Netflix Special on VW - “Hard NOx”

Matt-98AHU

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Very wisely said, Matt. Your thoroughness with the science echoes your thoroughness and skill with TDI's. I've been out of the TDI world for a while. I sold my 2004 Jetta when I received a 2015 Passat TDI SE as a gift! I used this during my entire year doing a chaplain residency at John Muir in Concord. Then dieselgate happened and the offer was just too good. I now have a 2010 CC and a 2014 GLI. Great cars but I really miss my '04. I had nearly 290,000 mi. When I sold it and recommended he contact you for the 300K timing belt.

Hope you and Dee are well. Miss all you guys!

Mike
Yeah, the offers are difficult to say no to for sure. Thank you for the words. If you need help with any major stuff or advice on the TSIs, let me know!

Continuing on the discussion, turbobrick240:

I did come across some reading that indicated oxidation catalysts do actually convert some diesel NO into NO2, which might explain why there was less irritation in the old Ford compared to the newer gen diesels. The newer ones are emitting a higher ratio of NO2 to NO than older ones.

NO, not so bad. NO2, not so good. heh
 

CsTDI

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Dieselgate was horrible, and no good for VW- and although quieter- it's not real clear that they didn't have company- Mercedes, Dodge, and Jeep. And of course then their is Bosch (wonder if it could have occurred across all of these companies without Bosch?)... (kind of like headlines about BP and the oil spill and not so much about Haliburton) but with the monkey charge, while VW was on the scene yet again- pairing them with the wrath of folks concerned about questionable animal studies is a little off-track. Depending on your read and whether it is accurate, it either wasn't VW at all (industry lobby group funding- and not just diesel industry members...) or it was several manufacturers. It doesn't mean what certain people at VW approved or coded is good (and of course we see deceiving the EPA is not good), but I am sure that the vast number of VW employees (around 500,000) and suppliers (lots) were not involved. The answer to cheaters (handful of people? 12? 30? 100?) seems to be to blame them collaterally where you can make a case, and remove "decent quality at a decent price" technology and brand from potential owners.

...and newer diesels may actually not be to bad: http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-42666596
 
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Matt-98AHU

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Dieselgate was horrible, and no good for VW- and although quieter- it's not real clear that they didn't have company- Mercedes, Dodge, and Jeep. And of course then their is Bosch (wonder if it could have occurred across all of these companies without Bosch?)... (kind of like headlines about BP and the oil spill and not so much about Haliburton) but with the monkey charge, while VW was on the scene yet again- pairing them with the wrath of folks concerned about questionable animal studies is a little off-track. Depending on your read and whether it is accurate, it either wasn't VW at all (industry lobby group funding- and not just diesel industry members...) or it was several manufacturers. It doesn't mean what certain people at VW approved or coded is good (and of course we see deceiving the EPA is not good), but I am sure that the vast number of VW employees (around 500,000) and suppliers (lots) were not involved. The answer to cheaters (handful of people? 12? 30? 100?) seems to be to blame them collaterally where you can make a case, and remove "decent quality at a decent price" technology and brand from potential owners.

...and newer diesels may actually not be to bad: http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-42666596
That article alludes to points I've been trying to make as well. NOx is but one slice of the emissions regulations pie, and when you take into account the whole picture, modern DPF equipped diesels are indeed quite clean.

While gas and diesel passenger vehicles are supposed to meet the same emissions standards these days, they are not equal. The major regulated emissions in the U.S. are as follows:

Carbon Monoxide (CO)
Hydrocarbon (HC)
NOx
Volatile organic compounds and non-methane organic gases (VOCs/NMOG).
Particulates

In every category, diesel is far and away cleaner than their gas counterpart on average with the exception of NOx. CO is a small fraction of what your average gas engine puts out and that stuff is far more immediately poisonous than the level of NOx even the cheaty VWs emit. Zero particulates thanks to DPFs. Very low HC. And diesel as a raw fuel at normal ambient temps emit no vapors like gas does, hence why diesels have no evaporative emissions equipment and leaving the gas cap off entirely still doesn't set a check engine light like it would on a gas vehicle.

When you look at the full picture, diesel still makes a compelling case for being a clean, efficient engine with all the modern equipment. Just unfortunate that ill-informed media and the public at large has taken this scandal and twisted it to make the image of diesel as being impossible to make clean.
 

