My car died on the highway today, please help!

Lightman

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2002
Location
Sunny Florida
I was towing my quad with my '02 tdi to go riding today and the car just died on the highway. I was doing 75 or so and accelerating. I pulled over to the side of the road, changed fuel filters thinking that my 2 micron might be clogged....it eventually started and got me home, but still runs badly. Any time i hit the throttle over 3k it surges and shudders, and I saw a puff of white smoke. Reduced power for sure. I checked the MAF with vag-com, it is within specs.

One fault code found

1 DTC Found- 17656- Injection Start Regulation: Control Deviation
35-00 - -

I read in the faq that sometimes chipped vehicles can suddenly go to reduced power mode when too much fuel is requested. Think this is the case, with the trailer weight etc? I've towed this trailer many times before for multiple hours though, with no problems.. Please help!!
 

Boundless

BANNED
Joined
Jan 3, 2001
Lightman,

Sorry to hear about that.

"Injection Start Regulation" makes me wanna check the #3 injector and the Commencement of Injection (COI) Valve.

The #3 injector is the timing feedback device, the COI is the 'actuator' to adjust timing.

First check the wiring to each.... may be a bad connection.

Folks, what are the tests for the #3 injector and the timing advance/retard control section?
 

Lightman

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2002
Location
Sunny Florida
No, the last few tanks have been b20 or less. This is very disturbing. I know the dealer will blame any of this if it's fuel related on my 2 micron stanadyne filter. Would he be right? I dunno.

I unfortunately was the proud winner of 3 of the 12 defective 2 micron filters that Stanadyne made. Apparently they allowed some unfiltered fuel past the filter. I don't know if this is the cause, but I'm a little suspicious....
 

Boundless

BANNED
Joined
Jan 3, 2001
Originally posted by Lightman:
how would my timing all of a sudden just become out of adjustment? How exactly do I check it again to verify it's right?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Belt stretched a bit and the timing was marginal to begin with......

GoFaster, can you please detail the technique to check timing with the vag, thanks.
 

GeWilli

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 6, 1999
Location
lost to new england
TDI
none in the fleet (99.5 Golf RIP, 96 B4V sold)
with a registered copy of Vag-Com

Go to engine, go to measuring blocks, select block 000

click on "basic settings"

read blocks 2 and 9 and plot them on the graph in the Bentley manual.

Have you checked the glowplugs lately? Any reason for the #3 sensor to have come unplugged?

Stanadyne filter shouldn't have done anything like that.

What was your boost gauge sayin towing that load?
 

Torque!

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2000
Location
Boston, Massachusettes, USA
TDI
2001 MK4 Jetta TDI - 196K
Sounds like my problem but in my case I could not get it started again. If the fuel is gelling the pump will not be able to pull it through at higher rpms as well as it can at lower ones. Is this an automatic?
 

Boundless

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Joined
Jan 3, 2001
Torque!,

He's in Sarasota, FL. 70°F. His fuel ain't gelling.


Although, I understand why you are thinking gelling. It's darn cold around here!!!!!
 

Lightman

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2002
Location
Sunny Florida
Ok I just ran the car for a while. Compared fuel temp and timing number, its right in the middle of the recommended range in my bentley, seems that is correct. The car seems to run fine, just seemed to 'starve' of fuel earlier, when it died. I was getting on the highway with the trailer, and accelerating hard. It seems like the car used the fuel I gave it but couldn't suck enough in to keep going...dunno. I just went and topped off at my regular station, the car seemed to run fine. I wonder if the stanadyne is causing too much restriction when pulling the trailer? It almost felt like clutch slip...during hard acceleration it would be pulling/accelerating, and then kinda surge, like it wasn't getting enough air or fuel....any thoughts?

Edit: no I haven't checked the glowplugs lately, or ever really. Never had a problem starting the car, and its an '02 with 37k. It also was fully warmed and running for 20-30 mins when I got on the highway and it died the first time.

