Conversation Forums

TDI Steve: I respect your opinions, but to my mind what you've suggested is the definition of "censorship." To MODERATE is to keep the tone of the conversation within reasonable limits, and occasionally to eliminate topics which the overwhelming majority of people would consider to be patently offensive. ("Freedom" doesn't mean "anarchy.") However, to pick and choose what topics are acceptable, and whose opinions and beliefs I'll allow to be voiced...no thank you. I don't want that job, and I can't imagine any right-thinking person who would. For one thing, it's impossible.

We either need an open discussion forum in which virtually anything goes, within reasonable parameters, or we have to just chuck the whole idea and stick to TDIs. No compromise will ever work successfully. There is simply no way to agree on a set of guidelines for what topics are acceptable. And to come up with a short list of unacceptable topics, like religion, is the worst sort of censorship and most people won't stand for it. (Including me.)

I think it would be a great loss to the forum to eliminate Jerry permanently. I'd still stick around for the TDI stuff, though my enthusiasm for answering the same questions over and over and over and over would suffer. (I need a dose of Jerry to fuel me up for the newbies!) But I'd rather see "TDI ONLY" than some kind of emasculated, Politically Correct recipe-trading section. I wouln't even condescend to look at something like that. Better Ric and Turbo Steve than the Vortex.

-mickey

Like a few others, I visit this forum every day.

I've only been around for a month, but have really enjoyed the "company" of the other forum members.
This thread is now a "General Discussion for Forum Members about the General Discussion......."
What does this tell you.

I find myself agreeing with Mickey 100%.
After 2 weeks the politics would have died down.
If you don't like a thread, or you get offended, ignore it.
Some people thrive on upsetting (really upsetting) other people. If no one responds, they soon shut up.
The section added life to the forum, I know Fred realises this.
Look, if something like this is reinstated, don't go emailing Fred if you get offended. Just don't read it.
Really sorry this has happened.

Matt

I like the idea of a Tavern, where members meet much like the show CHEERS. I would stay away from JERRY ANYTHING so not to lent credence to the way it is hosted giving the idea that thats what is expected or desired in the bar. CLASS is a hard word to describe but is easy recognizable. Build it and they will come,make it a place for low lifes to hangout and that is what you'll get.

[This message has been edited by Barefoot (edited November 03, 2000).]

I knew it was all going to end in tears as soon as I saw the first posts on politics and religion! These are things that most people hold strong views about and things are bound to get heated when folks disagree. As long as we all accept that the moderation will have to be a bit firmer I don't see why a general discussion section can't work.

leave it to Ric the master of finding the way around -

I'll pipe in here.

Personally - i did't mind the general insanity of the 'closed' section.

I like some of the surveys some of the discussion -

What got me mad and really made me ignore the whole section was when it turned into a religious and political pissing contest.

I don't come to this place to hear about how great some Jackov running for some goofy office is to someone, or to hear about someones committed views on their chosen religion.

that kinda thing isn't needed here. I know everyone wants to feel some sort of personal contact with eachother.

Can't we keep the politics and religion out of it? Maybe Fred feels similar to the way i do - I would have removed (if I was a moderator - good thing I am not - well maybe I should be) any topic that was a religious/political fight, or dissagreement.

There were exceptions, some pretty cool deep religious discussions were had but they were the exception. the political crap was never welcome (in my book) tune in to fricken CNN for that crap.

I think reactions like mcbiii are just showing personal flaws, a insensitivity - predjudice if you will.

Lets work together folks. Do we really need that section? Yes, could we all have behaved better? Yes. (hey I am guilty of flingin some reactionary crap around - one of the reasons to ban certain topics - it will keep my blood pressure lower - well at least until I run into some moron using non-synthetic oil in their TDI).

Congradulations Fred, this site really is first class and it really is a community, you are a great man to put up with us all.

To those who are winers - SHUT UP AND GROW UP. Be constructive and mature - help find a solution rather than say "bye"

--

Good stuff in that forum, was the cruise control surveys, the how do you give the Ol' Smokey to a tailgater - the DAMN I just smoked a Hond@ - Guess what happend drivin to work today - the epsilonian BS going on - the really funny stuff -

lets all work together - to make it better than ever!

