Maintenance costs, Diesel vs. Gas, help please!

JIESEL

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May 19, 2010
Location
Burlington, Ontario
TDI
03 Golf gl
I was talking with my cousin yesterday and he basically told me that TDI maintenance costs are generally so much higher then petrol engines that it outweighs any fuel savings I might have. Is there any truth to this? He's also a mechanic so I'd assume he knows what he's talking about, but perhaps he just ran into a few TDI's that wern't taken care of properly? what are your experiences/ opinions? I still REALLY want a golf TDI but if the maintenance is rediculous then I might not get one.
 

Joe_Meehan

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Ohio USA
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NB TDI, 2002.5, Silver
he basically told me that TDI maintenance costs are generally so much higher then petrol engines that it outweighs any fuel savings I might have.

And how does he know this?

My personal experience is that there is little or no difference in maintenance cost.
 

RalphVa

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Oct 17, 2009
Location
Virginia
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Jetta
I thought we had a longer thread than this one. Okay, I'll reply basically the same as I did before. Where's the difference? Oil changes on both gas and diesel are basically once/year for most people. There are NO spark plug changes. Glow plugs will last about 3 or 4 times sprark plugs. The ones on our 240D had to be replaced in about its 20th year. Fuel filters are changed the same about 30k miles. The 240D required valve adjustment every 15k miles; not so on the TDI.

About the only significant difference between gas and diesel is that its a bit more effort to find a diesel station.
 

Doug Huffman

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I agree that, anecdotally, there is no difference in maintenance costs. Believing, as I do, that automobiles are not disposable commodities, the lifetime cost is the essential evaluation.

I'd rather pay to maintain a paid-for car than pay for marketeering. I will walk before I drive a Government Mandated Car - GMC.
 

FowVay

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Aug 27, 2000
Location
Georgia
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2009 Jetta returned to der Führer
Based on my ownership of vehicles over my driving lifetime I would say that the ownership costs are similar based on recommended schedules. However, often times items wear out or break prematurely requiring attention and the dreaded "unscheduled" repair.

My previous 1999 model VW Golf TDI needed far more glow plugs than my 1999 BMW 323i has ever needed and the cost of a glow plug is about double the cost of a spark plug that the BMW requires. This parity jumps up to 10 times the price difference if you compare to a basic Toyota or Chevy. The BMW plugs are quite pricey at $12 a pop. The cheapest Bosch glow plug I ever found for my TDI was $20 and as stated, they rarely lasted over 100,000 miles whereas the replacement interval for the spark plugs in the BMW is 100,000 miles.

Fuel filters are required at more than double the frequency on the diesel and they too are twice as expensive as they are for my gasser BMW.

Timing belts are costly along with the additional need to change bolts, pumps, o-rings, etc. whereas the BMW requires only a coolant flush every four years regardless of mileage. After 11 years of ownership my BMW is on the original water pump.

I have a box of miscellaneous parts that my VW Golf TDI required to keep it running after 10 years of ownership. For my gasser BMW,,, I have only one spare oil filter on the shelf.

Yes, I definitely agree with the OP's mechanic friend. Owning a TDI for financial preservation probably isn't a wise decision. Driving it for the fun of driving it is another story. Personally I'd never try to sell a TDI based the low cost of ownership. That would be dishonest,, plain and simple.
 

Tsagoth

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Hanover, ON
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2003 Jetta Wagon Automatic
Doug Huffman said:
I agree that, anecdotally, there is no difference in maintenance costs. Believing, as I do, that automobiles are not disposable commodities, the lifetime cost is the essential evaluation.
Anecdotes are not facts.

If you do all your own wrenching and repairs and don't consider that to be a cost, then a TDI may well cost less than the gasser.

If you have to pay someone else to service and repair your TDI, then it will cost far more than a gasser. Really it will depend on how much you drive. Drive a lot, expect to pay a lot. That's not an anecdote, I have a stack of bills 1.25" high for the last 137,000 miles detailing over $18K in dealer & guru service, including the $5600 01M transmission.

VW parts are expensive and not very well made, so expect to replace them frequently.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
It really depends on what cars your are comparing, and how long and how much you drive them.

