Valero Diesel

psaboic

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SW WA
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Just want to share my experience.

We took the 02 Jetta (TDI of course) from Lemoore CA to Washington State for the holidays. Not wanting to deal with Oregon and the "attendent only" fuleing issue, I decided to fill up before I left Calif. I stopped in Yreka at a Valero station to fill up. Never heard of them or used them before, but at 2.41 a gal I figured I would give it a shot.

Long story short, within 10 minutes, the car ran a LOT smoother and quieter than I have heard in a long time. Running 75 MPH all through Oregon and Washington netted me a solid 57 MPG (my usual at 75 is about 49). :D

Anyway, I was so impressed, that on the way home, I stopped at the same station again to fill up just to see if it was a fluke. I also asked the owner if he knew the Cetane rating of their Diesel. He pulled out his fuel receipts for the last 6 months and showed me that they sell nothing but 51 Cetane diesel!:eek:

I pulled out of the station, got back on the freeway, and at 75 to 80, the motor just purred the rest of the way home. Checking again I got another 56.3 MPG on that fuel!

Anyone else have good luck with Valero? First time I have ever used them, but I'm impressed.

Glenn
 

b4black

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All CA diesel is about 50 cetane.

Cetane has nothing to do with fuel economy. Economy and power are related to the fuel's density (BTU content).
 

vwestlife

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central NJ, USA
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We have some Valero stations here in NJ which do sell diesel, but who knows if it's that same good stuff.

A quick Google search for "valero diesel" turned up a press release dated February 11, 2003, stating "Valero Energy Corporation (NYSE: VLO) is the first refiner in the U.S. Southwest to introduce Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD), a specially refined diesel fuel that has significantly lower sulfur content than regular on-road diesel."
 

naturist

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Sorry, Old_Navy, but b4black is more or less correct. "Cetane" measures ONLY how easy the stuff is to ignite, specifically the delay between injection and ignition in a specific test motor.

There is some anecdotal evidence that quicker ignition may improve mileage, but this is more likely due to psychological effects.

I'd offer you the evidence of folks experiences with biodiesel: switching from burning pure cetane 40 petro to 50 cetane pure biodiesel, which has about 10% lower energy density, folks generally report a few percent drop in mileage.

So if psaboic saw in increase in mileage, good for him. But the change he cites may or may not be related to the fact the fuel also had a higher cetane rating. The change he saw is certainly well within the variation to be expected based upon a head or tail wind, more or less use of cruise control, varied tire pressures, etc.

The fact that his engine smoothed out, now, is clearly a function of the higher cetane. That is, after all, one of the effects directly attributable to the cetane rating of the fuel.
 

myke_w

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But if most of the diesel in ca is 50+, why would it have run smoother? Perhaps the place where he filled up was several degrees cooler than his usual fill up spot, making the fuel more cooler and more dense? I can attest to wild variations in mileage between different fuels. This one place I fill up with gives me no less than 44, another place I've routinely used when on the road gave me no better than 43. I had always suspected that it was a high kerosene content in the fuel, being in the east using winterized fuel etc. Like maybe some places make winter fuel by using an additive package, other use kero etc.
 

Old Navy

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Cetane does in any research I had done in years past have an effect on mileage. The reason(s) cited was less power loss (or more power) which inproved or provided more power when needed. Some what akin to the use of too low of octane in a gasser, you have a power loss. I know that kind of comparing apples to oranges, but the effect is sort of the same.

Large diesel OTR semi's have reported increased MPG's from use of Biodiesel, generally it's is considered from moving to 50 cetane fuel from 40 cetane fuel and the effect of the cleaning and lubing of the fuel system. I know when I used 50 cetane AMOCO in my TDI or MB I would see a difference if I had filled with 2 gallons or less in the tank. In my MB it would make about 3 mpg and the car excellerated better (thats a big deal in non turbo diesel), in the wife's Jetta we didn't notice much difference in mpg (hard to since wife's driving was so varied) we did however notice a really big difference of high speed preformance of about 15 mph topend increase over 42 cetane fuel.

What I am getting at is a better fuel burn has to result in better mpg's and power. I seem to remember that with cetane increase there is a BTU increase (talking fossel fuel), more BT more power and mpg's. When using biofuel which has less BTU, but still has a high cetane value, yes in a small high revving auto diesel would result in less power & mpg under normal circumstances. The whole thing here is it's not really karge differences we are talking about, and is easly skewed by conditions of cars and driver efforts or control and conditions.

