Engine stalls then won't start for 5 minutes...

belewmoon

Active member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Location
Alice Springs, AU
TDI
'04 Jetta TDI
'04 TDI Jetta - 83k miles, 5 speed.

Engine stalls while driving & won't restart for at least 5 minutes. This has happened 5 times in the last 3 weeks.
#1-#2 - 1/2 mile down the road in the morning after sitting all night. Shifting from 3rd to 2nd gear to make left turn
#3 - After 30 mile highway commute. Get off highway, pull into parking lot, in 1st gear.
#4 - 25 mile highway commute, stop & go traffic, 1st gear. Had to push car to side of road.
#5 - 20 mile highway commute. Off highway, thru a couple of lights. Pulled into parking lot in 1st gear.

Happens at low speeds. Doesn't matter if cold or hot.

I have had this car for about 9 months. Put about 15k miles on it in that time. It has always, when starting and after it has been sitting awhile, puffed a cloud of blueish smoke. Since the stalling problem, it still does this but not as bad.

The engine usually starts in only a couple of rotations. Since the stalling problem started, it takes a good 5 seconds to get the car started.

Lastly, when the engine stalls & I'm on the side of the road, it will restart after ~5 minutes. And when it restarts, it takes a good 10 seconds of key turning the engine before it finally starts.

Any ideas? Please let me know if there are any other questions.
 

belewmoon

Active member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Location
Alice Springs, AU
TDI
'04 Jetta TDI
Tried an experiment this morning. Started car & let it run while I got ready for work. When I went back to car, it had stalled. Tried to start it & it wouldn't start. Sat for 5 minutes & it started but immediately stalled & wouldn't immediately restart. Sat for 5 minutes & it started but immediately stalled & now it won't start at all. Just cranks & cranks.
 

weedeater

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 17, 2001
Location
Reston, VA
TDI
Jetta, 2001, Baltic Green
has this car ever used biodiesel?

2ndly, this could be a lift pump about to crap out. Also, the 04s had issues with tandem pumps. There was a recall.
 

belewmoon

Active member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Location
Alice Springs, AU
TDI
'04 Jetta TDI
jettawreck said:
Any CEL?? Had it scanned for trouble codes with VAG COM yet??
No CEL. That would be too easy...

Haven't scanned yet. That will be next if putting a new fuel filter on doesn't help.

Thanks for the reply.
 

belewmoon

Active member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Location
Alice Springs, AU
TDI
'04 Jetta TDI
weedeater said:
has this car ever used biodiesel?

2ndly, this could be a lift pump about to crap out. Also, the 04s had issues with tandem pumps. There was a recall.
I get bio (20%) from Annapolis Naval Station every once in awhile. Not on a regular basis tho.

Any way to check lift or tandem pumps?

Thanks.
 

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
weedeater said:
has this car ever used biodiesel?

2ndly, this could be a lift pump about to crap out. Also, the 04s had issues with tandem pumps. There was a recall.
Good call. I'd seriously look at the lift pump first.
 

weedeater

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 17, 2001
Location
Reston, VA
TDI
Jetta, 2001, Baltic Green
It's in the fuel tank under the rear passenger seat. Listen when you turn the key to start to hear it running (or not).

No run = no go.

The kind of symptoms you're reporting are typical of a pump going bad. It's not a cheap part ($250+), but you can replace it yourself. You might want to talk to a dealer about the recall and see if your VIN is in the lucky group.
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
Check the lift pump first.

Lift up the right rear seat bottom and then the cloth cover and the round plate for the in-tank lift pump is what you will see. You should be able to hear the pump run better, now that the seat bottom is not covering the pump (provided the pump is working).

After you do this, turn on the key and listen carefully for the pump to run for a couple of seconds. If its working, it will run briefly and turn off again, unless the engine is started (in that case, the pump should continue to run). Not hearing it run confirms the pump (or wiring or relay) is not working. If you do hear the pump run, its not a dead giveaway that the pump is OK.

Tandem pumps can leak air in (its on the cylinder head. driver's side).

A remote possibility is a bad crank angle sensor (or wiring for it). I would reference a Bentley to find out how to troubleshoot this, or the tandem pump.

--Nate
 

belewmoon

Active member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Location
Alice Springs, AU
TDI
'04 Jetta TDI
PDJetta said:
Check the lift pump first.

Lift up the right rear seat bottom and then the cloth cover and the round plate for the in-tank lift pump is what you will see. You should be able to hear the pump run better, now that the seat bottom is not covering the pump (provided the pump is working).

After you do this, turn on the key and listen carefully for the pump to run for a couple of seconds. If its working, it will run briefly and turn off again, unless the engine is started (in that case, the pump should continue to run). Not hearing it run confirms the pump (or wiring or relay) is not working. If you do hear the pump run, its not a dead giveaway that the pump is OK.

Tandem pumps can leak air in (its on the cylinder head. driver's side).

A remote possibility is a bad crank angle sensor (or wiring for it). I would reference a Bentley to find out how to troubleshoot this, or the tandem pump.

--Nate
I will definitely check the lift pump next. Thanks for the detailed instructions.

A relay 109 was mentioned by someone on VWvortex. They said it's a common problem on TDI's. Any thoughts on this possibility?
 

TornadoRed

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Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Location
West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
belewmoon said:
A relay 109 was mentioned by someone on VWvortex. They said it's a common problem on TDI's. Any thoughts on this possibility?
Very common on early A4 TDIs ('98-'01). Uncommon on later ones. But you can buy spares for about $10 at one of our tdiclub vendors. Many club members keep a spare in the glovebox, just in case.

There are easy ways to check for a bad relay 109. When you turn on the switch, the dashboard warning lights do not come on for the usual one second or so.