For instance, the ALH cars popular 2.0L gas counterpart (there were actually 3 different 2.0L engines during the ALH's run: AEG, AVH, AZG, but the are all pretty comparable for this post) is actually a decent enough engine for most people. And its PM costs will generally be lower than the ALH. And here is why:

oil: same, 5w40, 502.00 spec for the gasser, 505.00 spec for the ALH, both 10k mile intervals, both hold about the same.

filter: different filter, but the ALH one is usually a couple bucks more.

air filter: same, same interval.

fuel filter: this is where the diesels cost a LOT more. ALH needs a rather pricey filter every 20k miles, the 2.0L needs one about every 100k miles and they are half the cost (comparing GOOD brand filters).

spark plugs: no, the ALH does not have any, but its glow plugs cost twice as much and while they do not need replacement every 40k miles like the 2.0L engines do, they often do not make it to even 100k miles before needing attention.

timing belt: the ALH has a complicated list of items that need to be replaced, and it takes more time. The intervals we can say at this point are the same at 100k miles, but you can figure the 2.0L will be about $250 less P&L.

ignition system: the coils and spark plug wires are generally pretty good on the 2.0L engines, with the acception of the AEG which has a slightly different one, and those sometimes have issues... but they are only about $100 and are easy to replace.

So, other differences:

ALH: complex VNT turbo that sometimes needs attention, and these are not cheap. Same for the Bosch VE injection pump.

2.0L: oxygen (Lambda) sensors are a weak spot, especially on the AEG, but are not terribly expensive nor difficult to service. However, they link into the 2.0L's biggest problem, the catalyst which is monitored, and rarely make it much past 120k miles and will set you back about $1k to replace (VW extended the warranty on these they had so many problems).

So really, in the end, the REAL comparison ends up being purchase price (2.0L wins hands down, especially if you buy used), fuel economy (no contest, ALH owns that title), and driveability (subjective, but for the highway the torquey ALH wins IMHO, despite being a little slower around town).

Then the fact that pretty much every 2.0L, especially the AEGs, seem to use quite a bit of oil puts a black mark on its column, and when it comes to tuning for extra power obviously any turbodiesel is going to have an edge over a NA gasser.

But overall, as far as PM and such, they are pretty much dead even.
 

Cadenza_7o

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2003
Tsagoth said:
Anecdotes are not facts.

If you do all your own wrenching and repairs and don't consider that to be a cost, then a TDI may well cost less than the gasser.

If you have to pay someone else to service and repair your TDI, then it will cost far more than a gasser. Really it will depend on how much you drive. Drive a lot, expect to pay a lot. That's not an anecdote, I have a stack of bills 1.25" high for the last 137,000 miles detailing over $18K in dealer & guru service, including the $5600 01M transmission.

VW parts are expensive and not very well made, so expect to replace them frequently.
$18k over 7 years = $2571/yr. Even w/o the 01M trans, that's still quite expensive!

I hope your case is not typical as I will one day own a TDI. If it does cost more to own, I'll might as well stick to gas.

It could be luck but my '01 1.8T NB (01M trans) currently has 172k and I've spent $5800 for mostly maintenance. I do most of the work myself, which helps me to see what's going on with the car.
 

SuburbanTDI

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Apr 5, 2004
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Midwest
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Beetle TDI, and two Jetta TDI
Not including routine scheduled Fluid & Filters:


2005 TDI #1, 190,000 miles.

1 set brakes & rotors $350 @ 145,000 miles
1 Set tires @ 120,000 (Stock was Continental)
1 Timing belt @ 100,000 miles $600? from Jason (Not sure about the price)

2005 TDI #2 85,000 miles

1 set brakes & rotors $350 @ 75,000 miles
1 Set tires @ 65,000b (Stock was Michelin)
1 Antenna $20

2004 TDI had 55,000 miles

Nothing beyond fluid & filter.
 

jasonTDI

TDI GURU Vendor , w/Business number
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Oregon, WI
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20' RAM 3500 CCLB dually HO/Aisan. 2019 Cherokee 2.0T
Pretty much what Oil Hammer said.

Also, it boils down tot he mount of abuse someone heaps on the car. Some people just drive ROUGH. Those cars need suspension, tires and clutch work at 2-3x's the normal rate. I see that a lot.

FWIW the coil pack, wires, and plugs from VW run $350. I see them needing replacement every 100K miles or so. So that eats up the cost difference on a timing belt service.

Longevity, other than the higher oil consumption I see several upper 200K 2.0s pretty frequently. All long distance commuter cars.
 

procupine14

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Kansas City, MO
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2003 Beetle 5sp
The one thing that I have noticed is that, most often, you see people who drive A LOT owning TDIs which is a smart thing because of their longevity and fuel economy. It would probably seem like, after awhile, that your car is in the shop all the time if you drive it a ton. The fact of the matter is yes the engine is a diesel but the rest of the car is still a normal car. So you have to take care of it in order for it to last. I'd say that most of these guys here are perfect examples of owners that make their cars last.

