VW Scirocco CR170 - CBBB - performance build

Macradiators.com

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Location
Romania
TDI
2.0 CR 360hp
Putting 3mm oversize valves is almost impossible because you have to increase valve seats a lot and there is not much room left. Sounds too optimistic to be true.

You might wanna check dimensions you offered above because are totally wrong :)
 

xjay1337

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Location
United Kingdom
TDI
Scirocco CR170.
Hi shortysclimbin
Thanks for the post. Many of the issues we are aware of and have already sorted.
Gearbox supports will be done when I eventually get around to switching to a lower mileage gearbox and fit an LSD.

I have not had swirl flaps since originally fitting the gtb kit. Had no issues without them.

Hopefully starting the teardown soon, just finalising some parts.
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
Two years ago I ran into the same issues. I actually sold my performance cams, ported, head, dual valve springs, and custom valves last year to a guy in the usa.

Some helpful info maybe:

1) the v6 3.0l TDI CR motors have valves that are about 3mm larger in diameter than oem and same dimensions. they are also sodium filled! I'd suggest running those and just changing the slope angle and valve seat angles on them to fit your needs.

2) the oem intake valve ports split the air and have a very very aggressive reflow swirl built into one of the intakes for low RPM swirl and emissions. Removal of that will drastically help higher RPM but may mean more emissions on lower RPMs. Since you have a good tuner who isn't minding to tinker with new things, (unlike our USA tuners). I'd suggest you keep the intake flapper valves and use the controls to flow more at lower RPM through the single swirl valves that are like the MK4 VE heads. Those intake tracks I'd suggest to only clean them up and worry about the valve seat angles at first! By doing this you will drive a large volume of air at lower rpm to the swirl ports and you can take the old swirl ports and create them into straight feed valves like gas cars for higher RPM. Watch your flow ratios though to make sure you don't kill the swirl and 80% intake to exhaust flow ratio.

3) The cams which have been tested as drop in were used on stock heads. I suspect the flow ports in the head design are actually the limiting factors. Cams on top of a good port job may drastically increase your power potential at higher rpm if you can keep your fuel pressures up in the rail.

4) with the CP3 we were still seeing some fuel rail pressure drops. This was resolved by replacing the stock engine bay electric fuel pump with a heavy duty diesel one that the flows 3 times more pressure.

5) watch that transmission 4/5 gear spread. at the ~390ftlb these manuals have a tendency to walk the gears apart on the 02S transmissions. you might want to get that brace in there if it isn't there already.
Id be happy to hear valve pn and engine code from this v6 engine with 3mm bigger valves. Last time I checked valves where larger, but less than one mm
 

BleachedBora

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Oct 16, 2003
Location
Gresham, Oregon
TDI
'81 DMC-12, '15 GL350 CDI 275 hp/448 tq - '81 Caddy CJAA, '05 E320 CDI 250hp/450 tq, '23 ID4 AWD Pro S Plus
Love the new cluster, excellent build!
-BB
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Two years ago I ran into the same issues. I actually sold my performance cams, ported, head, dual valve springs, and custom valves last year to a guy in the usa.

Some helpful info maybe:

1) the v6 3.0l TDI CR motors have valves that are about 3mm larger in diameter than oem and same dimensions. they are also sodium filled! I'd suggest running those and just changing the slope angle and valve seat angles on them to fit your needs.

2) the oem intake valve ports split the air and have a very very aggressive reflow swirl built into one of the intakes for low RPM swirl and emissions. Removal of that will drastically help higher RPM but may mean more emissions on lower RPMs. Since you have a good tuner who isn't minding to tinker with new things, (unlike our USA tuners). I'd suggest you keep the intake flapper valves and use the controls to flow more at lower RPM through the single swirl valves that are like the MK4 VE heads. Those intake tracks I'd suggest to only clean them up and worry about the valve seat angles at first! By doing this you will drive a large volume of air at lower rpm to the swirl ports and you can take the old swirl ports and create them into straight feed valves like gas cars for higher RPM. Watch your flow ratios though to make sure you don't kill the swirl and 80% intake to exhaust flow ratio.

3) The cams which have been tested as drop in were used on stock heads. I suspect the flow ports in the head design are actually the limiting factors. Cams on top of a good port job may drastically increase your power potential at higher rpm if you can keep your fuel pressures up in the rail.

4) with the CP3 we were still seeing some fuel rail pressure drops. This was resolved by replacing the stock engine bay electric fuel pump with a heavy duty diesel one that the flows 3 times more pressure.

