Rotella T6 in a PD engine?

Is anyone here using Rotella T6 in their PD? And if so, has anyone done an oil analysis? I'm leaning towards going with T6 for my CR, and would like to start using it in my PD as well. I used it once with no problems, but my tuner still thinks I should go for the more expensive 505 01 (not available locally).

this is all from the "what oil do i use" sticky, just paraphrased:

the 507 spec for common rails is due to the DPF becoming clogged with ash if other oils are used. oils in the CR's must also be able to tolerate some fuel dilution because of the regen cycles.

the 505 01 spec for PD is due to the high pressures in the contact surfaces of the cam and unit injectors. Increased cam wear is inevitable if lesser oils are used.

the likely consequences are pretty clear. you might be able to do T6 on an "emissions deleted" CR but i wouldn't want to risk the increased cam wear in a PD...

I don't have a pd (yet), but I wouldn't hesitate to use Rotella T6 in one if I did. The 505 stuff is no magical elixir. In fact, The 505 5w-30 oil is thought to be partly responsible for many early cam failures. I know your common rail is deleted like mine Paul, so I'd use it in that too. In fact I'm using it in my common rail at the moment.

Edit: check your email Paul, I think the green Castrol you got is supposed to be green.

There's a lot of us using T6 in our PD cars without issue.

I'm 100k on T6 on the original cam. Hasn't magically eaten any lobes sine switching to T6 when I bought the car.

If you check bobistheoilguy.Com, you see a few uoa's on T6 in pd engines. Nothing catastrophic.

turbobrick240 said:

I don't have a pd (yet), but I wouldn't hesitate to use Rotella T6 in one if I did. The 505 stuff is no magical elixir. In fact, The 505 5w-30 oil is thought to be partly responsible for many early cam failures. I know your common rail is deleted like mine Paul, so I'd use it in that too. In fact I'm using it in my common rail at the moment.

Edit: check your email Paul, I think the green Castrol you got is supposed to be green.

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When I bought the car, the last oil change on the paperwork I got showed 5W30, so I actually put in T6 for 5K (and changed again when I got to 210K, so I could get back on regular change intervals). My tuner kept steering me towards the 505 01 spec of 5W40, but it's not exactly easy to get, unless I order it online and wait a week for it to arrive. I just wanted to see what others had to say from UOA and etc.

This is also probably a different topic, but when running the car hard at times, does that lead to a loss of oil, where I need to replenish it before I do a complete change? I've noticed this on both cars, which have the same exhaust setups.

pkhoury said:

When I bought the car, the last oil change on the paperwork I got showed 5W30, so I actually put in T6 for 5K (and changed again when I got to 210K, so I could get back on regular change intervals). My tuner kept steering me towards the 505 01 spec of 5W40, but it's not exactly easy to get, unless I order it online and wait a week for it to arrive. I just wanted to see what others had to say from UOA and etc.

This is also probably a different topic, but when running the car hard at times, does that lead to a loss of oil, where I need to replenish it before I do a complete change? I've noticed this on both cars, which have the same exhaust setups.

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A lot of shops like to play things by the book. I can understand that. But tons of PD owners use RT6 with great results (as shown by UOA). If your cars are using less than 3-4 quarts per 10k miles, I wouldn't worry about it. A lot of idling and using the full powerband does tend to increase consumption. My car uses about 1-1.5 quarts per 10k.

T6 would be a better oil to use in the PD than would be a 505.01.

Turbo Diesel Truck is another to consider.

I maintain a PD with 300k on it that's seen nothing but T6 since it's first oil change. Still has the original cam.

I guess T6 it is. I just put it today in the CR (no DPF, so I don't need to worry about low ash 507 00). I added about a liter to the PD so it was back to a normal fill level.

As for oil consumption - if I'm losing about a liter or so after 5K, is it fine to top off, or better to do a complete change?

Yeah, just top 'er off, and motor on to 10k.

youll find pretty much everyone runs T6 or TDT in the PDs and cams wear the same or better than running 505.01 spec oil.

I run TDT (mobil1 turbo diesel truck) in everything I own, gas or diesel. motorcycles, chevy v8, caterpillar, TDI, Kubota, briggs and stratton, etc.

pkhoury said:

I guess T6 it is. I just put it today in the CR (no DPF, so I don't need to worry about low ash 507 00). I added about a liter to the PD so it was back to a normal fill level.

As for oil consumption - if I'm losing about a liter or so after 5K, is it fine to top off, or better to do a complete change?

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T6 is "low ash", as is all CJ-4 spec oil.

Kevinski4 said:

T6 is "low ash", as is all CJ-4 spec oil.

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Right. If we look at the jug, we find the API Label and find it says CJ-4. This isn't an odd-ball Jeep, but a specification, part of which states that it a low ash oil.

This totally changes all that jazz about "strictly sticking to 505 01 or 507 00."

If I still had my PD I would use the T6. I started using the TDT after the first 3 oil changes. I use the T6 in 2 MB 3.0 diesels with DPF and there is no issues. The T6 is about .8% ash (iirc) while there is a M1 oil that is lower at about .6% ash. Everything I have seen that is considered low ash is at 1% or lower.

