightly above freezing and humid. 4°C rain is prone to causing it. I'm certain there are threads from just before Thanksgiving last year with the same issues. I wish I could help more, but I haven't experienced it.
 

DZL_Damon

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Warm the evening before (above freezing). 7*F the next morning on our drive in to work. During work, temps worked back up to 40*F and that's when it happened.

Similar styled weather when this happened to me last week. Below freezing on my way to work, then got above freezing when I went to start it for my ride home.
 

tightlines

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DZL: Had same symptoms last night when I was leaving work in Boston. Car finally turned over after 15 minutes... Spoke with VW Service Manager @ Seacoast VW in Portsmouth, NH. He had several similar calls earlier on Monday. Apparently there is a kit available to remedy, but it's on back order from VW. In the meantime, there's a temporary 'fix' (disconnecting intake hose to intercooler). Dealer took me right in this AM. Hope this helps...
 

tdiatlast

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Is forcing your engine to start the smart thing to do under these circumstances? Isn't the risk of serious damage very real?
The CR start-up is SO instantaneous (I think about low-oil pressure issues...there's a PD here with 250k+ miles...claims his cam life was extended because of very infrequent start-up), if mine ever fails to start, I think I would be hesitant to force the issue.
 

RebelTDI

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I had 2 hard starts yesterday in my Golf, first thing in the AM when it was 20 F and leaving work. Turned over easily, but sputtered and stumbled for several seconds. Required a little throttle to keep it going, then, ran perfectly smoothly. Same thing happened at the end of the day, but the car never was below freezing during the day. Today, it was 44 F in the AM and no issues. Don't know if this was IC related. Is there any consensus on whether all CR owners in northern climates should get the IC "fix"?
 

rjdio

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Is there anything we can do to avoid this in the known bad conditions? Like a WOT blast, say down an on-ramp or something? Clean stuff out before shutdown? Or does it really not matter what we do?
 

740GLE

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In the meantime, there's a temporary 'fix' (disconnecting intake hose before the air box). Dealer took me right in this AM. Hope this helps...
Corrected, disconnecting anything to the IC will result in multiple codes and MIL to be tossed (loss of boost)
 

740GLE

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BTW sounds like VW is forcing you to bend a rod and have them replace everything under warranty!

How could VW wave off any warranty claim due to hydrolocking with this known TSB and lack of action on their part.

BTW contacting Baranger VW in Rochester NH might be worth a shot, they installed my TSB IC kit after I reported this issue at my 10K and 30K. Kit was installed at 45K as it was finnally available as a TSB.
 

740GLE

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Is there anything we can do to avoid this in the known bad conditions? Like a WOT blast, say down an on-ramp or something? Clean stuff out before shutdown? Or does it really not matter what we do?

Blocking off the IC with piping might help a bit, but OP states he still has issues. If the IC can't get below freezing ice can't form.

Other end of the spectrum, Idling a bit before shut down might help warm up the IC to melt a bit of the ice, but not sure.

Deleting EGR is always an option but not a cheap one.
 

2010TDI

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Hard to tell who should get the 'fix' and who shouldn't. I'm of the opinion that everyone should get it as its a known issue with a known 'solution.' Limiting installation of the cold weather IC kit only to those who live in cold climates does not make much sense to me. What about all those other people who live in climates slightly more mild yet spend a lot of time during the winter in colder climates... i.e. ski season.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=302863
 

Rather Be Biking

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Is there anything we can do to avoid this in the known bad conditions? Like a WOT blast, say down an on-ramp or something? Clean stuff out before shutdown? Or does it really not matter what we do?
Yes. Block off your lower grill with foam pipe insulation when the weather is below freezing. I had a few of these hydrolock situations, all during the same freeze thaw cycles you describe. That was back in 2009. I've blocked the lower grill since then and have not had a problem. Finally got the new IC kit installed this October. Blocking the lower grill blocks some freezing air to the intercooler, but leaves it cool enough, at least when the temp is below 40F, to do its job. The engine also warms up quicker. I'll probably put them back in this year, but right now I'm testing the IC kit for effectiveness.
 

Nickofari

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Add me to the list of those suffering a no-start condition. It has become an annual event for me now (3rd year in a row) when temps fluctuate - humid/cold/rain/etc.
Called dealer in Manchester, NH who said there were 3 TDIs in the shop having the intercooler and hoses drained. He didn't mention a "kit" from VW to fix this. Does anyone have a part # or other reference?
Any way to remedy this at home (w/out) flatbed to VW?
Thanks.
 

DZL_Damon

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Yes. Block off your lower grill with foam pipe insulation when the weather is below freezing. I had a few of these hydrolock situations, all during the same freeze thaw cycles you describe. That was back in 2009. I've blocked the lower grill since then and have not had a problem. Finally got the new IC kit installed this October. Blocking the lower grill blocks some freezing air to the intercooler, but leaves it cool enough, at least when the temp is below 40F, to do its job. The engine also warms up quicker. I'll probably put them back in this year, but right now I'm testing the IC kit for effectiveness.