Geoff

mbciii,

let me add this:

Oh and since when did a gathering at a bar and driving have anything in common?

Get real.

I am going over to the new coffee shop in town to praise the day the folks left who were not able to HELP the community grow in a CONSTRUCTIVE manner. I'll raise a cup of joe to every man woman and child, american canadien or European or where ever they choose to come from that help our poor battered leader Fred in building the coffee shop in the foundations of the torn down community bar!

Fred's place is Fred's place; I have considered him to be a very kind gentleman in every regard that I have had the pleasure of witnessing. I respect his decisions. Out of the goodness of his heart and pocketbook he makes this forum possible, and for that we are all very fortunate indeed. Is it so much to ask that members have manners?

As many of you probably know, I am not a big fan of the "Springer" section. I was in favor of moving it to a less prominent part of the forums and I liked the idea of removing it from the active topics list.

However, I suspect that removing it entirely will not have the desired effect. Much like the repression of a thing makes the black market for such things flourish, removing the off-topic section will just bring the posts into the other topic areas, where greater policing will be required --something nobody really wants more of. Having a section to move off-color topics or posts to might be a wise idea, as long as it is a destination location and not highly visible, as its purposes are exactly counter to the main purpose of this forum.

Good manners should always be at the forefront of any member's mind. As a moderator, one can use their own good judgement as to when topics should be moved to a "Springer" section or if a poster should be warned of inappropriate behavior. The ability to move topics and posts to an appropriate arena is a very useful tool.

Good luck,
-a-

cryin' won't bring it back!

VeeDubTDI
“Thank you, Fred. It was a wise decision on your part to eliminate the discussion forum. Yeah, it was fun at first but it just got way out of hand. “ DITTO for me Fred!

The quality level of “FREDS “ site has just been raised a notch! Fred I admire you for trying a new idea and also for reacting to its failure! With an open mind and a little tweaking maybe another try could turn into a positive addition to YOUR site! You are on the right track!


Any support you need including $$ just let us know!
Hondo

If people think the forum that was closed was a failure, than they will also think that the fuels and lubricants section was a failure as well. With all the discussion of Amsoil v. everything else that happened in that forum it must have been a failure because of all the heated debate that came out of it.

Just because you don't agree with something, or don't like it doesn't make it a failure.

Valois and I disagree on many things, diametrically in some cases, but I don't mind continuing the discussion with him about those things.

Sheesh, much ado about nothing. Good job Fred, keep up the good work. I appreciate both the things I like and the things I don't, because my whole life is full of these things.

Randy

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mickey:
TDI Steve: I respect your opinions, but to my mind what you've suggested is the definition of "censorship." To MODERATE is to keep the tone of the conversation within reasonable limits, and occasionally to eliminate topics which the overwhelming majority of people would consider to be patently offensive. ("Freedom" doesn't mean "anarchy.") However, to pick and choose what topics are acceptable, and whose opinions and beliefs I'll allow to be voiced...no thank you. I don't want that job, and I can't imagine any right-thinking person who would. For one thing, it's impossible.
-mickey<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree.. Turbo Steve started a couple of threads on the same topic. Perhaps if they were consolidated into one topic, it would have been much easier for the people that would be offended to simply avoid it. Instead there were multiple topics that people interpretted as preaching.

Posts of such length as what Steve posted had better have some merit of discussion or else they are a complete waste of bandwidth.

The wiping thread- who are we kidding? That was a joke and everyone knew it. If you don't like bathroom humor, stay away from the topic that makes references to such...

Karl, GFS---it's an epsilionian term---since they reproduce both sexually and asexually, it's the ultimate insult like chinga su madre is to latinos- It means go fu(k self(since you can't do it any other way) .

------------------
Forum's only distributor for nasty pills and suppositories

“If people think the forum that was closed was a failure, than they will also think that the fuels and lubricants section was a failure as well. With all the discussion of Amsoil v. everything else that happened in that forum it must have been a failure because of all the heated debate that came out of it.”


Yes I think that section was a failure as it stood. No I don’t also think the fuel and lubrication suction was a failure at all and your supposition is totally off base. One is totally related to what this site is about (diesels, fuel and lube) the other is not and that is the difference. It’s not the arguments that are the problem, it the subject matter on an auto related site. At least the last time I checked it was an auto related site. Sheesh call the closed forum what you like but I sure as hell don’t think it was a great success when in Fred’s own words he said “My problem that this format obviously wasn't working”. So let me re-choose my words. Lets see its not that it was a failure it ‘s just that it wasn’t working! Can we split the hair any thinner here!