Edit: I use the diesel oils in my lawnmower, power washer and the room mates Subaru Legacy.

It's about time to change oil in my lawnmower and 2 power washers, so I might take your advice and try T6 in those, too.

pkhoury said:

It's about time to change oil in my lawnmower and 2 power washers, so I might take your advice and try T6 in those, too.

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We used the non-synthetic Rotella in ALL of our engines on the Farm from the 80's though when we quit farming. We bought it by the barrel. I still burn it in things like my RV.

Currently have T6 in my 05 golf BEW but I will be switching back to Liqui Molly TopTec 4100. I talked to Prejad at PrecisionTuning and we had a talk about T6 and Liqui Molly and suggested to stick with TopTec 4100.

The only reason I tried T6 was because of the price and the few threads I saw. I think my car ran better with toptec 4100 and no problems throughout the Canadian winter but it is your choice if you want to run T6 or not seeing that many have chosen to and have not had any problems.

T6 for me and I'm at 300 000km. It's on sale right now at CT 99$ for a pail after 25$ rebate from shell.

I do add ZDDP additive to mine instead of oil when it gets off the top of the hashmarks on the dipstick. Zinc is what protects flat tappet cams.

ketchupshirt88 said:

this is all from the "what oil do i use" sticky, just paraphrased:

the 507 spec for common rails is due to the DPF becoming clogged with ash if other oils are used. oils in the CR's must also be able to tolerate some fuel dilution because of the regen cycles.

the 505 01 spec for PD is due to the high pressures in the contact surfaces of the cam and unit injectors. Increased cam wear is inevitable if lesser oils are used.

the likely consequences are pretty clear. you might be able to do T6 on an "emissions deleted" CR but i wouldn't want to risk the increased cam wear in a PD...

Click to expand...

The increased cam wear has been shown to be a result of using 5W30 oil instead of 5w40. This has been discussed thoroughly in this forum. The wear was also on cams that used 5W30 505.01 oil; 5W40 oiled cams didn't show as much wear.

I have ran RT6 for 40k in my '04 Beetle BEW and it has 186k on it and uses less than 1/2 qt. between changes at 10k. I put 4 qts. RT6 and 1 qt. of Lucas synthetic oil stabilizer and it uses it down to the full mark at the time it needs to be changed. The Lucas is slick as owl snot and I think it is better than the regular Lucas which is sooo thick. It regular Lucas is hard to put in the winter.

From their "Technical Data Sheet" it sounds like Lucas is describing "Slick 50". According to Amsoil, Lucas Oil Stabilizer may have a use with drag racers due to their high alcohol fuel and high horsepower but it isn't good for regular cars.

From http://ultimatesyntheticoil.com/facts_about_aftermarket_oil_additives/
Yes, but what about Lucas Oil Stabilizer?

Isn’t it used extensively in drag racing? Yes it is, and it’s a unique category in oil additives with a milder version of deception. With high-alcohol fuels and high horsepower, there is a huge problem with the engine oil becoming VERY rapidly diluted (thinned out) by the alcohol. To combat this problem, drag racers commonly use a very heavy racing oil (like 60 weight), then add Lucas to the oil because it increases the viscosity even more. That way, as the oil is being rapidly diluted going down the dragstrip, when they back off the throttle it might be a 30 or 40 weight oil instead of a 10 or 20 weight oil that would allow a lot of engine damage.
Now, what does ANY of that have to do with your vehicle? NOTHING ! Adding their product to your oil will increase the weight (viscosity) of your engine oil, which will decrease your fuel economy and increase your oil pressure. Increasing the oil pressure beyond the 30 or 40 weight that the engine’s designed for doesn’t help you. In fact, it’s a negative because it adds load to your starter and battery, especially in cold weather, and it makes your engine wear faster. That’s right – your engine wears faster for two main reasons: because during cold starts it takes longer to get the oil to all the components, and the higher oil pressure drop across your oil filter means that more of the oil will bypass the filter than normally occurs while your engine is warming up during driving. So you’re pumping additional wear particles through the engine rather than filtering them out.
The Lucas Oil Stabilizer marketing deception is that they want you to assume that what’s good in a top-fuel dragster is good for your engine, without actually making that claim on their bottle. Based on belief of that implied benefit, consumers use the product in every-day vehicle engines. The result? They get accelerated engine wear and reduced fuel economy in their engines.

I'm going to put real owl snot in my oil. Thanks for the idea.

Mike_04GolfTDI said:

I'm going to put real owl snot in my oil. Thanks for the idea.

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Owl poop would be easier to get, you just need to put a bucket under him.

What oil in Pumpe Düse engines... ?

pkhoury said:

Is anyone here using Rotella T6 in their PD engine ?
I'm leaning towards going with T6 for my CR engine,
and would like to start using it in my PD as well.
I used it once with no problems, but my tuner still thinks I should go for the more expensive 505.01

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The secret here is that you ask what oil to use in an PD ( Pumpe Düse ) engine !

ketchupshirt88 said:

The special VW specifications for PD engines is due to the high pressures in the contact surfaces of the cam and unit injectors.
Increased cam wear is inevitable if lesser oils are used.
the likely consequences are pretty clear...
...You might be able to use Rotella T6 in an CR engine but I wouldn't want to risk the increased cam wear in a PD engine.