I can say for a fact that I have spent more money on my Buick Regal GS during my time of ownership than most of the TDIers on here and my Buick gets far worse gas mileage than these cars. 90% of the stuff on my car was problems with non engine related things as well (hey I take car of the engine). Things on my car that I didn't really expect to go out that did and set my warranty company :) back a ton of money would be things like:

40,000 miles - underhood fuse box shorted and melted - $800.00 for parts and another $1,000.00 for an auto electrician of sorts to rerun the wiring harness

45,000 miles - trans fuild pressure control module stuck shut - I don't remember how much it was but I remember it was in the neighborhood of a couple hundred dollars parts and labor.

55,000 miles - defective supercharger nose seal. The funny thing about this doosey was that there is no replacement for that seal sold by GM so you have to get the whole supercharger as a unit.....you don't wanna know the price.

coming up on 73,000 miles one of the CV joints tore the boot and flung grease everywhere.

Got done with the CV joint taken care of and the lower engine mount tore....yet another replacement.

By 83,000 miles I am out the cost of buying and installing (on my own) three window reglulators.

and the list goes on.....so as you see, for me, the TDI maintenance looks like a cake walk.

:)

Just an example.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I should also add I have seen plenty of 2.0L cars with over 300k miles, and the 01M transmission for whatever reason is several hundred dollars cheaper on the gas cars than the diesels.
 

belome

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Mid MI
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2002 Jetta GLS TDI 5-speed
Honestly, the thing that scared me most about purchasing a TDI is viewing some of the catastrophic stories. If you need to replace a turbo or an injection pump you can easily get over the grand mark.

To me, that would just suck. I think the largest repair bill I've ever had on any vehicle was about 300 for a fuel pump.

Luckily, I've tried to keep myself as informed as possible and will try to keep a little nest egg stored in case a catastrophic failure happens.
 

belome

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Mid MI
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2002 Jetta GLS TDI 5-speed
procupine14 said:
I can say for a fact that I have spent more money on my Buick Regal GS during my time of ownership than most of the TDIers on here
Wow, you have had some bad luck with your GS... and some pretty unheard of failures for the car.

I have well under a grand in repairs on mine and I'm at 190k miles.
 

procupine14

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2003 Beetle 5sp
belome said:
Honestly, the thing that scared me most about purchasing a TDI is viewing some of the catastrophic stories.
Yeah I hear you on that. One thing that I have been able to do on this forum is to prepare for the worst if it does happen:eek:

But like I said up a few posts my Regal is in the shop A LOT and my Regal LS was in the shop even more often than my GS is so I can't say that my Buicks have been incredible in that category. But they are fun!
 

procupine14

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2003 Beetle 5sp
belome said:
Wow, you have had some bad luck with your GS... and some pretty unheard of failures for the car.

I have well under a grand in repairs on mine and I'm at 190k miles.
Lucky you! hahaha both of my Regals have been a handful and both had problems before they even turned over 40k. I know the guys over on RegalGS forums always think my car is the black sheep of the group but hey!
 

belome

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Location
Mid MI
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2002 Jetta GLS TDI 5-speed
procupine14 said:
I know the guys over on RegalGS forums always think my car is the black sheep of the group but hey!
I've been banned. I have to get my L67 info from ClubGP now. I've tried to get in touch with an admin now that Sheinhowser has left, but the emails go to a black hole.

My 300 fuel pump is what got me looking for a different vehicle. It stranded me and that pissed me off enough to get a second car again. My list of Regal failures: Fuel Pump Resistor, MAF, Fuel Pump, Air Conditioning pulley, a few brake calipers. Still have the original tranny, water pump, alternator etc.
 
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procupine14

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2003 Beetle 5sp
belome said:
I've been banned. I have to get my L67 info from ClubGP now. I've tried to get in touch with an admin now that Sheinhowser has left, but the emails go to a black hole.

My 300 fuel pump is what got me looking for a different vehicle. It stranded me and that pissed me off enough to get a second car again. My list of Regal failures: Fuel Pump Resistor, MAF, Fuel Pump, a few brake calipers. Still have the original tranny, water pump, alternator etc.
not to thread jack here....my apologies to OP :eek: :(

Yeah the fuel pump resistor on this car still hasn't given me problem (knock on wood) but the LS needed it replaced once....my MAF is still running well also. I haven't been over to RegalGS in a little while. Just have other interests and my car is running just fine so I have no reason to post.
 

jasonTDI

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belome said:
Honestly, the thing that scared me most about purchasing a TDI is viewing some of the catastrophic stories. If you need to replace a turbo or an injection pump you can easily get over the grand mark.