I also haven’t heard Fred say anything about shutting down the fuel or lubrication section have you? If you have please post a link and correct my ignorance! At least any arguments in those section were auto (TDI) related and not related to someones religious or political beliefs. From those arguments we all gleaned something related to what the TDI site is all about! It has come up before about Amsoil related sales pitches going in the spot they belong in (TDI CAR/STUFF FOR SALE). That’s as it should be everything has its time and place. The oil at least goes in our GD engines. So the religious political section is where and it relationship to TDI’s is what?

Just for the record I am not one of the people that complained to Fred about it. It sounded like a good idea to me. After I seen some of the crap I just ignored it completely. But make no mistake it was a failure in its present form on an auto-related site. I am not trying to sensor what people read, and yes I did contribute $$ to the site. Since some people are making that a big issue. But it is a GD auto–related site! Fred is right on for closing it and making adjustment and trying again! I was trying to show some support for his dession. I think the forum section that does finally work will be the one that leaves religion where it belongs. That’s at Church on Sunday morning or Sat afternoon what ever your beliefs are. I look forward to it reopening with something that will work and is not a failure!
Hondo

I think you can easily see who really makes this site what it is. And it's the people who sit at their keyboard for 3 hours minimum and make a meaningful contribution. Not those who just arrive and start chucking their weight about. You can also see by the general reaction to the evil beetle thread that mickey for instance fits the former catergory. There are dozens of other members who make the same contribution- Valois and Christi are just two that spring to mind.

In addition to Skypup's technical posts his great wildlife pics (which have nothing to do with TDI's) prove that you CAN have a general discussion section without upsetting the world.

Thanks, I'm happy to know that a few people enjoyed the wildlife photography out the backdoor, some even wrote for screensavers too.

99.99% of the people here ROCK

I'll chip in my $0.02 in Canadian currency ...

Is a general discussion forum a good thing to have? I would have to say that given the number of people here who "know" each other through these forums, YES in general.

Was it working the way we had it before? Clearly not.

There are certain things which cannot be part of public forum discussions, both for the protection of the site owner (Fred) and for the protection of everyone using OR VIEWING the site: Anything which could cause a person to be charged with a crime cannot be part of these forums. And remember that these forums have public access, so saying something here is equivalent to saying the same thing in front of a crowd of some 3,000 people.

If someone wants to do drug deals, it can't be done here. We haven't had a problem with this.

If someone wants to post pornography, don't post it here. We haven't had a problem here, either. Feel free to e-mail dirty pictures to each other in private.

Those are examples which should be fairly clear-cut. It gets grey when, for example, a list member posts publically (i.e. here) something which could cause that list member to be charged with, say, distribution of hate literature (a crime in Canada; remember that this site is based in Canada and must therefore operate under the laws of Canada; our criminal code defines hate literature but I won't get into it here), or slander (this is why personal attacks can not be tolerated), or discrimination of any sort (Canadian Charter of Rights violation).

If one person calls another a nasty name in public (it has happened here), those can be grounds for criminal charges under some circumstances. Do that in the maintenance forums where I have authority to delete or edit posts, and I will delete or edit those posts. It hasn't been a problem there (thankfully), but it has been a problem elsewhere.

Strictly speaking, there should be NO OPTION for the moderators but to delete anything which could be the basis of criminal charges to anyone. This is not censorship in my view, it is legal protection for the site owner and users, to ensure that this site remains in operation. It doesn't matter whether members like it or not. We can't allow this site to be a contributing factor towards criminal charges.

Now for one step further into the grey.

Certain topics are known to be asking for trouble if discussed in a public place, because they tend to involve deep-seated beliefs in some people, and no amount of discussion or argument would change those beliefs. Two topics like this are religion, and politics. It is my OPINION that discussions of a religious or political nature do not belong on these forums. Not even on the general discussion forum. They are simply too charged with emotion for many people.

I could put up with "statements of fact" of a religious or political nature (e.g. "News item - so-and-so died / got married / whatever"), but not debate of whether this was a good thing or a bad thing.