I would say most of us here are not anal retentive enough to really notice our daily differences in driving or a 2% to 5 % increase or decrease of mileage. I not under normal conditions, because $10 or $20 in the cost of fuel increase or decrease is not something that has any effect on my life. Myself I realize my Magnum can get 28 to 30 mpg if I drive 60 or 65 mph, but I don't like driving that slow as a rule and cruise at 75 to 85 mph and get 22 to 25 mpg when on the road.
 

b4black

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If cetane had a positive effect on fuel mileage then there would be significant pressure from the EPA and OEM's for 50+ cetane in all states. Any increase in fuel economy would lower emissions and extend our crude reserves. That hasn't happened because cetane is not related to fuel economy.


If you monitor cetane index vs. fuel density, you will see the most higher cetane fuels have lower density and therefore lower BTU content.

Increasing cetane will result in increased production costs and a fuel economy penalty. Tell a trucker it will cost more, not go as far, but fell smoother and see what he says. They prefer higher density over higher cetane which is why we have the fuel we do.
 

TDI2Fan

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I stopped purchasing Fasmart Fuel in VA after Valero took over for Amoco. Not sure of the impact on fuel mileage, I do track each tank, do not have my book handy. I started purchasing fuel from Raceway and seem to consistently get better fuel economy. Most trips I average 55 MPG with 15's. Best I can do with the 18's is 50 MPG. In my area Valero just does not sell enough Volume of Diesel to take the chance. I have tried B20 from the Pentagon with no perceived change in Economy. I did notice a distinct change in the aroma between Dino and Bio.

Just my .02.
 

gtveloce

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I just drove passed a Valero station yesterday (Beach blvd in huntington beach,ca) and saw 2.53, and was wondering whether I should give them a try.
I filled at Shell last nite @ 2.79. BTW, I was trying to look up the Shell DIESEL specs on their website, there is not a single page on their website mentioning DIESEL! :confused: :confused:
 

Lightwave

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I have been running Valero diesel from time to time here, and the quality seems to vary, although overall I can't say I've ever had a bad tank of fuel from a Valero station. I have had better luck with Valero fuel than with Shell in this area, and the Shell usually costs about .10/gallon more than Valero. In this area, whenever I see a stations tanks being refilled, it's usually a semi tanker with some generic trucking company logo on it rather than a tanker with the logo of the oil company itself. In fact, I don't remember ever seeing a tanker with the Valero brand on it. I suspect that many of the stations get their fuel from the same pipeline/storage facility, although they may have different additive packages. Anyway, that was what I saw when I worked in a pipeline/storage facility many years ago. I'm pretty sure there isn't a Valero refinery within several hundred miles of here, but I don't know if they have a pipeline/storage facility nearby. I know there are Conoco/Phillips66 refineries and piplines nearby. I suspect that most of our fuel in this area comes from those refineries.
 

brownnugen

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I'm in Houston and use Valero (used to be Diamond Shamrock) diesel pretty much exclusively. Never had a complaint.
 

TDI2Fan

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Lightwave said:
I have been running Valero diesel from time to time here, and the quality seems to vary, although overall I can't say I've ever had a bad tank of fuel from a Valero station. I have had better luck with Valero fuel than with Shell in this area, and the Shell usually costs about .10/gallon more than Valero. In this area, whenever I see a stations tanks being refilled, it's usually a semi tanker with some generic trucking company logo on it rather than a tanker with the logo of the oil company itself. In fact, I don't remember ever seeing a tanker with the Valero brand on it. I suspect that many of the stations get their fuel from the same pipeline/storage facility, although they may have different additive packages. Anyway, that was what I saw when I worked in a pipeline/storage facility many years ago. I'm pretty sure there isn't a Valero refinery within several hundred miles of here, but I don't know if they have a pipeline/storage facility nearby. I know there are Conoco/Phillips66 refineries and piplines nearby. I suspect that most of our fuel in this area comes from those refineries.
After the Amoco / Valero Switch, I called BP. Spoke with an Engineer about the change. It seems that Valero purchase infrastructure and refineries from BP. How many I am not sure. At the time I was trying to find BP PremiumBlend in Northern VA. He sent me a list (how current unknown) of every BP/Amoco staion in the US and what fuels they sold. Found the fuel but it is not sold in enough quantities to chance a purchase. I continue to say "chance" due to my desire to preclude purchasing "infected" Dino. I have always been told and read that I should purchase from a volume dealer WRT Diesel.