To me, that would just suck. I think the largest repair bill I've ever had on any vehicle was about 300 for a fuel pump.

Luckily, I've tried to keep myself as informed as possible and will try to keep a little nest egg stored in case a catastrophic failure happens.
Honestly, repairs like that are few and far between.

95% of my work is general maintenance or un-toofing someone else's work.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
jasonTDI said:
Honestly, repairs like that are few and far between.

95% of my work is general maintenance or un-toofing someone else's work.
Amen to that, same here. :cool:
 

RT1

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2005 Golf 1.9 TDI w/tiptronic 09A
I think you have to take the "costs more" with a grain of salt. Fuel filters certainly cost more, the oil costs more, oil filters cost more but it's hardly going to break the bank over the life of the car. The bulk of the cost of operating a car for most people is the fuel purchase, not the maintenance.
If you do a lot of highway commuting the fuel dollar savings will offset the cost of maintaining the vehicle pretty easily. I've saved over $5,000 in fuel costs compared to my old 27mpg vehicle and put out $3,000 in maintenance supplies, tools and tires in the past four years. The tools, I don't have to buy again. Tires are a wear item for any vehicle. For me it's the best purchase I've ever made and I plan on keeping it a long time.
 

McBrew

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Annapolis, MD
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2003 Golf GLS TDI, 5 speed, Silver/Grey
Personally I'd never try to sell a TDI based the low cost of ownership. That would be dishonest,, plain and simple.
I have to agree. I enjoyed driving my TDI for many reasons. First of all, I had always driven diesel cars, so that's what I was used to. The low end torque is wonderful! Even though my current daily driver (a Scion xD) has about 42% more horsepower than my TDI (when it was stock), the TDI had much more oomph at 2,000 RPMs. The Scion can beat it in a 0-60 contest, but who drives like that, anyway?

I also liked the feel of the car itself, which had nothing to do with the fact that it was a diesel. VWs are just a lot more solid than a Toyota. Quieter, more sure-footed, better steering response, fewer rattles, etc.

Having said all of that, I will say that TDIs are a little quirkier than most other cars. Even a bit quirkier than a gasser VW, and they are quirkier than the average car. If you are the type who takes a car to the dealership for all service, forget about a TDI. Well, since the OP lives in Canada, I will say that the dealerships up there have a better reputation with TDIs than down here in the states.

If you work on your own car... and enjoy working on your own car... then a TDI might be right for you. No, they're not breaking down all the time... but they need work from time to time, and you can save big bucks by doing it yourself. With the help of this forum, you can do it better than a dealership.

If your number one priority is cost of ownership, you probably want a Honda or Toyota. Yes, you will probably get lower fuel economy... but when it is all said and done, you will probably come out ahead. On top of that, you will probably have spent a lot more time with the hood closed, too. Are Hondas and Toyotas as solid and fun to drive as a VW? No. Not really. You'll be dealing with a tinny-sounding engine and more rattles and clunks. With minimal care, you'll have a car that will take you to 250,000 miles... probably well beyond 300,000 miles if you keep it long enough.

Yes, you could have catastrophic failures on ANY car. However, the likelihood of having a $2,000+ failure on a Honda or Toyota is much lower than on a TDI. Then again, if a catastrophic failure happens to you with any car, then that brings it up to a 1:1 chance, doesn't it?

When my TDI started to get flaky, I couldn't find a diesel car that was in my budget. I had the following priorities:

- New
- 35+ MPG
- 4dr Hatchback
- Ability to tow at least 1,500 pounds
- Manual trans
- Stability control

The best value I could find on a car that had all of those features was the Scion xD. Most other cars would nickel and dime you on certain options... especially stability control. I looked at a Honda Fit, but they make you bu $3,600 worth of option packages before you can get stability control. I find that to be pretty lame, since stability control has to be standard on all cars by 2012. Anyway, the xD has served me well... although it doesn't feel like a German car.
 

procupine14

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Location
Kansas City, MO
TDI
2003 Beetle 5sp
If you look up the true cost of ownership on a Jetta TDI they are pretty low. I looked it up here and while it may not be super accurate, if you compare it to something like a Chevy Aveo you get a pretty close cost of ownership and, IMHO, a nicer, more fun car! :)
 

ruking

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Mar 27, 2003
Location
San Jose area, CA
TDI
2003 VW Jetta, 5 M, Reflex Silver: 09 Jetta, 6 Sp DSG, Candy White: 12 VW Touareg, 8 Sp A/T, Flint Gray
In regards to the OP's original thought, for me I like the diesel's flexiblity in control of the costs.