I don't like the dumb surveys that certain members post, but that's just me, and I'm quite willing to ignore them. A certain amount of co-operation between list members is required. Everyone has to recognize that they don't HAVE to read something they don't want to. But on the other hand, some control is necessary to ensure legal protection of the site owner and its members, and I'd suggest that making religion and politics "taboo" subjects in the interest of minimizing the number of charged discussions that often result in personal attacks.

This is all my opinion, of course, and it's Fred's site. I think the temporary shutdown of the open discussion forum while we discuss options was the right thing to do. I suppose that we are now discussing those options.

Brian

V, you're right back up there on the pedestal---ONLY you could do that ! I totally agree with you but you were sounding like a lobbyist .
GoFaster, cut the criminal crap unless you know what you're talking about---libel and slander are VERY difficult to establish---ask rogetz.

------------------
Forum's only distributor for nasty pills and suppositories

[This message has been edited by dparnell (edited November 03, 2000).]

Doyle, you are now Mr. Acroynm (or is that Mr. Acrimonious). I pale in comparison.

By no means am I suggesting that we "control what people read", or that there is serious potential for legal trouble here. But generally the laws concerning libel, slander, pornography, and the like form a fairly good set of guidelines as to what is or is not appropriate material for public access, and I'm suggesting that those be the guidelines that we follow.

My opinion only, of course.

Brian

Hi,

I'm glad the Discussion Forum was shut down at least temporarily. It was really getting out of hand. Even my thread was a little racy. Personally, I don't think the General Discussion section is absolutely necessary. Nor do I think it will ever work to everyone's satisfaction. With 3000+ members, not everyone is going to be nice, not be sensitive, or act like "adults." The Forum flowed just fine with some personality shining through within other threads. Sure, there would be a few sidetracks; but the better posters would get back on topic quickly so their words contributed to the thread.

Wanna have great "Springer" discussions with TDI Forum members without cluttering up the TDI Forum? Start a discussion group on eGroups and get the junk sent straight to your mailbox. Just don't take it to the VW TDI group.

I’ve commented regarding Fred’s decisions before. Here’s the same comment with a different twist: When people create websites, they have a certain "vision" on where they'd like it to go. Those of you with comprehensive websites know what I mean. The website is like another room in the creator's home. Fred's original TDI Page caught the eyes of 1000s of people. His Guestbook grew to an incredible size. That is probably why the TDI Forums were created. The TDI Forum is an extension of Fred's site and, figuratively, his home. I seriously doubt that he'd want everything that happens here in his home. How many of you prohibit smoking, profanity, drinking, or vulgarity (even in disguise) in your homes, or even just in front of your spouses? How many of you act differently at work, online, and around your spouse? I know I do... I'm a sailor and, at least verbally, act like one when I'm around other sailors (that's why I like being a sand-peep right now). The Internet is like CB Ch 19. You can either be yourself, or let that alter-ego shine through behind an apparent cloak of anonymity. Anyway, you have standards within your home, don't you? If someone were violating your standards, you'd either ask them to settle down, ask them to leave, and/or not ask them over again. Some of you might even take it outside for a little asskicking (not my style). Does "democracy" (as quoted from so many whiners) reign in your house? Hell no! Your home, your rules, right? Well, that's how I see Fred's page. It's Fred's site, Fred's rules apply!

Perhaps Fred will be able to resurrect the General Discussion section with strict guidelines for moderators to follow. The General Discussion section DID add more "flavor" to the Forum. However, the TDI Forum was just fine without this flavor. An analogy: Any military food service specialists will tell you that s/he can’t please everyone. They probably receive more complaints than anyone else in the service does. Most military recipe cards call for rather bland recipes. Sure, people complain. But they’re perfectly free to get the desired "flavor" elsewhere (eg., salt, pepper, Tabasco, etc). Want a specific "flavor?" Go somewhere else. I think the eGroups idea is very plausible. Perhaps some of the "masters of off-topic posts" can be the list moderators and be free from Fred’s "tyranny."

In summary, I support Fred’s decision, regardless of whether the General Discussion returns.