I know of folks with the Ford PowerStroke that regularly get "water" warnings when they purchase fuel from Gas Stations (Valero) in my area. That is not to say every time they purchase bot often enough for me. It happens at other Branded stations as well.

Not trying to dilute this thread. Apologize if I have!
 

gearhead

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Weirton, WV (close to Pittsburgh)
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BP used to own this facility in Lima (http://www.valero.com/Visit+Our+Refineries/Lima) years back. Valero, the current owner, purchased it from Premcore.

The refinery processes light sweet & light sour crude (http://www.mcilvainecompany.com/RefineryAPC/subscriber/refinery%20profiles/_refineDB/refstate3.asp?ref=134), but unfortunately is looking to process heavy sour crude from Western Canada. The fuels will most likely be highly cracked & low in cetane. Typically high cracked fuels have a reduced shelf life also and a higher percentage of areromatics (cetane detractors).
 

Old Navy

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Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers: "We believe that higher cetane levels, along with other clean fuel parameters -- for example, 5 ppm maximum sulfur, 15% by volume maximum aromatics and good lubricity (lower than 0.400 mm mean wear scar as measured by HFRR) -- will be critical for enabling diesel technology to penetrate the light-duty fleet in this country...
"Light-duty vehicles are more sensitive than heavy-duty vehicles to cetane effects. Indeed, some of our members have provided proprietary information to EPA that shows EGR-equipped light-duty diesel vehicles responding favorably to cetane ... The Alliance recommends that EPA raise the national minimum natural cetane level to 55, or the cetane index to 52."


Intereting reading out there on the www about diesel fuel and next 4 years.
 

Old Navy

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5 Tips to Improve Winter Diesel Fuel Performance
Diesel specialists from International Truck and Engine discuss fuel choices for top performance in cold weather.
The quality of diesel fuel that owners choose will affect fuel consistency, engine performance, and fuel economy during winter months. Learning about the chemistry and characteristics of diesel fuel will help truck owners make better decisions at the pump, giving their engines the best chance to perform at a high level all the way through the first thaw.
Diesel fuel makeup
First, it is important to understand diesel fuel characteristics. Diesel fuels are derived from middle distillates, petroleum oils with higher boiling ranges than gasoline. Because converting fuel to heat is what creates power from an engine, the higher boiling ranges allows diesel engines to provide more horsepower than their gasoline counterparts. The boiling range, or energy value of the fuel, is measured in British thermal units, which represent the amount of heat necessary to raise the temperature of one pound of water one degree Fahrenheit. On average, diesel fuel contains 138,000 Btu per gallon, compared to 124,000 Btu per gallon of gasoline. This additional energy contributes to the fuel efficiency diesel engine owners enjoy.
Cetane
This colorless, liquid hydrocarbon holds excellent ignition qualities, and is a term closely associated with diesel operation in cold weather. Fuels are compared to cetane to determine their ignition quality. Higher cetane values improve the engine’s cold-starting performance and reduce white smoke. When diesel fuel first enters the combustion chamber, there is a lag time until the fuel ignites, but that lag time can be shortened with a high cetane number. Most electronic diesel engines require a cetane rating of 45 or higher. In cold temperatures, a vehicle will respond to a high cetane rating with better engine performance, better fuel economy, and better exhaust emissions.
On the other hand, a low cetane fuel (below 40) will cause white smoke, poor fuel economy, and the lack of power in cold weather. Minimally, 40 cetane is desired, and can be found at most fueling stations, but premium diesel fuel (above 45 cetane) will provide increased power and fuel economy. You will not find the cetane number on fuel pumps, but can ask the attendant at your area fuel stations to determine which location carries premium fuel.
Lubricity
In addition to providing energy, diesel fuel doubles as a lubricant for diesel injection equipment, such as rotary distributor pumps and injectors. Fuel must be capable of lubricating the system components in order to prolong the fuel system. Because of the diesel’s dual purpose, the viscosity or weight of the fuel is vital to its performance. In normal temperatures, higher viscosity fuels, such as Diesel Fuel Number Two, or DF2, will perform better than the thinner, lower-viscosity fuels in automotive diesel engines, which can be hard on the injectors. International’s Power Stroke Diesel engine’s electro-hydraulic fuel system design is much less vulnerable to lower lubricity fuel than mechanical systems. And this bodes well for the vehicle’s performance in cold weather.
A test called SL BOCLE, which can be performed at your local International dealership, will measure the fuel’s ability to lubricate and express the lubricity in grams of load. Many engine manufacturers require a minimum SL BOCLE rating of 3,100 grams, and that is the common rating found at diesel fuel stations. The higher the value, the better the lubricating ability.
Cloud point and pour point
As the temperature drops, diesel fuel will thicken. It is important to purchase diesel fuel with a high cloud point for cold weather operations. The cloud point refers to the temperature at which diesel fuel begins to thicken and cloud. The pour point refers to the temperature as it thickens further and will no longer pour. Some engines will fail to run at the cloud point, but all engines will fail at the pour point. Usually, the cloud point and pour point are about 15 to 20 degrees apart. Both points vary greatly, but generally, fuels reach the cloud point at 40 degrees F, and the pour point is reached at temperatures below 20 degrees F.
Winterized fuel
To maximize power and prevent gelling in the winter months, a blend of DF1 and DF2 (winterized fuel) is recommended because it contains far less paraffin, a substance naturally found in diesel fuel. High amounts of paraffin will crystallize at the pour point and clog your filters, crippling your engine. DF1 contains less paraffin that DF2, but it also produces less heat, causing an engine’s power and fuel economy to suffer slightly. Using a mix of the two fuels will balance your diesel engine’s power and fuel economy with the confidence you gain knowing that your engine is protected from wax formation throughout the winter.
This article courtesy of International Truck and Engine Corporation, Warrenville, Illinois.​