Here are a few examples: 1. air filters recommended 40,000/60,000, can actually go 80,000/100,000 2. oil filters recommended 10,000, can actually go 30,000 3. oil change intervals recommended 10,000 miles, can actually go up to 30,000 miles.

TB/WP changes for gassers/diesels are probably a tad less forgiving only for the dire consequences if the TB breaks. They are app the same intervals and prices.
 

jasonTDI

TDI GURU Vendor , w/Business number
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20' RAM 3500 CCLB dually HO/Aisan. 2019 Cherokee 2.0T
Hey McBrew,

Congrats on the new little McBrew!
 

McBrew

Top Post Dawg
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Location
Annapolis, MD
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2003 Golf GLS TDI, 5 speed, Silver/Grey
ruking said:
In regards to the OP's original thought, for me I like the diesel's flexiblity in control of the costs.

Here are a few examples: 1. air filters recommended 40,000/60,000, can actually go 80,000/100,000 2. oil filters recommended 10,000, can actually go 30,000 3. oil change intervals recommended 10,000 miles, can actually go up to 30,000 miles.

TB/WP changes for gassers/diesels are probably a tad less forgiving only for the dire consequences if the TB breaks. They are app the same intervals and prices.
A lot of what you say goes for gassers as well. My Scion was supposed tom have a 5,000 mile OCI, but they updated it to 10,000 miles. Oil analysis ( I use Blackstone) shows that the oil still has quute a way to go at the 10,000 mile mark, and I do a lot of towing too!

Air filters and oil filters are similar. There's not even a recommended interval for changing then fuel filter on my Scion.

Also, many gassers (Scion/Toyota included) are using timing chains these days. Most of them are good for 250,000 miles or so.

Comparing spark plugs to glow plugs is kind of odd. They don't do the same thing at all. There are some gassers that need spark plugs every 25,000 to 35,000 miles, but there are also spark plugs that last more than 100,000 miles. Glow plugs can last well over 100,000 miles too... But they tend to be more like incandescent light bulbs -- they burn out. Sometimes for no obvious reason. My TDI needed one glow plug at around 70,000 miles. The others lasted more than twice as long (they are still working). Some people experience a glow plug failure at 20,000 miles. They are highly variable, and are not a regular maintenance item.
 

BryanK

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Joined
May 12, 2007
Location
Ontario, Canada
TDI
2015 Golf TDI
My take.....
TDI's are damn expensive to fix/repair. Unless you have a fully equipped garage in your back yard, spend the $8,000 for the diagnostic cpu and have the amounts of time on your hands to fix the thing every time it brakes down and are mechanically inclined, buy something else, honda, toyota whatever. Seems like I have had to pour a ton of cash into this thing. New turbo in January 2010 after messing around with limp mode for ever. Limp mode always seems to strike as soon as the cold weather sets in, Nov/Dec. Ya, the millage is great, >600km's on 1/2 tank is cool. But, too many finicky, tempermental components, parts etc. You have to find a "guru" to get the thing fixed, not just your average mechanic. I fortunately found a vw "guru" and he looks like he should be working as an IT guy in my office. Anyway, there's my two cents (although I may need that two cents back pending another repair) I wanted a TDI, I bought a used one in 2003 (car is 01), car has 230,000km's on it. I am planning on pushing 500,000km so I can at least fool myself into thinking that I got my monies worth. Would I buy another VW? Not to sure. Girlfriend just bought a new CRV, I like it. I suppose that the TIG is vW's answer to the CRV. To be honest, right now I don't even want to think about buying a new vehicle. In the words of Mr Neil Young; "long may you run" PLLEASE!!!!
 
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Nich

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Pheonix, AZ
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As for basic maintance desials are just the same as gassers. The real expences come for the check engine light coming. I truly think VW dearships should be sued for being a bunch of scam artist. In a 5 month period i lost 5k to dealships for a check engine light that keep comming on as they replaced parts in an "attempt" to fix the problem. Final straw they wanted to replace a fuel pump for 1700+ I went and got a second opinion who replaced the glow plug wires and fixed the problem but then 15k later check engine light is back on. These cars have propetual problems that my toyotas never had. I owened a 93 4runner other then basic maintance only put 900 into it in 7 years of ownership
 

mhx

Active member
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Jun 29, 2010
Location
houston
TDI
none
all 2010 vw comes with 36k free service.

at least you wont have to worry about either choice for 36k!
 
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