July changes for California smog checks

IndigoBlueWagon

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If they can do it with existing technology, why not? I can't imagine the number of tuned cars makes any significant contribution to pollution, but there doesn't seem to be a reason not to inspect for tunes regardless.
 

Rob Mayercik

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NJ, U.S.A.
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I received notifications from the DMV when my vehicle wasn't up to date during one of the required emissions updates pre-dieselgate indicating that I would no longer be able to register my vehicle until the fix had been applied. California had a record that my vehicle had not been updated yet and they were notified directly when it was updated. All of that was handled without my involvement other than taking the vehicle to the dealership.
Did California accept money from the VW settlement? If so, then refusing to register an unfixed TDI is in violation of the Dieselgate settlement, as far as I know.

I cannot help but agree with IBW's description of CARB as "predatory" - while it is true that the air in areas like LA are better since they've been around, I tend to view them as not unlike a Homeowner's association that started out well-intentioned, but has over the years become drunk on their own power and operating with a grossly over-inflated opinion of themselves.
 

bizzle

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Southern California
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refusing to register an unfixed TDI is in violation of the Dieselgate settlement, as far as I know.
This is incorrect information in that it has no relevance to what I wrote. It's one of the reasons non-Californians shouldn't opine about California law aside from the fact that it's off-topic.

People who don't know California laws
Commenting on regulations pertaining only to Californians
Turning the conversation political, even though it has to relevance to the above two points in this thread
People, who don't live in California and don't have first-hand knowledge about our regulations, commenting on the various regulations concerning vehicle registration and ECU tampering
People engaging in this off-topic discussion veering off into another irrelevant discussion about Dieselgate.

These are the problems I'm seeing in the last few pages of responses...all started because of the initial off-topic, political commentary.

On top of it call, you guys are just plain wrong. The federal government regulates whether you can or can't tamper with an ECU (you can not), but states may or may not be lax about upholding that law. Nothing to do with CARB, other than CARB actually implementing regulations for California smog stations to root out violators of both federal and state law.
 
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dlai

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In fact, my understanding is VW regularly updates CARB with such records specifically for registration purposes. I received notifications from the DMV when my vehicle wasn't up to date during one of the required emissions updates pre-dieselgate indicating that I would no longer be able to register my vehicle until the fix had been applied. California had a record that my vehicle had not been updated yet and they were notified directly when it was updated. All of that was handled without my involvement other than taking the vehicle to the dealership.

Just for the record, bizzle is correct. I had this happen with my 05 wagon. Rocketchip Jeff helped me flash my ecu for one of the glow plug recalls way before dieselgate in my attempt to avoid the dealer at all costs.



A few years later another glow plug recall was issued by VW also before dieselgate and my DMV registration came in the mail stating that I could not register my car without having the recall done. So I had no choice but to go the dealer and get the recall done. After the recall was done, the dealer gave me a pink colored card stating that the recall was done and had a dealer stamp on it. I was directed to send this card in with my registration which I did. A few weeks later I received my registration sticker in the mail. So information is given by VW to the DMV.
 

Rob Mayercik

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2002 Jetta GLS, Baltic Green/Beige
Rob Mayercik said:
refusing to register an unfixed TDI is in violation of the Dieselgate settlement, as far as I know.
This is incorrect information in that it has no relevance to what I wrote. It's one of the reasons non-Californians shouldn't opine about California law aside from the fact that it's off-topic.
You clipped off part of my statement there. The full statement(which anyone can read up-thread) is as follows:

Did California accept money from the VW settlement? If so, then refusing to register an unfixed TDI is in violation of the Dieselgate settlement, as far as I know.

I'm not the one who brought up denying registration of unfixed Dieselgate TDIs, you did. I simply asked a clarifying question because everything I'd read here in the Dieselgate section indicated that if a state took money in the settlement, they were required to continue to register affected TDIs whether they were fixed or not.

Couldn't you have simply answered my question and moved on, instead of misquoting me and going on a tirade?
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
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Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
An unfixed dieselgate TDI is a separate issue from an aftermarket-tampered TDI. Do you need the full logic chart?

Stock unfixed, legal on account of the dieselgate agreement.
Stock aftermarket hot rodded, not legal - tampering.
Fixed stock, legal.
Fixed and then aftermarket reflashed, not legal - tampering.
 

bizzle

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Location
Southern California
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2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
You clipped off part of my statement there. The full statement(which anyone can read up-thread) is as follows:

Did California accept money from the VW settlement? If so, then refusing to register an unfixed TDI is in violation of the Dieselgate settlement, as far as I know.

I'm not the one who brought up denying registration of unfixed Dieselgate TDIs, you did. I simply asked a clarifying question because everything I'd read here in the Dieselgate section indicated that if a state took money in the settlement, they were required to continue to register affected TDIs whether they were fixed or not.