This is strange as it did this once before when I was pulling a jetski on a trailer, which was significantly lighter weight than the atv. The car just died out of the blue. The dealer blamed it on the fuel filter, said the fuel system lost prime..They cracked the system open and apparently it started right up. Who knows if thats what it was. In any case, the thing has died a few times now, and its pissing me off royally. I'm so frustrated with this supposedly 'reliable' car, i'm ready to ditch it.

[ January 22, 2003, 15:06: Message edited by: Lightman ]
 

MOGolf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 27, 2001
Location
underneath something
TDI
2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE
Could you be the not-so-proud-owner of a certain relay with an intermittent failure?
 

naturist

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2001
Location
Bro Jerry's hometown, Virginia
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI, 2005 Jeep Libby CRD, 2012 BMW X5 35d
Lightman, the relay 109 problem is supposed to have been fixed mid-01, but it might be worth a peek under there to see if it is black, rather than gray.

From what you describe, though, it sounds to me fuel related, but I make no claims of expertise on this one.

It may well be that your 2 micron filter allows just enough fuel to get through to be OK under normal circumstances, but it is marginal on high-demand driving. Get one load of bad (meaning dirty, nothing else) fuel, and it could plug just enough to no longer perform when the chips are down. And could plug up a new filter element quickly. Fuel starvation would certainly cause exactly the symptoms you describe.
 

Lightman

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Joined
Mar 10, 2002
Location
Sunny Florida
they are supposed to be rated for up to 350 hp...and have lower flow restriction than stock...hmm...I have no idea but its got me worried. Only seems to happen when i have a trailer, and am requesting heavy acceleration....
 

MOGolf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 27, 2001
Location
underneath something
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2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE
You should have the newer relay, but they can still fail. Since it happens only under heavy physical load of the vehicle as you describe, it probably isn't at fault.
 

Lightman

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2002
Location
Sunny Florida
guys I went out and drove the car tonight, it starts and runs fine for the most part.

The only consistent problem I'm having is it 'cutting out' or 'hesitating' at high power/rpm/load situations. If I floor it from 2nd thru third, by the time i'm above 3500 in third, it climbs a little slower and seems to cut out, like its running out of fuel, or the clutch is slipping.... don't think its the clutch, hadn't had that happen before...and why would the clutch slipping cause it to stall out and not start for a while....

Any ideas, especially related to that fault code/DTC would really help.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
"Injection start regulation" can simply mean the injection timing is out of adjustment. It does not necessarily mean that there is a component failure ... although it COULD mean that there is a component failure.

Get VAG-COM on it and see what it says about the injection timing compared to specs.

If it was a problem with too much fuel delivery causing *that* version of "limp mode", you would be getting a quantity adjuster fault code, and that doesn't appear to be the case.
 

Lightman

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2002
Location
Sunny Florida
UPdate; Dealer just called. He claims the reason the car died is the aftermarket fuel filter. Claims it leaks or allows air somehow, but doesn't know where, and that its sucking air when heavy throttle/fuel is requested. I wonder if he's right. The fm100 is rated for up to 350 hp, but when i'm driving the car it sure does seem like its starving for fuel under heavy load. The dealer couldn't replicate the problem. Probably because I switched back to the stock chip before I brought it in...

Secondly, my serpentine belt and tensioner are bad, and the dealer claims thats my cost, despite my car being under warranty.

My timing belt wasn't centered properly on the sprockets for some reason, they claim diesel fuel was spilled on it from my aftermarket fuel filter lines. What a joke, next they'll tell me my trunk latch broke due to my aftermarket fuel filter
 

dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 11, 2000
Location
MA
TDI
ex- 1996 wagon, ex-2000 Jetta
Lightman, I would say all of the above sux. Why can't they cover the serp belt + roller? Is there really fuel on it?

What's your game plan?
 

Lightman

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2002
Location
Sunny Florida
no fuel has leaked down there from my fuel lines, thats for sure. When the car died I changed the filter, and set the nearly full new one up near the injectors and valve cover while i pulled the other one off. Fuel may have spilled down around the pump etc, but the belt's been squealing for 10k miles...
 

dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 11, 2000
Location
MA
TDI
ex- 1996 wagon, ex-2000 Jetta
hhmmm. May be hard for you to prove otherwise. Others have had belt failures (and beyond) due to the belt not being centered...certainly not a rare condition.