Mythdoc

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When you look at the full picture, diesel still makes a compelling case for being a clean, efficient engine with all the modern equipment. Just unfortunate that ill-informed media and the public at large has taken this scandal and twisted it to make the image of diesel as being impossible to make clean.
Moral of the story: admit what is true, play fair, and then you might have a creditable argument in the court of public opinion. Don’t cheat, stonewall, and lie, because if you get caught you have forfeited the terms of the debate entirely to your adversaries. Too bad VW/Audi did not learn the lesson from those who made the mistake before them, like Phillip Morris.
 

CsTDI

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Another moral of the story, although not stated, may be, when something like this happens, it is not just the relatively very small number of folks that didn't play fair that gets impacted. It is the entire brand- which includes all of the employees, affiliates, suppliers, and retailers in the chain, as well as the current owners (although compensated), and future/potential future owners who may want this technology and product in the forseeable future.
 
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turbobrick240

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Yeah, it's unfortunate how pervasive corrupt leadership can be within industries and nations. Maybe corporate VW will grow a conscience someday- but I wouldn't bank on it.
 

kjclow

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I thought we all learned the lesson as kids that when caught with your hand in the cookie jar, admit fault, and ask for forgiveness. With many these days it's more like the cookie jar is stuck on their arm and they are still denying it's existence.
 

Matt-98AHU

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Moral of the story: admit what is true, play fair, and then you might have a creditable argument in the court of public opinion. Don’t cheat, stonewall, and lie, because if you get caught you have forfeited the terms of the debate entirely to your adversaries. Too bad VW/Audi did not learn the lesson from those who made the mistake before them, like Phillip Morris.
Yes, for sure. I won't defend VW's actions, they did indeed deserved to get dinged for it, I just dislike that their boneheaded move may now jeopardize the option of having a diesel passenger vehicle altogether in the not distant future in this country. Most of what I'm trying to defend here is not VW, but the viability of diesel as a clean, efficient option. Attempting to counter the now increasingly popular opinion that diesels are inherently dirty and cannot be made clean enough, despite incredibly strict emissions rules which they can infact meet without cheating if they do it right. And in many ways cleanER than their gasoline counterparts.
 

Rico567

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<snip>Most of what I'm trying to defend here is not VW, but the viability of diesel as a clean, efficient option. <snip>
But, unfortunately this is now irrelevant. As 'Mythdoc' stated earlier, the terms of this debate are wholly in the other camp, and VWAG (and, tarred with the same brush, small passenger diesel) is completely discredited.
An in what is the increasingly scary "court of public opinion" (aka scare journalism), this issue is closed. What VW has done has been blown up into just another world-ending threat. And in a media that now enthusiastically supports any accusation or allegation as equivalent to a conviction, how should we expect any other outcome?
The only advice I can give is that of any flight attendant: "Keep your seat belts securely fastened."
 

bizzle

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I think you guys are overstating the impact of this "scandal." It's a scandal primarily to the people directly involved with it (VW, government regulators, and current customers). The media's existence is predicated upon reporting news...and that means often times things get reported as news even when it isn't. The general public doesn't know and doesn't care about it and, in fact, doesn't even know our VWs are diesel.

The notion that diesels are dirty smelly vehicles is something that has been lodged in US drivers' minds for decades (we're talking 80s and perhaps earlier). This hasn't really done anything to alter that perspective. There was no time where the US saw diesels as dirty, then came to understand them as clean, and now thinks they are dirty again. They've just either always been dirty or irrelevant. *Tons* of diesels are sold in the US...just in truck form. The reason soccer moms don't buy diesel *cars* is because they don't want to fill them up with a grimy, green handled fuel dispenser and really no other reason.

I've been fueling diesels for decades and regardless of whether I'm fueling my 98 or 2015 almost every time someone either pulls up and says, "hey is that really a diesel car?" or "hey, I don't mean to be rude, but do you know you're putting diesel into your car?"
Maybe it's regional, but I'm surprised you guys don't have similar experiences given how ubiquitous those types of responses have been. There was one incident I remember, and I really only remember it precisely because of it being the only document anecdote of its kind, where someone's TDI was vandalized shortly after the scandal erupted but that was also in a specific city where protesters are more common and militant and diesel (or even private transportation) are targets of protests regardless.

Passenger car diesels were already a sliver of a sliver of the US market and on their way out before this happened. If it's had any affect at all it's only been to hasten what was already clearly in the works. VW diesels have hung around because of VW stubborn tenacity to remain relevant in the passenger car market in the US. Look at what they're offering now, though, SUVs and stripper gassers. That's the segment that makes sense in the US and TDIs were already a drain on VWs production resources before dieselgate.
 

turbobrick240

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I don't know, tdi's were making quite a resurgence in the US prior to dieselgate. As far as getting comments at every fill up- that must be regional thing. I've had only two such comments in the 7 years I've owned my tdi.
 

redrocketTDI

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I am just thinking of the this cars just wasting away in a land fill or crushed. Causing more of a hazard to the environment.