More research from the www. :D
 

Ernie Rogers

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Pleasant Grove, Utah
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Thanks, Glenn,

I have been filling up at a Valero station in Fresno. On the last tankfull, I got less than 40 mpg driving around town (short trips), but I got over 60 mpgs driving on the highway.

Ernie Rogers

psaboic said:
Just want to share my experience.

We took the 02 Jetta (TDI of course) from Lemoore CA to Washington State for the holidays. Not wanting to deal with Oregon and the "attendent only" fuleing issue, I decided to fill up before I left Calif. I stopped in Yreka at a Valero station to fill up. Never heard of them or used them before, but at 2.41 a gal I figured I would give it a shot.

Long story short, within 10 minutes, the car ran a LOT smoother and quieter than I have heard in a long time. Running 75 MPH all through Oregon and Washington netted me a solid 57 MPG (my usual at 75 is about 49). :D

Anyway, I was so impressed, that on the way home, I stopped at the same station again to fill up just to see if it was a fluke. I also asked the owner if he knew the Cetane rating of their Diesel. He pulled out his fuel receipts for the last 6 months and showed me that they sell nothing but 51 Cetane diesel!:eek:

I pulled out of the station, got back on the freeway, and at 75 to 80, the motor just purred the rest of the way home. Checking again I got another 56.3 MPG on that fuel!

Anyone else have good luck with Valero? First time I have ever used them, but I'm impressed.

Glenn
 

Audi5000TDI

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Over 60? That could be all the way up to 69.99 mpg Ernie... I think curious folks need to check the December Mileage contest around Dec 28th for Ernies post and a more scientific number of MPG he got of Valero.
 

TornadoRed

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psaboic said:
Anyone else have good luck with Valero? First time I have ever used them, but I'm impressed.
There aren't that many Valero stations around here, but that makes sense I think; Valero is mainly a refining company, that owns some stations obtained as part of a recent acquisition. One that I know of used to be an Ultramar-brand station; not sure who owned Ultramar.

Looking at my spreadsheet... I've bought diesel at Valero stations about 7 or 8 times in the last year. Mileage was no different than from other sources.
 

Audi5000TDI

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All it means is that the last lot of oil that Valero bought and refined in Martinez. SF Bay area, is a particulary strong lot, or that on a long trip it takes less time to clean out your injector nozzles and give an efficient burning, well atomized spray pattern, that yields high mpg.
 

psaboic

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SW WA
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Great discussion guys.

