2002 Golf TDI died driving down the highway

dapickupman

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Location
New Mexico
TDI
2002 Golf TDI
Hey guys, I just purchased a 2002 VW Golf TDI. I do gas, but diesel is a little on the foreign side to me. I bought this car from another guy that said the car was driving down the road and just shut off. The timing belt appears to have plenty of tension on it. The only thing I can find at the moment is that I see air in the clear line going to the IP; its one big bubble about an inch long. I cracked each line open while cranking to try to purge the air, but all I get is a diesel stream. The glow plug light cycles, I see the fuel going through the line while cranking but the strange thing about the bubble is that it always comes back up to the top of the clear line. And their arent numerous little bubbles, just the one. I can squirt a tiny bit of ether down the intake and it will fire right up and run until the ether dissipates, so I believe the timing is ok. Not sure where else to start at the moment. I have researched the relay 109 thing, but I cant seem to find what the symptoms are of a bad relay. It is the gray relay 109, not the black one that I keep hearing about that melts down or dies. I have replaced the O rings on the return line T on the fuel filter, and have replaced all clamps with new ones to try to see if that was the air leak. Maybe a fuel shutoff solenoid, but if it was bad, the diesel wouldn't try to cycle through the lines when cranking or come out the injectors when I try to bleed them, would it? I pulled codes and all I got was "glow plug circuit, cylinders 1,2,3 and 4". Also, could a stuck anti shudder valve cause it to die while driving down the highway. Sorry for such a long post, just scratching my head at the moment. Any input would really be helpful!
 

Black00Jetta

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2003
Location
Relocated to AZ
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS Black 5spd
A fellow TDI owner had about the same symptoms and ended up having a dead fuel injector pump. Make sure you do your trouble shooting but since you are getting fuel at the injectors it should rule out a bad pump.

Relay 109 will give a no start and is an inexpensive part to try.

Good luck.
 

Wonderboy

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Location
United States
TDI
2002 VW Jetta TDI
Have you tried putting a vacuum on the IP return line to see if the bubble will get sucked out? When my jetta died with similar symptoms the timing belt slipped on the injection pump. I would check timing before going too far I burned up a started trying to figure out the issue. If it is timed right and continues to die when running it may be your IP.
 

Nutsnbolts

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Nov 1, 2001
Location
Weare, NH
TDI
2000 Jetta, Silver Arrow
Running it on ether is not a good indication of correct timing. I've had 2 shops call me in to troubleshoot no-start problems after they tried to do timing belts, and both said "It starts right up and runs on ether just fine, so it must be a fueling problem..." When I got there, they had not put the cranks to proper TDC, and the timing was WAY off. Not enough to clank parts together, but certainly enough that it won't run. I would check that first and save yourself some headaches by eliminating that possibility.

-Rich
 

dapickupman

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Location
New Mexico
TDI
2002 Golf TDI
wow! thanks for all the quick replies. Where are the timing marks on this thing, and does anyone have a schmatic for where they line up? I don't have a VW dealer within a hundred miles or more of me, does anyone have the OEM numbers to the relay? How about that anti shudder valve? Thanks again everyone for all the ideas!
 
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ELM

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May 25, 2011
Location
Sutter Creek CA
TDI
2002 Beetle 5 speed swap
I was told that you should never use ether to fire up a diesel engine. It can cause major damage.
I only use WD-40 if I need to.
 

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
I was told that you should never use ether to fire up a diesel engine. It can cause major damage.
I only use WD-40 if I need to.
Don't spray ANY liquids, especially ether/starting fluid, into the intake on a TDI. Aside from possible explosion hazard with high temp GPs, a very real possibility of bending connecting rods due to hydrolocking (it doesn't take much).
Timing should be verified before any more attempting to start or you will do some (more) damage, if that is the issue. It is the first thing I would want to investigate.
Timing article here:http://pics2.tdiclub.com/pdf/a4timingbelt.pdf
Need special tools and Ross Tech VCDS.
Also, just because the TB appears "tight" doesn't mean that it is still in time.
 
