TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

Baumeister · Nov 26, 2008

ibanix said:
Change it at 5k; I don't think you'll see a huge increase in the next 1100 miles.

This was my gut reaction to seeing your report as well. I don't have anything scientific to back that up...just my humble opinion.

But if you do change out "early" at 5k, I'd change out again at 10k to get out any remaining copper, etc and then follow the regular OCI.

There's evidence both ways..(to leave it until 10k to complete break-in). I'd tend to side with the labs opinion.

barshnik · Nov 26, 2008

Baumeister said:
This was my gut reaction to seeing your report as well. I don't have anything scientific to back that up...just my humble opinion.
But if you do change out "early" at 5k, I'd change out again at 10k to get out any remaining copper, etc and then follow the regular OCI.
There's evidence both ways..(to leave it until 10k to complete break-in). I'd tend to side with the labs opinion.

I'm leaving on a 800 mile round trip for Thanksgiving with family tomorrow, so I think my plan will be to change at 5k on my own, let the dealer to it at 10K, 20k, and 30k with UOA done about halfway into each of the dealer-paid changes just to keep an eye on things. Thanks for your opinions - I was half expecting to be flamed for considering going against the recommended first oil change at 10k.

John F

Bob_Fout · Nov 26, 2008

Everyone is assuming these wear metals themselves cause wear, which may or may not be the case. Doesn't excessive soot cause wear?

Lab advice tends to be very generic. We've seen some really "doosees" before.

barshnik · Nov 26, 2008

Bob_Fout said:
Everyone is assuming these wear metals themselves cause wear, which may or may not be the case. Doesn't excessive soot cause wear?

Lab advice tends to be very generic. We've seen some really "doosees" before.

Insolubles will be soot, and some metals small enough to pass the filter. But, Insolubles are primarily what causes wear, so I'll go ahead with the 5k change (even though they are within acceptable levels.

I guess you can officially count me in as a proponent of doing 1 early oil change, then monitoring and probably doing the 10k intervals after this.

John F

TornadoRed · Nov 26, 2008

barshnik said:
This is at 3905 miles (now approaching 5k). The big question is: Should I do my own change early myself (I do have a filter and a case of Mobile 1 ESP 507.00 in the garage.) Or, just run it out to 10k like the manual says? I'd kind of like to change early to see if the high numbers really do 'plummet'.

Hello John. I don't see any reason why you shouldn't wait until 10k miles. The viscosity looks good, the additive levels are good, soot is low.

Consider this a baseline UO analysis -- it doesn't really tell you anything about the health of your engine, but it give you something to compare with if you test again at 20k or 30k miles.

XJCoupe · Dec 1, 2008

Hey gurus of oil --

I posted a 5k update a while back and didn't get any feedback. I'm now nearing 10k and will take a sample as soon as I can get a OA kit here (any AMSOIL dealers offering discounts to TDIClub members? PM me...).

Would you let me know how that 5k sample looks, given that I had a couple shaky results earlier?

Thanks... it's great to have the input of generous and knowledgeable folks to keep our TDIs on the road!

Bob_Fout · Dec 1, 2008

XJCoupe said:
Hey gurus of oil --

I posted a 5k update a while back and didn't get any feedback. I'm now nearing 10k and will take a sample as soon as I can get a OA kit here (any AMSOIL dealers offering discounts to TDIClub members? PM me...).

Would you let me know how that 5k sample looks, given that I had a couple shaky results earlier?

Thanks... it's great to have the input of generous and knowledgeable folks to keep our TDIs on the road!

From my entry-level knowledge of what to look for, TBN is still good, soot is very good, Fe is a tad high for 5K miles, other wear metals are great. Silicon is higher than normal (air filter not sealed good or peeking at air filter?).

I'd say sample and drain at 10K, then do another sample at 5K on the new oil, see if things remain the same.

eb2143 · Dec 7, 2008

Super Quick Oil Analysis Q.

I'm going to get an UOA on the next oil change for the Jetta and a Volvo S70. This question doesn't so much apply to the Jetta because it only goes through about .75 quarts per 10,000 miles.

The Volvo uses almost 1 quart every 2,500 miles and I am running 5,000 mile changes on PP 5w-30. The volvo dipstick allows for 1.5 litres between "add" and "full." I usually add the minimum amount to make it the 5,000 miles, so that when it the oil is changed, it's around "add."