Just for the record, I'm not saying the fuel exclusively was the reason behind my increased mileage, but I believe it was definitely a factor. Up to the point that I fueled up with the Valero the first time, I had been running on the freeway for about 450 miles and the motor was not as smooth, and I got only about 50 MPG for that stretch.

After I fueled up, the motor seemed to smooth out and running the same speeds, my mileage increased to about 57 MPG. (Yes, I topped off and vented both times, to make sure I was putting in as close to the same amount of fuel as possible each time)

So, feel free to draw your own conclusions. I think it was a couple of good tanks of fuel. The only real variable in the whole thing was the fuel. All I know is the car ran better and got better mileage.

Glenn
 

vwestlife

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central NJ, USA
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b4black said:
All CA diesel is about 50 cetane.
FWIW, Chevron claims "Most diesel fuel in California today is produced to a certified ALAD (Alternative Low Aromatics Diesel) formula, with typical fuels having about 160 ppm sulfur, 21% aromatics, and a 53 cetane number."

Also, Texas Low Emissions Diesel (TxLED), which as of October 1, 2005 became mandatory in 110 counties in eastern and central Texas, is required to have no greater than 500 ppm sulfur and 10% aromatics, and a minimum of 48 cetane.

However, in both cases (California and Texas), Chevron says that fuel suppliers can basically fudge these numbers to an extent, as long as they meet a certain emissions performance goal.
 

cp

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usa
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That article from International reads as if it were written by a journalism student--all regurgitated info.

Both points vary greatly, but generally, fuels reach the cloud point at 40 degrees F, and the pour point is reached at temperatures below 20 degrees F.
I would like to see diesel fuel that clouds at +40F. Every time this story gets re-told it goes up a few degrees. And "pour point is reached....below 20F"? Exactly how much below is, I guess, left to the reader's imagination as there are roughly 479 more degrees below that before we hit absolute zero at which point it will certainly cease to pour.

For a good read on diesel fuel, try the Chevron site or if you can find it on the web, the Cummins Service Bulletin 3379001-05.
 

Old Navy

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cp said:
That article from International reads as if it were written by a journalism student--all regurgitated info.



I would like to see diesel fuel that clouds at +40F. Every time this story gets re-told it goes up a few degrees. And "pour point is reached....below 20F"? Exactly how much below is, I guess, left to the reader's imagination as there are roughly 479 more degrees below that before we hit absolute zero at which point it will certainly cease to pour.

For a good read on diesel fuel, try the Chevron site or if you can find it on the web, the Cummins Service Bulletin 3379001-05.
I have quoted the above mentioned and got pretty much the same reaction from some that you had about International article. I just post the findings and let others decide what they think is correct or wrong.

The problem I have is people nit picking these statements not realizing these are retyped by someone then posted and mistakes get made or lingo is changed that seems small to those doing the posting. without the info put into normal people speak, 97% of the people here would not have a clue as to what was being said, it's the translator that often screws us up. If the info is in PDF format it is most likely word for word from the horse's mouth so to speak. I do babble on don't I cp.
 

MileageDude

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Mar 3, 2003
psaboic said:
Anyone else have good luck with Valero? First time I have ever used them, but I'm impressed.

Glenn
Just thought I'd make you laugh. Happy New Year.:D

 

cp

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usa
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Old Navy, I apologize if I came across as being in 'kill the messenger' mode. Not my intention at all.
 

Old Navy

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cp said:
Old Navy, I apologize if I came across as being in 'kill the messenger' mode. Not my intention at all.
I know you were not trying to "kill the Messenger", and took no offence. I just was making general comment and trying poorly to explain my position as to the general type of info used and or what happens to it on ocassions and how I ment the info to be used.

Is that as clear as mud what I just said??? :eek:
 

b4black

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IL
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The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers won't get what they are asking for. Even if they can prove that LDD can benefit from higher cetane, it's a tail wagging the dog. LDD are what - 3% of the market?

Unless the EPA shows that cetane is related to emissions, it's not thier call. The ASTM sets minimum performance standards.

The NCWM has defined premium diesel at 47 cetane. LDD owners need to find and purchase premium diesel. Retail sites will sell only what customers are willing to buy.
 
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