My lower grill was blocked off for about a week before this happened

Today is day 3 of VWoA not having any phones that work :mad:!!!!!!!!

I did remove both her's and my intercooler hose AFTER we started having issues. A few drops came out, but I think the majority of the fluid already was sucked into the engine at that point.

To make matters worse: Now I have a frothy mixture under my oil fill cap, and so does she. I'm guessing what happened was this: We crank and get about 1 revolution.... 30 seconds later, that pressure that built in the cylinder finally bled out (past the rings, into the crankcase) and allowed us to rotate the engine 1 or 2 more times. Repeat


By the end of it, it finally turned over fast just like it should. I had to crank and hold about 30 seconds until 1 cylinder caught, then 2 or 3, then rough idle and it cleared up. I assume the long cranking was due to the little bit of water in the cylinders were absorbing the heat of compression and evaporating off. Then the temps got high enough to start combustion.

I guess I have to look into how hard it is to pull glow plugs/injectors, crank to blow out the fluid, then try again. Putting water in my oil is by NO means acceptable!!
 

VarmintSlayer

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I have had this 2x on my 09.

First time was less than 3 months since purchacing it brand new.
Second time was the following year.

Both times the weather had been below freezing, but with slushy road conditions that prevented any chance giving the car a good run.

No issuses last year running with a non fuctioning exhaust flap, keeping fingers crossed for this year.

Was wondering if it would be a possible fix, to tune out the lp egr under below freezing conditions.
 

DZL_Damon

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Add me to the list of those suffering a no-start condition. It has become an annual event for me now (3rd year in a row) when temps fluctuate - humid/cold/rain/etc.
Called dealer in Manchester, NH who said there were 3 TDIs in the shop having the intercooler and hoses drained. He didn't mention a "kit" from VW to fix this. Does anyone have a part # or other reference?
Any way to remedy this at home (w/out) flatbed to VW?
Thanks.

Found elswhere: "There's now a TSB with a fix for this. It's number 21 11 01 / 2025464 dated May 24, 2011, titled "Frozen Charge Air Cooler – Engine Will Not Start". It calls for installing a 1K0-198-803-B Cold Weather Intercooler Kit.
"
 

740GLE

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21 11 06 September 06, 2011 205464 only modified warranty table and labor operations clarification.
 

740GLE

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Baranger VW in rochester NH did mine, just make sure to double check you HP AC line isn't rubbing the serp belt, I had to make a trip back for a new hose and fresh charge of the AC system for that mistake on their part.
 

DZL_Damon

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Did they charge you, or is this a warranty item? I'm at 47,000 miles, so still in my powertrain warranty. I very much consider a "no start" scenario followd by water in my crank case to be a powertrain item.... one woman at the dealership didn't seem to think so though!!

The wording of that TSB you just posted sounds like the frozen ice is blocking the hoses, which I do not believe is the case at all at least for my situation: It seems like the water from the egr (I assume fro being a byproduct of combustion and then cooled below dew point) will get in the intake air in a normal situation. Usually it is consumed by the engine in a non harmful manner while constantly blowing in a small amount. However, when it's 7*F it is freezing in the intercooler and building up a small sheet of ice. When I park, and the temp goes up outside (or even heat of the engine melts it) that water puddles in the lower hose. When I start it... it runs for about 5 seconds, and the water is sucked in and it sputters and shuts off.

Is this what was happening with you 740GLE? Other than some tuning changes (I assume with the EGR), what else is really DONE?
 

tdiatlast

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I'm at 50k miles. I just spoke at length with my serv. advisor. He is willing to submit a claim, based on my assertion that I've had a cold-start problem, with symptoms posted here (I had one brief cold-start scare last year...). It would then be up to VWoA to decide whether or not they'll pay for the modification.

He says the system is NOT set up for anyone to come in and simply ASK for a TSB to be performed. He is reasonably confident, since geographically we're on the "freeze line", that VWoA will step up and pay for the modification, although he claims that his dealership has NOT installed a kit yet.

I won't get to this until after the first of the year, though, as I'll be on the road in my Toyota Tundra...wish it were with my new Passat, but...well...it can't tow our 3k lb. boat/trailer!
 

DZL_Damon

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UPDATE: I was into my local dealership in Bangor Maine for my fuel line recall. I was talking to the wrong people the last 2 times I was on the phone with them. I described my issue to one fellow while I was there, but he could not find the TSB. I luckily printed out the one in this thread. Once he read it and entered it into the computer... it showed up??!! The service manager (new one since the last time I was in), spoke up and knew exactly what I was talking about. He said 4-5 of them have turned up since last week. They thought I would have to pay for it myself though. I said I was quite concerned with water getting into my oil, no start conditions, and possibility of bending rods.