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Exactly

Gotrek said:

I add ZDDP additive to mine engines.
Zinc is what protects flat tappet cams.

Click to expand...

Exactly


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VW 505.00
Passenger car DIESEL engine oil specification, minimum performance level CCMC PD-2.
Lists viscosities SAE 5W-50, 10W-50/60, 15W-40/50, 20W-40/50 requiring 13% max. evaporation loss and SAE 5W-30/40, 10W-30/40 requiring 15% max. evaporation loss.


VW 505.01
Special engine oil for VW Turbo DIESEL engines with pump-injector-unit
( Pumpe Düse ) and for the V8 CommonRail turbodiesel engines.
Meets ACEA B4 SAE 5W-40 specification.


VW 506.00
These oils are suitable for DIESEL engines with extended service intervals of up to 50,000 Km / 2 years.
Not for use on engines with a single injector pump.
Oil change is indicated by the electronic service indicator.
Viscosity is SAE 0W30.


VW 506.01
These oils are especially for "Pumpe-Düse" (unit injector or "PD" engines) running on extended service intervals (30,000 - 50,000km / 24 months).
Oil change is indicated by the electronic service indicator.


VW 507.00
Low SAPS oils suitable for almost all VAG diesel engines from 2000 onwards with extended service intervals,
unitary injector pumps and also Pumpe-Düse ("PD") engines.
Excludes V10, R5 engines and VW Commercial vehicles without fitted DPF (diesel particulate filters) – these must use a 506 01 specification oil.

This also is a neat tool:

https://online.lubrizol.com/relperftool/pc.html

I would use the T6 and skip the extra zddp additive.

2stroke said:

The secret here is that you ask what oil in an PD ( Pumpe Düse ) engine !
Exactly
Exactly


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VW 505.00
Passenger car DIESEL engine oil specification, minimum performance level CCMC PD-2.
Lists viscosities SAE 5W-50, 10W-50/60, 15W-40/50, 20W-40/50 requiring 13% max. evaporation loss and SAE 5W-30/40, 10W-30/40 requiring 15% max. evaporation loss.


VW 505.01
Special engine oil for VW Turbo DIESEL engines with pump-injector-unit
( Pumpe Düse ) and for the V8 CommonRail turbodiesel engines.
Meets ACEA B4 SAE 5W-40 specification.


VW 506.00
These oils are suitable for DIESEL engines with extended service intervals of up to 50,000 Km / 2 years.
Not for use on engines with a single injector pump.
Oil change is indicated by the electronic service indicator.
Viscosity is SAE 0W30.


VW 506.01
These oils are especially for "Pumpe-Düse" (unit injector or "PD" engines) running on extended service intervals (30,000 - 50,000km / 24 months).
Oil change is indicated by the electronic service indicator.


VW 507.00
Low SAPS oils suitable for almost all VAG diesel engines from 2000 onwards with extended service intervals,
unitary injector pumps and also Pumpe-Düse ("PD") engines.
Excludes V10, R5 engines and VW Commercial vehicles without fitted DPF (diesel particulate filters) – these must use a 506 01 specification oil.

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As has been shown here via oil analysis reports use of Rotella T6 5w40 is just fine since 505.01 rated oil is very hard to get locally (unless you live in the same towns as Aaron or Peter). If you CAN get a 505.01 rated oil, even then make sure it is 5w40. Using the 5w30 version is not as good for the cam.

romad said:

As has been shown here via oil analysis reports use of Rotella T6 5w40 is just fine since 505.01 rated oil is very hard to get locally (unless you live in the same towns as Aaron or Peter). If you CAN get a 505.01 rated oil, even then make sure it is 5w40. Using the 5w30 version is not as good for the cam.

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Which is why I changed it about a week after I bought it. The last oil change on the paperwork I got showed 5W30, and without knowing all the issues of the cam wear then, I figured 5W40 would be a safer bet.

turbobrick240 said:

I would use Rotella T6 oil in PD engines and skip the extra ZDDP additive.

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Why ?



Flat-Tappet Cams
The design of flat-tappet cams makes them especially vulnerable to wear.
As the name indicates, the tappet – or lifter – is flat.
During operation the surface of the cam lobe slides rapidly over the surface of the tappet, producing high friction and temperatures.
The camshaft and lifters are responsible for triggering the precisely tuned movements of the valvetrain.
Without the protective film barrier provided by ZDDP, the cams and lifters wear from the force of operation, negatively affecting cam and valve operation.


How ZDDP Works
As temperatures rise and surfaces come closer together, ZDDP decomposes, and the resulting chemistry protects critical metal surfaces.
When parts move during operation, any sliding or rolling motion takes place on top of or within the ZDDP anti-wear film, which reduces metal-to-metal contact.
This is especially important in engines with flat-tappet camshafts, which puts more stress on the engine.
High-tension valve springs, often used in racing applications, also increase the potential for cam wear and require additional ZDDP.