What was the deal with the timing being way off? Were you able to check it yourself?
 

Lightman

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2002
Location
Sunny Florida
The timing you can check with vag com was fine, it wasn't off. Just others who had that DTC had timing problems. The dealer claims there is no fault code, despite my vag-com reading the code this morning, and me not clearing it. Didn't go out of my way to specially save it, but didn't clear codes, just done/exit.

Hopefully they've done something to center the timing belt.

Are serp belt and tensioner not covered under the normal 2002 4/50 warranty?
 

Boundless

BANNED
Joined
Jan 3, 2001
Okay… so let’s get started…..

Lightman has an FM100 installed and the OEM fuel filter has been removed. Therefore, the fuel valve (otherwise known as the thermostat valve) has also been removed from the system.

Interesting tidbit of info: The feedpump spec. is 80 Cubic Centimeters of fuel per second at 2,000 RPM (pump RPM). That’s 1.27 Gallons Per Minute. That’s brisk. At about 2,000 RPM (engine) the pump is turning 1,000 RPM, and the feedpump is pumping about 38 gallons per hour. The engine is consuming about 1 gallon per hour. Huge difference.

Take a look at this sketch of Lightman’s fuel system:



It is a simple loop. Fuel is drawn from the tank through the pump and back to the tank. This is the configuration that Lightman is having high RPM problems with. Remember, the fuel return flow rate is easily 30x the fuel consumption rate.

Now let’s take a look at the OEM loops:



NOTE: The X in the fuel valve is the thermo control device. When cold, it restricts flow, when warm it doesn’t restrict flow much more than a regular tube. The triangle in the circle is the check valve. It is very important here.

When it is very cold, the thermo device closes off the fuel flow back to the tank almost completely. BTW, I bought a fuel valve just to play with and figure out how it works. So where’s the fuel gonna go? It’s gonna open the check valve and go right back into the filter and back to the pump. Round & round it goes… Any fuel that is burned gets drawn from the tank: this is a very slow draw rate. The fuel in that little pump-fuel valve-filter-pump loop moves pretty quick though. The feedpump is a positive displacement pump.

Now let’s assume the check valve is seated (sealed) and the thermo valve is open. We are at low RPM. As RPMs increase, the feedpump fuel flow increases. The pressure at the pump inlet will go down and the pressure at the pump outlet will go up. The pump outlet pressure goes up much faster since the return line is a smaller diameter than the supply line. The pressure across the check valve will increase as the difference between the inlet and outlet pressures increases. Regardless of the temperature, the check valve will blow off and short circuit the return-feedpath across the pump inlet and outlet and cap the minimum pressure that can be drawn and max pressure that can pump out. It will make a little loop that allows the pump to pump right back to itself, drop the draw rate from the tank, and eliminate the pressure drop of the high flow through the long tank feed & return lines.

My gut tells me that to draw 1.27 GPM from the tank is a bit ambitious.

Lightman, the configuration you have might very well be drawing in air. Air in the fuel would screw up timing control. A la the timing DTC. The filter is not the problem, the configuration is.

The problems you are experiencing here are the very reasons I decided to add the FM100 in series with the OEM filter. I determined that the fuel valve must not be deleted for this very reason.

But hey, I’ve been right before!
 

Lightman

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2002
Location
Sunny Florida
I may just say fk it and go back to oem fuel filters. I have worse problems. The dealer claims my squeal is due to fuel spilled on the timing belt. They said they'd clean it and put some belt dressing on it, which i thought was odd. Anyway it probably sounds worse now than when it went in. May have to find a forum member somewhere and try to get a new TB in there.
 

Lightman

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2002
Location
Sunny Florida
boundless so you think there's actually less strain on the pump WITH the addition of the stock filter to the fm100 setup, due to this extra path?
 
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