Take Care,


------------------
Scott's Jetta TDI Page and TDIClub.com Stuff
98 Jetta TDI w/92k, 802-mi/55-mpg (best)

PS:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ric Woodruff:
The forum is still useable, if you go to...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The fact that Ric posted (and cross-posted) this combined with the name of his thread, "I will not be intimidated," illustrates Ric's blatant disregard for Fred's wishes, desires, and authority over his own site. I doubt the lack of responses was due to the ultimate self control on various members' parts. The threads were probably deactivated after Ric's failed attempt at a revolt. Apparently, he didn't learn much last year. I may be narrow in saying this, but I wonder if he'll be spending this Christmas the same way he spent last Christmas... banned from the TDI Forum.

Some never learn...

[This message has been edited by Stealth TDI (edited November 03, 2000).]

This disturbs me, it was posted in the aforementioned section by one of the worst offenders for tripe, wasted bandwidth, banal responses, and overall plain stupidity:
It is on a survey thread on how to eat corn on the cob. You may as well play somewhere else Ric, because in my sections in the future anything you post is going to be sifted through a fine tooth comb, and if I do not find it in the least beneficial, it's getting deleted.
"cut and pasted"
Ric Woodruff
Veteran Member

Posts: N/A
From: Oviedo, FL USA
Registered: Feb 99
posted November 02, 2000 06:49

This site is too much. To think we get it for free!!! Somebody pinch me!!!

[This message has been edited by Ric Woodruff (edited November 02, 2000).]

Maybe I'm missing something here---it wouldn't be the first time. Ric used to be the bane of the moderaters existense until -z went ballistic---now the mod squad is back on Ric---WHAT am I missing?

------------------
Forum's only distributor for nasty pills and suppositories

THANKS Karl, my umbrella broke---Pleeease no Doyle Poppins .

------------------
Forum's only distributor for nasty pills and suppositories

Further to my previous comments. I'm tickled pink that a community has grown around a common interest: TDIs. Some people are giving real good, constructive input here, and I'd love to hear more. Those who are complaining, well, sorry, I don't feel that is constructive or bringing a solution any closer.

I've said many times I have no problems with people chatting where it belongs and becomming 'friends'. However, I don't want the core purpose behind the forums (TDI's in case anyone has forgotten) to be lost. I've often said it's the people in all aspects of the forum that make it what it is today. Something special. So keep sending those constructive comments and read everything that people write before commenting on it, such as:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Therefore I've removed it and we will have to consider other options.
... Anyways hang in there guys, we will think of something.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doyle no need to get nasty , I enjoyed the General area as well, and it is not about how much one donates, I was refering to the people sending Fred nasty-grams with comments on how much their sensibilities were "offended" and just wondering if their opinion is so strong, do they help him to support the site. Seems kind of strange to me that someone would concern themselves on the content that a site has and not be willing to donate to it. Fred has never solicited contributions, and I do not believe he takes into account whether someone has contributed anything in consideration of their opinions, but it angers me to think that a few people want to dictate what others can read because they do not feel the site should contain this material and then are unwilling to support it.

Well folks I guess it's time I put in my $.02 worth. I am sorry Fred felt the need/had to shut down the Gen. Disc. forum. I am even more sorry he got hammered with vile e-mails about this/that persons' own sensibilties. I don't post much on to Fred's. But by golly at work I read it every day. I just don't think my employer would appreciate me posting to it. Fred, you and all the other moderators do a great job. I hope ya'll can come up with something similar. I didn't always like what I read, but then I didn't have to open up the pages either. I certainly am not going to send you or one of the moderators a "blistergram" because I was "offended" by something I read. Case in point: When I saw that religious diatribe the other day I ignored it when I got to reading it and saw what it was about. Same thing about the politics. If I want to read it fine; if I don't fine. Fred bends over backwards to try to keep everyone happy. Can't be done. My sentiment is this; if you can't stand the heat, don't go in the kitchen. Now that I vented my spleen, I feel better. May not look any better, but feel better.

I've been thinking about this whole situation for a while, and I think i've come up with some... um... stuff to say about it.

First of all, the General Discussion Forum was a nice addition to the website. (Those of you who think i'm contradicting myself, please read on.) I think that it's important for members to exchange friendly banter. The great thing about this site is wide range of members' personalities. Since I've become a member, I've gotten to know quite a few people, and I can't wait to meet more. I'm rambling...