5) watch that transmission 4/5 gear spread. at the ~390ftlb these manuals have a tendency to walk the gears apart on the 02S transmissions. you might want to get that brace in there if it isn't there already.
You kept the auxiliary fuel pump with the cp3? I don't know if that was a good idea.
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
depends one th eflavour of cp3. with some it is not adviseable to run positive pressure to fuel inlet, and definately not in the amount that a stock cp4 liftpump provides.

reason for this that some cp3 have the case pressure relief back to inlet, and some to the outlet. if its to the inlet, the case pressure will rise 1:1 with feed pressure and this will make the metering valve flow very different as what the will believe it flows.
 

xjay1337

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Location
United Kingdom
TDI
Scirocco CR170.
Love the new cluster, excellent build!
-BB
Thanks for checking in :)

Finishing the rebuild of my CR170 with ported head. Many thanks as always to Bobby.
I would literally be stuck without him, and it's so nice to have someone who actively wants you to push things further and works to such a high and consistent quality.

Here is the original head.

I've owned it since 100k miles, and been running 2.4 bar boost and for around 50k. Lots of track and drag use.

Been ran on Millers 5w40 or 10w50 CFS NT and changed at least every 10k.

It's now sitting on 180k miles

20170409_204248 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr


Valves, no build up to speak of.

20170409_204300 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr

Very happy to see the condition of the original head. These are good solid engines.

I will be able to share further news with you all soon.
 
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xjay1337

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Location
United Kingdom
TDI
Scirocco CR170.
We have finished the rebuild of the engine and we are very happy with the results.

2017-04-16_09-46-10 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr

IMG_20170415_212828_762 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr

This has been an awful lot of work which without Bobby would not have been possible.
We have many custom fabricated parts for this build.
BSR ported head, bsr custom valve springs, bsr cp3 pump, custom injectors, all engine software and engine build done by Bobby.

We are very very happy with this result. EGTs under 900 at WOT. Still making over 300bhp at 5200rpm.
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
Looking awesome! Will you take it to the strip?

Any reason why you didnt move battery to the trunk? Would be first I would do for a track car :)
 

xjay1337

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Location
United Kingdom
TDI
Scirocco CR170.
Looking awesome! Will you take it to the strip?

Any reason why you didnt move battery to the trunk? Would be first I would do for a track car :)
Thanks you sir :)

We are going to the strip this weekend as long as weather is good.
(So far it is).

Battery relocation is something I may look into now as I have another car as a daily.

Very nice results! What was the engine like after 180k Pistons/bores etc?

Thanks :D
Engine was fine, very good condition. A few parts had started to show their age (aux belt tensioner etc) but mechanically good. I had money aside to buy a low mileage engine but it was not needed.

Wow! Those are some fantastic results :cool:
Thank you!! We are very happy. I still can't believe how scary it is when it comes on boost lol.
Many thanks for following along :)
 

xjay1337

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Location
United Kingdom
TDI
Scirocco CR170.
In other news, I decided to paint my front calipers to match the rears.

Before:



After:

2017-06-13_10-44-26 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr

Also went to AKS and got the clutch swapped out - FINALLY - it lasted about 2 days after mapping. Nearly 60k on the previous 6 Paddle and DMF kit so lasted very well indeed.
Replaced with new 6 Paddle unit and SMF. SMF comes with higher clamp force cover plate.


This was the flywheel when it came out.

20170608_140536 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr

The clutch plate itself had hardly worn. But the flywheel and cover plate had seen better days.
It does rattle quite a bit on idle without the clutch depressed but it revs quicker and just feels nicer in general.

Also fitted a clutch bypass switch. You always had to have the clutch depressed to start the car before but now it doesn't need that.
This was done as when fitting SMF kits it can damage the thrust bearing which can kill the engine so better to be safe than sorry.


While it was in the air we did the oil and filter. It was replaced when Bobby rebuilt the engine and now swapped it again just to be safe. Now running Millers CFS NT+ 5w40.

Done around 2000 miles on the new head turbo etc and nothing has broken or blown up :)
 

xjay1337

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Location
United Kingdom
TDI
Scirocco CR170.
Got all the suspension on on Tuesday. New Bilstein PSS10/B16. It took a bit longer than anticipated so I ended up getting a lift home on Tuesday evening and collected the car on Thursday.

Also got full Superpro rear bush kit, new drop links front and rear, new rear top mounts, and some modifications to my turbo intake pipe and boost pipework.

It's amazing!! So much better. You can certainly tell the suspension is a quality item rather than a budget lowering option. It's actually ever so slightly higher than it was before now too but hey ho.


IMG_20170711_194314_205 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr


FB_IMG_1500282516058 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr

Tested it out at Donnington Park on Sunday at VAG Tuner VW show.
As a package it was very, very capable. Next chassis mod is a LSD but given the power and torque it does manage really well without one.
Unfortunately I got black flagged twice as I was tripping the noise meters ... 98db driveby, I was around 101 db.