I do see they are release many of the gen 1 cars back to the market. As the price is high,as concerns on how well the car look and fuel.
 

bizzle

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I don't know, tdi's were making quite a resurgence in the US prior to dieselgate. As far as getting comments at every fill up- that must be regional thing. I've had only two such comments in the 7 years I've owned my tdi.
Do you think that "quite a resurgence" is a bit of an overstatement given that nearly every single (individual) auto manufacture sells as many cars in a single quarter as VW managed to sell during this entire CR era?

To put this in perspective, VW sold roughly half a million TDIs within the past decade. In January this year alone, the weakest month for auto sales, every major manufacture sold more than 100K with some hitting nearly 200K.

The market has spoken, has been speaking clearly for the past decade, that diesel passenger cars are unwanted by US customers for the most part. TDI sales are irrelevant to the US market except to the people who actively seek them out and nearly everyone who actively seeks them out only cares about the scandal in so far as they can profit from it. This scandal hasn't changed anyone's perspective except for a small portion of diesel buyers who appear to be angry with VW--but they went and bought a diesel elsewhere rather than concluding diesel was no longer a viable fuel.
 

Matt-98AHU

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Do you think that "quite a resurgence" is a bit of an overstatement given that nearly every single (individual) auto manufacture sells as many cars in a single quarter as VW managed to sell during this entire CR era?
To put this in perspective, VW sold roughly half a million TDIs within the past decade. In January this year alone, the weakest month for auto sales, every major manufacture sold more than 100K with some hitting nearly 200K.
The market has spoken, has been speaking clearly for the past decade, that diesel passenger cars are unwanted by US customers for the most part. TDI sales are irrelevant to the US market except to the people who actively seek them out and nearly everyone who actively seeks them out only cares about the scandal in so far as they can profit from it. This scandal hasn't changed anyone's perspective except for a small portion of diesel buyers who appear to be angry with VW--but they went and bought a diesel elsewhere rather than concluding diesel was no longer a viable fuel.
I see what you're saying, but another way of looking at it is that the numbers of diesel passenger vehicles was increasing quite a lot largely thanks to VW. Bigger numbers than they had ever sold in before, which a good marketer would dub a "growth market."

And not having the diesel option most definitely hurt VW as it was more than 25% of their sales. And, had they been able to come to market with reasonably priced AWD wagons, trucks and SUVs with diesels, I think there could have been an even bigger resurgence in store.

Seems to be VW's constant issue, they never quite get it right in the U.S. market, or the timing is completely wrong.

But yes, I do concede that in the larger scheme of things, diesel is small potatoes in the U.S.. Although that does seem to come in handy should an unfortunate natural disaster or other run on local gas stations occur. Much less competition for the oily stuff coming out of the pumps!

At the end of the day, we diesel heads do put up with more maintenance headaches to have a vehicle we enjoy driving that also happens to return amazing fuel economy. Most Americans don't give two craps about driving experience and just want functionality and something they can neglect the maintenance on a little and get away with it.

But, that's where I do get frustrated. There may indeed be a day where battery electrics make more sense for the daily grind than any other individual vehicle. Cheaper to operate, virtually no maintenance outside of basic brakes, suspension and tires, big, instant torque, far fewer moving parts. But, there's always a few of us fringe weirdos who like driving long distance. Something with comfortable seats and good chassis which you can also go 600+ miles between fill ups.

No, it may not be cheaper than electricity (for the moment), but you will get to your destination faster just based on not needing to stop as frequently.

Makes sense in an enthusiast's head, who of course thinks of these things much more than the average motorist. But that's just it, we have individual freedoms to create or purchase products as we see fit. And anytime I see moves made to restrict that freedom, I have to question the motives. Who are you (figuratively speaking, not singling anyone out) to say what products best suit my personal needs and wants?
 