Couldn't you have simply answered my question and moved on, instead of misquoting me and going on a tirade?
No, I did not bring up unfixed dieselgate TDIs. In fact, I specifically included language to indicate I was referring to vehicles pre-dieselgate in order to prevent an irrelevant dieselgate discussion:

If it's a required emissions update, like the one we had to do shortly before Dieselgate broke, one would not be able to register the vehicle until the recall is completed.
(emphasis added)

dlai also responded with an example that was obviously pre-dieselgate. His 05 isn't even a CR. You chose to roll right over both of our posts and continue arguing about CARB and dieselgate.

That's why your response to mine was a non-sequitur.

I'm not on a tirade and I didn't misquote you. I'm refusing to engage in the political discussions you and others keep trying to bring into this thread to the best of my abilities. From my perspective, I'm a California driver trying to answer another California driver's question about California specific regulations that may or may not exist. Non-Californians peppering the conversation with argumentative posts and politically inflammatory commentary are not helpful, in my opinion.
 
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CleverUserName

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Can anyone provide an article or document to provide more insight to these new rules for flashed ECUs?
 

casioqv

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California
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2009 Touareg TDI
CARB has cleaned up our air as anyone who has lived here since the 70s can attest to.

+1 We have pretty clean air in California now, I've seen huge changes in just the 11 years I've lived here. We can now see the blue sky on hot days, live years longer on average, and not have to deal with the cognitive and repository problems it causes. Totally worth the hassle to give my family a longer and better life!
 

casioqv

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IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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Actually the number of high ozone days in LA has been increasing each year over the past several years. However, I agree that the air is better than 30 years ago. And respiratory disease rates have dropped in the basin.
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
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2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
Actually the number of high ozone days in LA has been increasing each year over the past several years. However, I agree that the air is better than 30 years ago. And respiratory disease rates have dropped in the basin.
It has been, though it could be argued it's more of a climate change issue than a raw pollution issue.

The air pollution changes quite a lot with weather patterns. The pollution is the worst when the air becomes stagnant, hot and sunny. Wind doesn't blow pollutants away and the heat and sun make conditions prime for further chemical reactions to happen in the immediate air that makes smog worse.

The clearest days are right after it's rained. Rain and wind make a very large, noticeable improvement in an immediate sense. The weather patterns the last few years, especially in Southern California, have had even more hot, sunny and stagnant days than the average and less rain than usual. Some of it is cyclical, rain amounts can vary quite a bit year over year here, but there definitely has been an alarming trend, especially for SoCal, of much warmer winters and far less rain. Coastal areas have also had much less of the marine layer/fog than they used to in May and June as well, which is a significant departure from the normal climate out here as well. Part of it has to do with sea surface temperatures being higher than average for a significant amount of time right off the coast here.

Anyway, long story short, hotter, sunnier weather with less rain than usual = much higher air pollution accumulation, especially in the L.A. basin. But, given that vehicles are amazingly clean nowadays and we've already seen massive improvements in pollution due to the regulations, the problem now is the fact that the climate is no longer what it once was and the change in weather patterns is actually making it so there are more bad pollution days than California had 15-20 years ago.

By that observation, one could argue that curbing CO2 output is definitely of greater importance to pollution (even though it does not direct contribute to air quality issues) than further limiting of NOx, VOCs, HCs etc.

In other words, we need more efficiency, not cleaner exhausts... says the guy who just drove a 20 MPG V10 Touareg to Oregon and back... oops. Seriously, we could use a freeze on pollution regulations... they're clean enough. But if we could find other ways to encourage efficiency, that wouldn't be a bad thing.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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Location
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I lived in LA for a couple years in the late 70s, and because I met my wife there I've been traveling back and to visit in-laws, for business, and now to see my daughter, for the past 40 years. Most of my family is in the Pasadena area, and the number of 100 degree days in the summer is far greater than 20 years ago. We were there in April and it was gloomy, which I thought was early in the season. And there were a couple years where the September gloom just didn't happen. So my perception is that weather patterns have changed.

And despite how much cleaner cars are now than decades ago, traffic is much worse, too. Right now my daughter lives in downtown LA and is working in West LA, just west of the 405. it's a 12 mile drive, takes her about an hour. Uncharacteristically she was taking the subway until they closed the station near her apartment for renovations. So the cars may be cleaner, but some of that benefit is blunted by all the traffic.
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
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2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
Thanks for the important points below!

What is the percentage of light duty diesel engines in the greater Los Angeles area and how does it compare to percentage of gasoline and gasoline hybrid vehicles (non-commercial in both cases)?

Regulation is necessary to bring a balance between efficiency (CO2 emission leading to warming of the planet) and local air pollution (NOX, VOC, CO, etc. leading to respiratory health hazards and others).


Right now gasoline and gasoline hybrid engines are still spewing disproportionate amounts of VOCs (volatile organic compounds) and PM (particle matter of a different size than the ones from light duty diesel engines) making the air in places like Los Angeles, Houston, etc. very bad for your lungs. Put all the above factors together and do the numbers (look at the GREET model) and a light duty diesel SUV (the size Americans want to buy) is going to be better overall for a place like Los Angeles vs a similar size gasoline or gasoline hybrid.

Europe is a different matter all together. You have several generation of light duty diesel vehicles going possibly back to the 1980s in very congested urban areas. Of course they need to do something about it, specially the light duty diesel vehicles without DPF and urea injection!