Few pics from the trackday a week ago. The car behaved perfectly.


Cheers Jhk__photography for pics. by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr


Cheers Jhk__photography for pics. by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr
 
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xjay1337

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Location
United Kingdom
TDI
Scirocco CR170.
I'm sure you could just pretend it's a Golf and import it earlier, right?

Few updates!!

I did a day at Cadwell. Had to bleed my brakes in the paddock as I just didn't have time prior, and the first session boiled my fluid.
No issues for the rest of the day.

EN9I8739-3 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr


A video from my friend in his 310hp Mk5 Edition 30 chasing, with similar handling mods.
https://youtu.be/QoRQGNhLvVA?t=189


And onboard for a couple of laps, following a TTE420 powered ED30 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf6T81cX9sg


And also at Silverstone on Sunday.
I did try to get some footage but my camera didn't save it!

CT-2130-(ZF-6182-13377-1-002)-1 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr

My 1st gear synchro has broken so the work around was either to wait 5 or so seconds from pressing the clutch down before engaging 1st, or put it into 2nd and then straight into 1st.

This worked for a while but now 2nd gear has done the same. Which makes the car incredibly difficult to drive around town.

A few weeks ago I bought a gearbox from Ebay to be rebuilt with a limited slip diff (Peloquin) and all the internal strengthening mods. Alex from AKS is a very busy guy and finally got around to stripping it down.



received_10155918928887244 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr

I am not sure when the gearbox will be ready but I'm hoping soon then it's just a case of getting everything swapped over.


Car is now at 188k and having done 4 trackdays since being rebuilt and not having any other mechanical issues.
 

xjay1337

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Location
United Kingdom
TDI
Scirocco CR170.
My gearbox issues have finally been fixed. The new gearbox with LSD and other modifications has been installed and works perfectly. Very happy, completely changes the driving characteristics, and it's nice to have 1st and 2nd gear back.

received_10156039073962244 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr

received_10156042100272244 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr

received_10156060794312244 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr

20180104_114121 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr

20180104_153426-01 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr
 

xjay1337

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Location
United Kingdom
TDI
Scirocco CR170.
It's great to see that you got the trans sorted out and beefed up. What LSD did you go with?
Cheers ... made such a difference ..

I went with a Peloquin. My friend had put one aside for me.

The new gearbox feels lovely and tight, hopefully it will last me the rest of the time I have the car.

I aim to have more news regarding power soon. :)
 
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xjay1337

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Location
United Kingdom
TDI
Scirocco CR170.
Not a full update (I will update soon) - but we achieved this today.
395hp
Around 660nm
No nos (straight diesel)
20c+ ambient temps.
2018-04-18_07-33-09 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr
edit: Further update
Had a bit of a nightmare over the last few months.
So we had a new turbo built. It has some very fancy wheels.
however being brand new, when it was first fitted it had a very loud high pitched whining which was not normal upon initial installation.
we had it rebuilt (again, for a new turbo!) and the balancing was so far out the balancing machine that it cut off. seems like in soviet russia, turbo balances you.
it was balanced and came back, the noise was gone but it was chugging out a lot of smoke (this is oil / white smoke , not black from fuel). this is with a 1mm oil restrictor as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRo4C_pAyIw
So we had to have it rebuilt AGAIN. 3rd time lucky. And a lot of wasted hours for Bobby taking him away from other projects and family time.
this time by an old friend of Bobbys was brought in, who have to say did a really good job and it is much better now.
Now it was sorted we also plumbed in water cooling, and wired up a sensor to measure turbo shaft speed and got that working with factory inputs.
IMG-20180411-WA0000 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr
IMG-20180411-WA0001 by Fat Bear Photography, on Flickr
After a lot of tuning work from Bobby we went to Surrey Rolling Road, unfortunately it so happened to be the hottest day of the year yesterday 18th April with ambient temps between 20 and 25c
Nevertheless the end results were 395hp and 660nm torque. Very happy.
 
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Bobby Singh

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2009
Location
England,Middlesex
TDI
Audi 3.0 TDI
Excellent result finally Jay
Been a long time coming.
Worth mentioning bottom end is completely stock (with 190k)

Now remove the table at the back and put down a decent time :)
 

adjat84th

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Location
Virginia Beach, VA
TDI
'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
Impressive numbers and awesome build!

Curious about this below, this is the first I've read of such a practice. My jetta's switch has been dead for about 150k miles and I actually really like just getting in a starting the car. Wouldn't mind figuring it out on the Golf :)
Both cars have SMF.

Also fitted a clutch bypass switch. You always had to have the clutch depressed to start the car before but now it doesn't need that.
This was done as when fitting SMF kits it can damage the thrust bearing which can kill the engine so better to be safe than sorry.
 
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