Rico567

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<snip> But that's just it, we have individual freedoms to create or purchase products as we see fit. And anytime I see moves made to restrict that freedom, I have to question the motives. Who are you (figuratively speaking, not singling anyone out) to say what products best suit my personal needs and wants?
Yes, this is the "nut" of this whole issue, in the broadest possible sense. And our reason for rejecting EVs (as they exist now.....and maybe as they will exist during my lifetime) are basically the same as yours. We really enjoy our Passat TDI, which was purchased with the specific goal of lots of highway cruising, and for which it is admirably suited. There is only one trip we take (to VA) where we have to refuel en route, and the NMS sedan is very comfortable for extended drives (I'm 6'6").
However, there's always another side to any issue as complex as this. There is a whole array of products that we are banned from purchasing, ranging from a number of pharmaceuticals to military weapons. Most people would acknowledge that the motives in these cases are clear, and that the emissions issues behind Dieselgate are not. And yet, what VW did is clear, and is not contested (they admitted it). They cheated on the emissions standards in a very systematic and deliberate, almost stereotypically Teutonic manner.
Now, due to the above, small passenger diesel vehicles are on the path to extinction in this country— and perhaps elsewhere. And I cannot see anything in the Magic 8-Ball that might change that.
As for us, we have little choice now except to buy a gas car or a hybrid; I don't like the prospect of the fuel efficiency of the former, and I'm not convinced we'll be happy with the driving characteristics of the latter. We shall see.
 

bwilson4web

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The documentary "Hard NOx" had mistakes with some of the dates and recreations. Generally the facts were accurate even if some salacious liberties were taken. But the design of the experiment had more problems:
  • 4 hours exposure - to find health hazards, the test subjects need a longer exposure and larger population. It really needs to be a significant fraction of the test subject's life, perhaps even generational, rather than what was effectively a brief, biological air filter.
  • white mice first - white mice would be an excellent choice. Relatively short life spans and affordable populations, the health hazards could be traced from conception to the grave.
Of course the 'defeat device' made the whole exercise useless as they did not get the on-the-road emissions.

It is the sort of program I would show my non-technical wife. In a little over an hour, she would get enough of the facts and data to understand without getting lost in the technical minutiae those in this discussion typically love. Of course she loves primates, often including her husband. She would be happier to see white mice test subjects since she considers mice to be dwarf rats which she hates.


Bob Wilson
 
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MichaelB

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The documentary "Hard NOx" had mistakes with some of the dates and recreations. Generally, the facts were accurate even if some salacious liberties were taken. But the design of the experiment had more problems:
  • 4 hours exposure - to find health hazards, the test subjects need a longer exposure and larger population. It really needs to be a significant fraction of the test subject's life, perhaps even generational, rather than what was effectively a brief, biological air filter.
  • white mice first - white mice would be an excellent choice. Relatively short life spans and affordable populations, the health hazards could be traced from conception to the grave.
Of course the 'defeat device' made the whole exercise useless as they did not get the on-the-road emissions.

It is the sort of program I would show my non-technical wife. In a little over an hour, she would get enough of the facts and data to understand without getting lost in the technical minutiae those in this discussion typically love. Of course she loves primates, including her husband. She would be happier to see as mice test subjects since she considers mice to be dwarf rats which she hates.

Bob Wilson
Well here is how I view the documentary. It explained all the devious methods that were used to sell "Clean Diesel" Whether it is completely accurate to the most minute point is irevelant. To try and prove to the EPA etc that their cars do not pose a health threat (by gassing monkeys) and if it didn't they still broke the current laws in place defining NOX output. The people in charge of that testing should have tested it on themselves if they were so confident that there was no harm. I'll bet nobody would have volunteered. :(
 

spanky1

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Just finished watching this, and have a couple of thoughts. I'm an owner of a 2003 TDI that I've put ~340k miles on. I also love documentaries, and wanted to see exactly how VW pulled this off. In other words, I really wanted to see an unbiased view.
Within a couple of minutes, I'd heard the phrase "driving a death machine". At that point, the propaganda/BS detector went off.

-I laughed at the recurring image of the exhaust cloud that was being shown. I've rarely seen fumes like this, except briefly on cold mornings.

-I thought they tried to make a bit too much out of Stuart Johnson helping to acquire a dyno. I didn't see anything sinister with it.

-I found it interesting when they showed how BMW and Mercedes both performed poorly in "real world driving" vs. the lab. Not much was made of this, and I'm surprised more testing hasn't been done here in the states by an independent group.

-I've always found it interesting that VW was able to pull this off with the governmental agencies and their unlimited budgets and resources. Then were nailed simply because of someone(group) touting their virtues.

-I didn't need the political swipe at President Trump regarding the Paris Accord. This was almost laughable since the documentary had told me a few minutes earlier that Europe was a joke regarding emissions anyway(if it protected their own)

-Seeing the recalled VWs sitting outside of the old Pontiac Silverdome was sad. Perhaps because I'm old enough to remember the building and the demise of this huge facility. Seeing it without the dome was interesting, and sad. Seeing all of the recalled TDI's was sad as well.

-This had a chance to be a great documentary, but ended up being mostly a fluff piece. Other than the interviews with the VW execs and Mr. Carb, it was sub-par.
 
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