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raybo

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Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Location
St. Petersburg, FL
TDI
2010 JSW DSG White Gold
I don't know if this will help, but the Golf went dead a couple of weeks ago and (I was told) it was the T fitting on the fuel filter. Got a new filter and T-fitting, all is ok now.
 

dapickupman

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Location
New Mexico
TDI
2002 Golf TDI
Ok guys, I got a chance to pull the timing covers off and take a look; I have a timing belt that is missing a quarter inch of belt about 3 inches long. no missing teeth or broken belt, everything is tight. My guess is so far that I bet it may have jumped a couple of teeth and made it stop running. my question is: how far can it jump before it starts bending valves? And if it only jumped 2 or 3 teeth, would that stop it from running altogether?
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
One is fun.
Two is goo.

OK, so much for Rhyme Thyme. One tooth off will be OK, but more than that means valve- piston contact. Line up the TDC mark on the flywheel, pull the vacuum pump and see if the slot is parallel to the head/valve cover surface. If it is breath a big sigh and see if the hole in the IP is lined up for TDC.

Here is a picture of the Pump holes:

 

dapickupman

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Location
New Mexico
TDI
2002 Golf TDI
Looks like good news! The cam and crank line up! the injection pump is out of time. that would explain my no start problem. I tried the timing marks on the cam with the vaccuum pump pulled and 180 out or on TDC the cam notch on the rear is horizontal across the valve cover either way. Does it sound like I am out of the woods for now?
 

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
Looks like good news! The cam and crank line up! the injection pump is out of time. that would explain my no start problem. I tried the timing marks on the cam with the vaccuum pump pulled and 180 out or on TDC the cam notch on the rear is horizontal across the valve cover either way. Does it sound like I am out of the woods for now?
Maybe...
It happens on occasion, but not often. Are you a recent lottery winner?? Feeling lucky?? ;)
The thing is the engine keeps going some after the belt looses the "teeth". Where it came to a stop is not an indication of what happened. Often the tensioner has failed and let the belt relax enough to slip on the sprockets and shred some teeth. Any time a piston to valve contact possibility occurs the valve cover should come off and the cam followers VERY closely inspected for ANY evidence of impact, exhaust valves in particular. If there is ANY chance that there was contact, the head comes off and the valves, guides, followers, etc get replaced/refurbished. Valves often look perfect, but they are not. They will have the stems slightly compressed and several thousands of miles later they break and drop into the cylinder. That gets ugly! Frank Irving is the go to guy for this head rebuilding, if needed. And if it were me, I would do it even if I was sure it still OK.
 

migbro

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Joined
May 19, 2010
Location
Lincoln, Mass.
TDI
2003 Golf GL
Looks like good news! The cam and crank line up! the injection pump is out of time. that would explain my no start problem. I tried the timing marks on the cam with the vaccuum pump pulled and 180 out or on TDC the cam notch on the rear is horizontal across the valve cover either way. Does it sound like I am out of the woods for now?
Yes. If crank-cam timing is correct there should be no valve damage.

There's a ton of info here on how to do an ALH timing belt job correctly. Cliff's notes. Replace ALL parts (belt, tensioner, three rollers, water pump) with new parts from a reputable source, replace ALL TTY bolts and other bolts as recommended, use correct tools and proper procedure - see Drivbiwire's excellent DIY.
 

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
Yes. If crank-cam timing is correct there should be no valve damage.

There's a ton of info here on how to do an ALH timing belt job correctly. Cliff's notes. Replace ALL parts (belt, tensioner, three rollers, water pump) with new parts from a reputable source, replace ALL TTY bolts and other bolts as recommended, use correct tools and proper procedure - see Drivbiwire's excellent DIY.
This one:
http://pics2.tdiclub.com/pdf/a4timingbelt.pdf
 

dapickupman

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Location
New Mexico
TDI
2002 Golf TDI
OK guys one more question for now. I found some tools on ebay that run 45 bucks shipped to me. It has the IP pin, cam lock and cam rotator. I know its not a fancy set, but do you guys think this would work ok? Here is an image of a couple of them.


