Real-World Testing: Round 2

DubFamily

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Swan Point, MD
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2014 BMW 328D xDrive
Greetings all!
Back again; with the release of Opti-Lube XL I decided I wanted to get some of it, since it seems to be the best lubrication for diesel currently out there. As I was getting some anyway, I decided I would do another round of testing with this.
I am not going to go through my testing procedures again, you can find them in the first 3 posts here if you want a refresher: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=383811, this round of testing I'll be doing 1 tank each of Opti-Lube XPD, Opti-Lube XL, Power Service Diesel Kleen, and a tank of straight diesel for comparison.
The one thing I've changed for this round is this: Last time I knew what product was in each bottle... So this time I've provided the materials to a friend of mine, who is also a diesel enthusiast (trucks), and asked him to provide me the bottles prepared to add to my tank but without knowing what is in each.
About two weeks ago I received my gallon of XL; and a few days ago I provided this to my friend:

The diesel is to top off each bottle so no guesses as to dosage can be made either. He just put the correct dose rate for 15 gallons in each bottle. However, yesterday he told me he had prepared the bottles, but because the bottles I provided were clear, the differences between each bottle were obvious... So I gave him 4 XPD 8 ounce bottles instead, and today I received this:



So I'll be starting "A" with my next tank of fuel, and we'll see what happens. ;)
 

tditom

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looking forward to seeing your results. Thanks for taking this on.
 

Cogen Man

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Kingston, Ontario, Canada
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2011 Golf TDI DSG.
Also anticipating the results Jason. You the man. ;)
I've gone from XPD to Diesel Kleen. Liked the XPD just too hard to get.
 
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ISurvivedNMU

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Michigan
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2012 Passat SEL
Should be interesting as the weather is cold in the morning and warm in the afternoon, so a good mix for driving and testing.
 

tikal

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Location
Southeast Texas
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2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
I really like the process approach of this round two of testing. A little bit more scientific I would say. It might take a little bit of the placebo effect out or balance it across the trials. I have not tried any of the Opti-Lube additives yet but I am in conversation with some TDI drivers to see if they would like to do a group buy (probably XL flavor).
I will curious to learn if the driver can tell the difference in terms of 'feel' of the car or sound of the engine.
Thank you very much Jason for the effort!
 

Sigforty

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What dosage rate for XL will you be using? Are you going to dose at the recommended and say one closer to XPD? I noticed in the Opti-Lube XL testing they did two dosage rates.
 

DubFamily

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Swan Point, MD
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2014 BMW 328D xDrive
Each bottle has the dose rate for 15 gallons of diesel. It isn't 100% accurate for my tank size, but it is the closest easy measurement and I tend to run mine as low as I can so it should be close to that.
 

Sigforty

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Each bottle has the dose rate for 15 gallons of diesel. It isn't 100% accurate for my tank size, but it is the closest easy measurement and I tend to run mine as low as I can so it should be close to that.
You may want to later try the increased dose rate for the XL.
 

DubFamily

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After my first round of testing where I did a double dose test on 3 additives, I don't think it will really do anything different,.

FYI all bottle A goes in today; I have ~10miles to empty and can hopefully make it to the station before I run out... :D
 

ISurvivedNMU

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Michigan
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2012 Passat SEL
It was cold this morning and I thought about this test. How is it going and can you get through it before the weather effects it?
 

DubFamily

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I apologize for the delay folks; I've just started back to school to complete my Masters and I am trying to get back into it, so time has been tight...

Weather is holding pretty steady overall so far; I am done with bottle A, bottle B is in. Planned to report this today:

Bottle A: 567 miles, 14.072 gallons, 40.29 mpg

It was a little cool this morning, but I don't think overall it will be a big hit. Due to the length of my drive overall temperature doesn't seem have much effect until it drops below about 40 degrees.
 
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MarkAardvark

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Location
Roseville, CA, USA
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2014 Passat; 2014 Jetta
993er: What DubFamily said earlier in the thread was:

"The one thing I've changed for this round is this: Last time I knew what product was in each bottle... So this time I've provided the materials to a friend of mine, who is also a diesel enthusiast (trucks), and asked him to provide me the bottles prepared to add to my tank but without knowing what is in each."

To preserve the blind testing, he shouldn't know which product was which until he has used them all.

Do these additives yield an improvement in MPG is the question, and granted, this is a short-term test of a tankful of each product.
 

993er

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Do these additives yield an improvement in MPG is the question, and granted, this is a short-term test of a tankful of each product.
There are far too many factors involved.

In fact, you would have to run the tests in a chamber under the same conditions (load, temperature, humidity, pressure, etc)
 

993er

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993er: Read his initial post and thread: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=383811

He explains very clearly his objective.
Don't have that much time, but I did look at the data in post #3.

Again, for this to be meaningful, you'd have to run the same exact way every single time which is why correctly run lab testing is better.

I'm a hard sell having worked in labs and seeing how some tests were incorrectly performed.
 

ISurvivedNMU

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Don't have that much time, but I did look at the data in post #3.

Again, for this to be meaningful, you'd have to run the same exact way every single time which is why correctly run lab testing is better.