Right now, in my view, if you can afford two cars, the best solution is to have one for the highway (diesel) and one for the city (electrical, relatively small such as the Kia Soul or Nissan Leaf).

It has been, though it could be argued it's more of a climate change issue than a raw pollution issue.

The air pollution changes quite a lot with weather patterns. The pollution is the worst when the air becomes stagnant, hot and sunny. Wind doesn't blow pollutants away and the heat and sun make conditions prime for further chemical reactions to happen in the immediate air that makes smog worse.

The clearest days are right after it's rained. Rain and wind make a very large, noticeable improvement in an immediate sense. The weather patterns the last few years, especially in Southern California, have had even more hot, sunny and stagnant days than the average and less rain than usual. Some of it is cyclical, rain amounts can vary quite a bit year over year here, but there definitely has been an alarming trend, especially for SoCal, of much warmer winters and far less rain. Coastal areas have also had much less of the marine layer/fog than they used to in May and June as well, which is a significant departure from the normal climate out here as well. Part of it has to do with sea surface temperatures being higher than average for a significant amount of time right off the coast here.

Anyway, long story short, hotter, sunnier weather with less rain than usual = much higher air pollution accumulation, especially in the L.A. basin. But, given that vehicles are amazingly clean nowadays and we've already seen massive improvements in pollution due to the regulations, the problem now is the fact that the climate is no longer what it once was and the change in weather patterns is actually making it so there are more bad pollution days than California had 15-20 years ago.

By that observation, one could argue that curbing CO2 output is definitely of greater importance to pollution (even though it does not direct contribute to air quality issues) than further limiting of NOx, VOCs, HCs etc.

In other words, we need more efficiency, not cleaner exhausts... says the guy who just drove a 20 MPG V10 Touareg to Oregon and back... oops. Seriously, we could use a freeze on pollution regulations... they're clean enough. But if we could find other ways to encourage efficiency, that wouldn't be a bad thing.
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
Thanks for the important points below!

What is the percentage of light duty diesel engines in the greater Los Angeles area and how does it compare to percentage of gasoline and gasoline hybrid vehicles (non-commercial in both cases)?

Regulation is necessary to bring a balance between efficiency (CO2 emission leading to warming of the planet) and local air pollution (NOX, VOC, CO, etc. leading to respiratory health hazards and others).


Right now gasoline and gasoline hybrid engines are still spewing disproportionate amounts of VOCs (volatile organic compounds) and PM (particle matter of a different size than the ones from light duty diesel engines) making the air in places like Los Angeles, Houston, etc. very bad for your lungs. Put all the above factors together and do the numbers (look at the GREET model) and a light duty diesel SUV (the size Americans want to buy) is going to be better overall for a place like Los Angeles vs a similar size gasoline or gasoline hybrid.

Europe is a different matter all together. You have several generation of light duty diesel vehicles going possibly back to the 1980s in very congested urban areas. Of course they need to do something about it, specially the light duty diesel vehicles without DPF and urea injection!

Right now, in my view, if you can afford two cars, the best solution is to have one for the highway (diesel) and one for the city (electrical, relatively small such as the Kia Soul or Nissan Leaf).

I absolutely agree there. And in general, over the long term you will have more issues with a modern diesel being regularly stuck in traffic as opposed to being under a constant, higher load on the open highway with little traffic. Variable geometry turbo vanes begin to stick at lower miles or the vane mechanism wears to the point of having overboost from that constant stop and go work out. DPFs clog faster, you get more frequent regens or worse, more likely to crack a DPF on the Gen 1 engines that also have to do more frequent micro regens for the NOx trap.

Battery electric and hybrids make a ton of sense if you're commonly stuck in that driving cycle. They're far more efficient and they were effectively designed for that type of driving. They will also be cleaner in that environment with the minimal running of an internal combustion engine at all.

In urban environments, they make the most sense. But there's also people who have long commutes before they even get into that traffic mess. And diesels are the better tool for long highway drives if the traffic isn't all stop and go, especially when you scale up the size of the vehicle to SUVs and pick ups.

I suppose that's what's frustrating to dieselheads like us is seeing regulations largely being made with the urban environments in mind and not taking into account that many people have a very different way of living and thus their vehicular needs are very different as well. As I always like to say, different tools for different jobs. And for people who live in the sticks and often times need to drive long distance, diesels tend to be the much more convenient option for efficiency, range and overall drivability in rural environments and highways, especially where there's not yet charging infrastructure (or electric vehicles that do what some people who live out that way really need them to do off road).
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I agree with the idea of different tools for different jobs, except there are fixed expenses with multiple vehicles (registration, taxes, insurance) that can eliminate any cost savings on fuel, especially if the vehicles are newer. I have multiple vehicles but they're mostly old, so they don't cost much in insurance or taxes.

My approach to this is I use my old diesels for daily driving in traffic and short trips, and the modern, emissions controlled diesels for long drives. Not very green, perhaps, but it will extend component life in the newer cars.

That said, I could live with a good electric for daily driving and an emissions controlled diesel for road trips. Just would have to find the right electric. Not out there yet.
 
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