He promised he would contact VWoA and see what he could do. He called me back in an hour and told me they promised to buy the kit and install it free of charge. I did however, write a formal complain issue to VWoA the evening before since their phones have been down for about a week. Perhaps it's related? i'm advising the 2 other people at my work with 09-10 TDi's about what to do. I told the dealership while I was there that this has happened to them as well and they said they would look into their issues with my description when they called. So far, I'm quite happy with the response I've gotten from Darlings in Bangor, ME since I started talking to the right people. I don't believe they were trying to hide anything, they honestly didn't know for some reason!

VWoA just called me a minute ago. The woman said she had not heard of this issue at all, but then confessed that answering complaints about failures and problems was not her usual job. The phone system there had collapsed apparently when they moved their call center. I didn't think that was a good reason to record a message saying there had been an "Emergency".... and later it was changed to "technical difficulty", but that was not her fault so I didn't say much. Anyway, I asked her if a full recall would be done for cold weather cars, but she didn't seem to know since "the dealership seemed to be taking care of it". Well, at least I TRIED to do my part to move this along.
 

El Dobro

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VWoA just called me a minute ago. The woman said she had not heard of this issue at all, but then confessed that answering complaints about failures and problems was not her usual job. The phone system there had collapsed apparently when they moved their call center. I didn't think that was a good reason to record a message saying there had been an "Emergency".... and later it was changed to "technical difficulty", but that was not her fault so I didn't say much. Anyway, I asked her if a full recall would be done for cold weather cars, but she didn't seem to know since "the dealership seemed to be taking care of it". Well, at least I TRIED to do my part to move this along.
Maybe their phone system has an intercooler.
 

MyAvocation

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Where's the lowest point of the IC duct (rubber hose or plastic tube)? My thinking is a cheap workaround is to tap a 1/2" fitting in the IC with 6-10" of hose to collect the water and have an easy to reach drain spigot or plug. We use a similar setup on snowmobile carbs to trap water.
 

El Dobro

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It would work ok for the water, but the goop could be a problem.
 

El Dobro

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Not really, that is if you drain it with the engine running. Might goose the throttle a few times to aid in blowing out the goop.
I would say only if the goop settled where the fitting was placed. In my case, the goop was all over the wall of the hose and the plastic ducting. I used to push rags in and out to clean it.
 

D-Cell_Mekanick

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I would say only if the goop settled where the fitting was placed. In my case, the goop was all over the wall of the hose and the plastic ducting. I used to push rags in and out to clean it.
The only logical place (at least in my opinion) would be the lowest point of the system. As for the goop, it will settle out eventually, that's the great thing about gravity!
 

DZL_Damon

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I thought about doing a drain, but feared it could freeze up and crack as well. Plus, I don't want to have to have my daily start up proceedure to include getting on the ground, opening a drain, start the car, blow it out, get on the ground, close the drain, brush off, THEN I can drive!

I'd do such a thing in a 20 year old truck that I had fooled around with the engine (and is all my fault if it doesn't work right), but my stock car that I paid $30k for after payments were done and has less than 50k miles should be done by the manufacturer! Luckily they seem to be stepping up to the plate for me, but I'm concerned they might no be stepping up to the plate for EVERYONE yet.

I think I'm also going to block off a few more air vents on the front of my car. I only did the lower middle half. There is still a 1" gap at the top on either side of the license plate, and the ones on each side under the headlights as well channel some air I think. Still plenty of air travel throught the radiator of the original "grill" that I could block some off as well. Anyone blocked the entire grill?
 

Mike in Anchorage

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I thought about doing a drain, but feared it could freeze up and crack as well. Plus, I don't want to have to have my daily start up proceedure to include getting on the ground, opening a drain, start the car, blow it out, get on the ground, close the drain, brush off, THEN I can drive!

I'd do such a thing in a 20 year old truck that I had fooled around with the engine (and is all my fault if it doesn't work right), but my stock car that I paid $30k for after payments were done and has less than 50k miles should be done by the manufacturer! Luckily they seem to be stepping up to the plate for me, but I'm concerned they might no be stepping up to the plate for EVERYONE yet.

I think I'm also going to block off a few more air vents on the front of my car. I only did the lower middle half. There is still a 1" gap at the top on either side of the license plate, and the ones on each side under the headlights as well channel some air I think. Still plenty of air travel through the radiator of the original "grill" that I could block some off as well. Anyone blocked the entire grill?
I've blocked the entire upper grille and my license plate blocks a goodly portion of the lower grille. I have not had any intercooler icing problems so far. Some summers I even forget to take the upper grille block off & all is working fine. Of course it's a VERY rare day that the car will see ambient temps over 23°C, so the environment is ok with my forgetfulness. I'll try to remember to get a pic in here of the blocks.
 
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