I'm a hard sell having worked in labs and seeing how some tests were incorrectly performed.

If you don't have time to read it, don't take the time to criticize his work.
 

993er

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If you don't have time to read it, don't take the time to criticize his work.
Did he run it in a controlled environment. I think not. I am not citicizing, I am questioning...pardon me. :rolleyes:

One thing about forums...lots of BS on them like oil threads etc.
 

993er

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Unless you are offering up time in wind tunnel, how do you propose he does this testing?
You don't need a wind tunnel.

The testing is absolutely pointless unless he is on the same non-stop section of Interstate, preferably away from major centers and ring roads and varying traffic. Then you want a no-wind condition and the same atmospheric pressure, temperature, humidity every single time. And on top of that, you want to run off a fuel tank that holds the same amount of fuel every single time.

I take mileage measurements all the time for all my vehicles. My TDI tank holds 55 liters. All I have to be off from one fill-up to the next is 1 liter (easy to do) to give me an almost 2% difference. That is just one factor...now go and add some other factors into the equation and you have an even greater difference.

Have we taken the cost of the product into account and compared it to the extra mileage if that is even the case?
 

993er

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Where exactly do you propose he find this "EDEN" of testing?
I already told you and if you cannot test under those conditions, then these numbers are meaningless!

constructive criticism.
I'm giving you constructive information. If you can't see a fault in a method of testing, then I cannot help you other than point out flaws in it.

And I never said he was selling anything. Don't start implying things either!!!!

Believe what you want. As they say, the internet is the greatest source of unconfirmed information.

Now do you want to start talking about batteries and battery chargers? I can relate a thread on another forum that is hilarious. You would not believe the crap people come up with on forums.
 

993er

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If you took the time to read the other thread you would be aware that the OP and everyone else is FULLY aware of the limitations of his methods.
Good, we are clear on that now. I am FULLY aware that the numbers do not mean much then. ;)

Just so that you know, a measurement without an uncertainty in the measurement and science/engineering world is not valid. Something like this: 44.5 ± 2.8 MPG.

Usually when I get on the net, I want to walk away with valid information.
 

tditom

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Location
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formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
^^^^^^^time to let go, guys. You don't need to have the last word.
Moderators please clean this thread up if walt & 993 don't. Thanks
 

DubFamily

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Location
Swan Point, MD
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Don't have that much time
Then don't bother posting :rolleyes:
I'm a hard sell having worked in labs and seeing how some tests were incorrectly performed.
All of your arguments were already covered ad-nauseam in my first round of testing. If you can't be bothered to actually read that, then at least have the decency to refrain from rehashing all of it...

Again, for this to be meaningful, you'd have to run the same exact way every single time which is why correctly run lab testing is better.
You are welcome to your opinion; just keep in mind that we are just as welcome to ours...

I have stated my intent, my known limitations and the resulting lack of scientific "proof." Nothing here is misleading in any way. If you do not agree with what I am doing; go do your own testing, with your own money.
 

pparks1

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Location
Westland, Michigan
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2013 Passat TDI SE
DubFamily,

I'm always interested to see the results of your testing. I understand completely what 993er is saying, but I still find the results interesting.

My own personal driving for the past year has shown me that weather is the #1 factor for changes in my mileage. I always do better when it's 75F+ outside. Since it's starting to become fall, my mornings are in the mid 50's or so. It seems my MFI has dropped right after my 20k service from 42-44MPG to around 38MPG. If I didn't know any better, I'd initially suspect something happened at my 20k service which has lowered my mileage. But on my drive home yesterday, when it was around 79F, it was 52MPG according to the MFI which is right where it's normally at on a typical drive home outside of rush hour when I make most of the traffic lights and rarely come to a stop.

I've used additives in the past, and I've really not noticed any noticeable change. If anything, I might be seeing a few more regens, but that is all that I have noticed. I think I might use up the rest of the additive that I have left and just go with straight diesel and call it a day. It was fun mixing it up and watching my results over the past year or so, but I'm getting a bit tired of it now, and with winter coming the more time I spend outside is more time I'm unhappy.
 

tikal

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I think we all agree that minimizing variance is a requirement for meaningful results. I also think that Jason's testing is not meaningless either provided the average driving pattern across various trials/tanks does not change drastically and the Fall weather holds more or less steady during these tank tests.
I have done a long term mileage test in which I used exclusively the same route of my drive to work:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=423256
In any case I appreciate people taking time and effort to gather various MPG data and report it here.
You don't need a wind tunnel.
The testing is absolutely pointless unless he is on the same non-stop section of Interstate, preferably away from major centers and ring roads and varying traffic. Then you want a no-wind condition and the same atmospheric pressure, temperature, humidity every single time. And on top of that, you want to run off a fuel tank that holds the same amount of fuel every single time.
I take mileage measurements all the time for all my vehicles. My TDI tank holds 55 liters. All I have to be off from one fill-up to the next is 1 liter (easy to do) to give me an almost 2% difference. That is just one factor...now go and add some other factors into the equation and you have an even greater difference.
Have we taken the cost of the product into account and compared it to the extra mileage if that is even the case?
 
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