 

migbro

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Joined
May 19, 2010
Location
Lincoln, Mass.
TDI
2003 Golf GL
OK guys one more question for now. I found some tools on ebay that run 45 bucks shipped to me. It has the IP pin, cam lock and cam rotator. I know its not a fancy set, but do you guys think this would work ok? Here is an image of a couple of them.
So, you've already found Prothe. LOL.

"Set of 3 tools to replace the timing belt on the later TDI engines. The set includes the camshaft lock, Injector pump lock pin, and the timing belt tensioner spanner wrench. I've sold over 1000 of these tool sets with almost no complaints."

That's Prothe alright...almost no complaints. Not. More like almost no satisfied customers.
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
That's Prothe alright...almost no complaints. Not. More like almost no satisfied customers.
Kind of like the guy that has never warrantied a battery he sold. Prothe just doesn't answer complaints, therefore they don't exist. They few mentioned are when he accidentally answered the phone.
 

dapickupman

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Location
New Mexico
TDI
2002 Golf TDI
Finally got everything put together and it runs with just a tap of the key! Now, just for sanity reasons, what would be the symptoms of being one tooth off? Nothing seems wrong at the moment, just wondering though.
 

Wonderboy

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Location
United States
TDI
2002 VW Jetta TDI
One tooth off on the injection pump? If that's what your asking the IP has an "injection window" in which it will start. If the IP is in the window the car will start. If you have a no start issue again the TB is the first place to start.
 

dapickupman

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Location
New Mexico
TDI
2002 Golf TDI
Ok, one last question. Is setting my IP timing by computer absolutely needed at this moment? Will anything be damaged if I drive it?(I haven't drove it yet). Thanks Ya'll!
 

migbro

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Joined
May 19, 2010
Location
Lincoln, Mass.
TDI
2003 Golf GL
Ok, one last question. Is setting my IP timing by computer absolutely needed at this moment? Will anything be damaged if I drive it?(I haven't drove it yet). Thanks Ya'll!
Not necessary. Nothing will be damaged.

Your "one tooth off" question is odd. Did you "mark and pray" it? If you do it the right way with the lock tools it's not possible to be a tooth off.
 
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dapickupman

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Location
New Mexico
TDI
2002 Golf TDI
no mark and pray here. rotated it twice and checked twice before i ever cranked it. Timing belts have always made me a bit nervous............
 

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
no mark and pray here. rotated it twice and checked twice before i ever cranked it. Timing belts have always made me a bit nervous............

What migbro was asking is if you used the lockdown tools and pinned the IP during the TB change procedure, because if you did you wouldn't be able to be a tooth off. If you just marked the sprockets and belt ("mark and pray" method) its anybodies guess. And just because it turned over OK w/o contact doesn't mean its timed properly.
If you used the correct method and it starts and runs OK, no you don't HAVE to finish adjusting the timing w/VCDS, but until you do you don't KNOW where the timing is really at, nor is it perhaps as good as it should/could be. That would make me nervous. Finish the job!;)
 

dapickupman

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Location
New Mexico
TDI
2002 Golf TDI
Ok guys, an update on the golf story: I put the cam seal in wrong and had to pull it all apart to put a new one in. I reset all the marks and it fires up by tapping the key, but maybe its just me, but maybe it is a little bit louder than last time........not a hundred percent sure, but maybe. Also the only code I have pulled out for now is P1248- injection pump deviation. Guessing that it is just the timing needing adjusting? Didn't get this code last time, so it has to be something I did this time. Seems to run fine, and cranks up great, so guessing I can't be a tooth off on the IP, because it wouldn't start at all, correct? any suggestions?
 
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