What you've described sounds more like a fuel problem (lift pump) than a relay 109 problem. At least you now have information that will help you confirm the lift pump diagnosis, or not.
 

belewmoon

Active member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Location
Alice Springs, AU
TDI
'04 Jetta TDI
After replacing the fuel filter, the car wouldn't start. Tried a few hours later & it would start. It is now running good. No stalling & no hard starts.

I'm thinking since I did not prime the fuel filter that caused the initial no start.

The big puff of blue smoke is back at startup. Any thoughts on this?
 
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TornadoRed

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Aug 3, 2003
Location
West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
belewmoon said:
After replacing the fuel filter, the car wouldn't start. Tried a few hours later & it would start. It is now running good. No stalling & no hard starts.

I'm thinking since I did not prime the fuel filter that caused the initial no start.
The lift pump in the tank should fill the fuel filter, priming it is less important/unimportant unlike the older TDIs without the lift pump.

Replacing the fuel filter may help, but it does not explain why you had a problem with stalling. I can't believe the filter was so severely clogged that it would cause a stall -- maybe loss of power, but not zero power.
 

McBrew

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Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Location
Annapolis, MD
TDI
2003 Golf GLS TDI, 5 speed, Silver/Grey
It is your in-tank lift pump. Just flip the rear seat up and turn the key. You should hear the pump run for about 2 seconds. I bet you won't , though.
 

belewmoon

Active member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Location
Alice Springs, AU
TDI
'04 Jetta TDI
McBrew said:
It is your in-tank lift pump. Just flip the rear seat up and turn the key. You should hear the pump run for about 2 seconds. I bet you won't , though.
McBrew, I see you're local. I lifted the right, rear seat, lifted the cloth covering & removed the metal cover. Engine off, turned key on, couldn't hear anything but some gurgling from that location. Do I hear the pump when the engine is running?
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
I would suspect that what you heard was perhaps the pump ever so slowly turning, just enough to bubble some fuel out through the line. I would bet the pump is your problem. For $220 it is worth the gamble, given what you have described.

I trust these lift pumps so much that I purchased a spare and its in my trunk along with the few tools I need, ready for a roadside reploacement. My car does not run without the lift pump working. I found this out the hard way. Luckily it was before my warranty expired!

--Nate
 

McBrew

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Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Location
Annapolis, MD
TDI
2003 Golf GLS TDI, 5 speed, Silver/Grey
We had the same problem with our 2004 Jetta. The pump is pretty easy to replace... just squeeze and pop off the two fuel lines, unplug the harness, unscrew the big black ring, and pull out the old pump. Installation is reverse of removal. You'll have to tilt and turn to get the float out of the hole... and then back in. Cover the area with rags first... you don't want your car smelling like diesel in the inside!
 

belewmoon

Active member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Location
Alice Springs, AU
TDI
'04 Jetta TDI
belewmoon said:
After replacing the fuel filter, the car wouldn't start. Tried a few hours later & it would start. It is now running good. No stalling & no hard starts.
I thought I had this problem licked! Replaced air filter & fuel filter on Sat. Not a hint of problem until a hard start Thu night. Fri morning the car would start, idle for a couple of minutes & stall. Hard starts are back too! Now I can't keep the engine running...

Could this be bad fuel clogging the filter again? I've had this problem for about a month and have bought fuel at different locations. Or does this sound like the lift pump?
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Get a small, clear inline fuel filter and a junction and bypass the fuel filter. This way you can see what is going on with your fuel system.
 

TornadoRed

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West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
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2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
Just about everyone who has responded in this thread has said it COULD be the lift pump. None of us can offer you absolute assurance. But it is the most likely reason for a PD engine to stall -- if it was a badly-clogged fuel filter, it would not have started in the first place.
 

belewmoon

Active member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Location
Alice Springs, AU
TDI
'04 Jetta TDI
TornadoRed said:
Just about everyone who has responded in this thread has said it COULD be the lift pump. None of us can offer you absolute assurance. But it is the most likely reason for a PD engine to stall -- if it was a badly-clogged fuel filter, it would not have started in the first place.
Yeah, I know they've said the lift pump but I just wanted to add what has happened after the filter change...so now I'm pricing fuel pumps. Dealer wants $376 plus $18 for a seal.

BTW, the parts guy had no idea what a lift pump is. I said the pump in the fuel tank. "Oh, that's a fuel pump."
 

TornadoRed

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Joined
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Location
West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
belewmoon said:
Yeah, I know they've said the lift pump but I just wanted to add what has happened after the filter change...so now I'm pricing fuel pumps. Dealer wants $376 plus $18 for a seal.

BTW, the parts guy had no idea what a lift pump is. I said the pump in the fuel tank. "Oh, that's a fuel pump."
Try pricing a lift pump from the vendors here at TDI Club. Stay away from dealerships if you can help it.
 

DSL HED

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S. Portland, Maine
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2012 Jetta wagon DSG
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VDUB TECH

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2875 old Barrie rd east Orillia
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pd engines start without the lift pump.See if the area is really wet around the tandem pump.Disconnect the feed line at the filter see if fuel comes out when you cycle the ignition in order to check the lift pump.
 

belewmoon

Active member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Location
Alice Springs, AU
TDI
'04 Jetta TDI
VDUB TECH said:
pd engines start without the lift pump.See if the area is really wet around the tandem pump.Disconnect the feed line at the filter see if fuel comes out when you cycle the ignition in order to check the lift pump.
I didn't see this post before I replaced the lift pump. I suppose it could still be the tandem pump but doubt it. Replaced the lift pump 5 days ago & all is good. No more hard starts, no more stalls. Car runs better & smoother.

Bought it from metalman for $189. Thanks for the links DSL HED.
 
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