Anyway, the problem with the General Discussion Forum was that:

1.) It was hard to ignore. If you went into the active topics list, 50% or more of the active topics were from the General Discussion Forum. I don't know if it's possible, but it would be nice if nothing from the GDF showed up on the active topics list.

2.) Members were taking the information in the forum way too seriously. (I'm not trying to pick on anyone, i'm just trying to use a good example here.) Example: Person A would post a "sensitive" subject in the GDF, Person B would criticize Person A's values/beliefs for whatever reason, and Person A would vehemently defend themselves. There are two things wrong with this: A.) Person B criticized Person A's beliefs. B.) Person A got offended (I know, that sounds bad). If person A hadn't posted such a controversial issue in the first place, then Person B would have never been tempted to chime in with negative replies.

It boils down to this: If we want a General Discussion Forum, then we must all face the simple fact that life is too damn short to argue about petty differences and trivial issues. There are much better things to complain about than how you eat corn on the cob. If you don't want to read about how to eat corn on the cob, then don't read about it. If for whatever reason you do decide to read about corn, then don't post a reply. The topic will eventually disappear. Things would get done a whole lot quicker if people would quit whining about everything.

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. OR... if you don't like the discussions taking place, don't enter that forum. It's totally up to each individual to control their own path in life. Nobody is FORCING you to read about corn (or whatever subject). It's really not all that complicated.

In terms of moderating, I think that the moderators should be aware of the situations taking place at all times. Censorship should not be the moto. Instead, keeping peace (if members can't do that on their own) should be the moto. A moderator should not have to remove/edit posts in the first place! Yes, i'm talking to everyone out there. It just shouldn't have to happen. I realize that it does happen, but we just have to accept that. People screw up sometimes & fly off the handle... or let their words slip without giving them a second thought. WE ARE ALL GUILTY OF THIS!

Okay... i'm gonna wrap this up now. I think that the GDF is a nice thing to have on the forum because it keeps things lively & interesting. I just hope that we can work something out that won't cause people to be at each other's throats.

Finally, I'd just like to say this again... if you don't like the religious posts, then DON'T READ THEM! I didn't have a problem with them at all... want to know why? BECAUSE I DIDN'T READ THEM! It's pretty simple.

------------------
2000 Yellow New Beetle 1.9T Manual

I admire the fact that Fred has built a great oasis on the WWW. It was a special place about 6 months ago, but lately has been lacking in substance. 98% of all pertinant information has been archieved, and the "fatihful" members were telling the newbies to search rather than ask. The real question should be... Why with over 3200 members do we have less than 5% doing 95% of the posting? Without some of the "local charactures," the site would really be soresville, but soot suspension and relay 109 talk can only sustain the masses for so long.

Mickey blowing his engine was met with more cheers than anything else because we all are starved for a "special project." If you noticed, individual posts from mickey were getting a 100 hits a day, with each guy waiting for the latest info. The fact that a special area for the project was created speaks volumes about how STAGNANT everything else was.

VDUBIWANNABEAMODERATOR just said above that 50% of all posts were in the GD area. This place through natural attrition... which nobody can prevent, has to grow or die, and pulling the plug on 50% of all posts is like peeing on the fire.

To me the answer is obvious... and is in balance with the laws of nature. Weed out the bad seeds, and you will solve the problem. How to determine a bad seed? Let the members privately e-mail the moderators, and when x-member gets to a predetermined limit, probation occurs, and then if negativity continues, banishment.

Vote them off the ISLAND... and I bet the ratings would be great!

I nominate......... (email me)

Ease up on mbciii, please! Yes, his reaction was excessive. Yes, he layed on the melodrama a bit.

But can anyone forget the ridiculous "Turbo Steve is a fraud!" B.S. that was going on several months back? When an awful lot of people thought that Steve was making up all the stuff about his TDI mods? That was some of the ugliest and most personal of the stuff I've ever seen on this forum.

Who stepped up and offered to be a "non-partisan" arbitrator, and made a special trip to meet Steve and put the whole controversy to bed?

mbciii.

-mickey

p.s. Everyone is valuable, whether you agree with their opinions de jour or not. Rather than shooting spitwads at him as he goes, why not invite him back? I did. Click on his forum "profile" for his e-mail address.