When you take oil for analysis, are you guys always doing it with a full sump? I know they ask for makeup oil so I'm guessing you are. Only thing 1.5 quarts of PP is $10 I'd rather not spend. But the concentration of wear metals will be a lot different depending on how much oil is in there...

hid3 · Dec 7, 2008

Out of curiousity, how much in US it costs to do a used oil analysis? And are there many (or few) places where it can be done?

eb2143 · Dec 7, 2008

hid3 said:
Out of curiousity, how much in US it costs to do a used oil analysis? And are there many (or few) places where it can be done?

From what I've looked at, $20-$35, depending on if you ask for extras like TBN.

Polaris Labs
Blackstone Labs
Amsoil "Oil Analyzers"
Your local Caterpillar dealer
...others I can't think of

Polaris is free for your first sample. Blackstone gives the most "personal attention" with the comments that come with each report.

dhdenney · Dec 7, 2008

Yeah where would you send off in Europe for UOA?

dhdenney · Dec 7, 2008

eb2143 said:
I'm going to get an UOA on the next oil change for the Jetta and a Volvo S70. This question doesn't so much apply to the Jetta because it only goes through about .75 quarts per 10,000 miles.

The Volvo uses almost 1 quart every 2,500 miles and I am running 5,000 mile changes on PP 5w-30. The volvo dipstick allows for 1.5 litres between "add" and "full." I usually add the minimum amount to make it the 5,000 miles, so that when it the oil is changed, it's around "add."

When you take oil for analysis, are you guys always doing it with a full sump? I know they ask for makeup oil so I'm guessing you are. Only thing 1.5 quarts of PP is $10 I'd rather not spend. But the concentration of wear metals will be a lot different depending on how much oil is in there...

I've kinda wondered about this too. I guess that's why you sample right after driving before it settles out. You're only sending in a few ounces so it seems to be an average at best.

RUSHtheBUS · Dec 9, 2008

First OCA on 09 Sedan

Lab: Blackstone
Miles: 9418
Date: 11/24/08

Aluminum: 55
Chromium: 2
Iron: 51
Copper: 31
Lead: 2
Tin: 0
Molybdenum:4
Nickle: 1
Manganese: 4
Silver: 0
Titanium: 2
Potassium: 219
Boron: 1
Silicon: 27
Sodium: 6
Calcium: 1234
Magnesium: 8
Phosphorus: 600
Zinc: 793
Barium: 1

Fuel: <.5
Water: 0
TBN: 2.8
Comments: Forego the 10K and do a 5k

wjdell · Dec 9, 2008

What was Blackstones comments. Its a first UOA and 10k is a long time, but the numbers seem high. You really will not know till the next UOA. Si of 27 we can see this is dirty oil.

Potassium 219 - very strange -

dhdenney · Dec 9, 2008

Iron wasn't bad but copper and silicon were!

RUSHtheBUS · Dec 9, 2008

wjdell said:
What was Blackstones comments. Its a first UOA and 10k is a long time, but the numbers seem high. You really will not know till the next UOA. Si of 27 we can see this is dirty oil.

Potassium 219 - very strange -

Blackstone wants to see me do a couple of 5k OCI then see if the car can go to 10k. "This oil, like most other factory oils, had alot of left over stuff in it from the factory. Accordingly, we usually suggest staying way conservative on the first few oil changes until you see the odd stuff drop out and lub is able to be 100% effective. Pot, sil, and manganese are an example of factory left overs. Al may be too but is more likely from piston and/or case wear. Bearings look okay and the high copper is routine."

I will tell you, everytime I checked the oil, it smelled like a dirty arm pit. 1K on the fresh oil and no smell so far.

I'm going to send this to VWOA and ask them for an engineer's opinion.

I'm a little concerned that the TBN is at 2.8

TornadoRed · Dec 10, 2008

Maybe retest in 5k miles, then decide whether to drain and refill with fresh oil.

RUSHtheBUS · Dec 10, 2008

TornadoRed said:
Maybe retest in 5k miles, then decide whether to drain and refill with fresh oil.

I'll do that. Hoping the numbers will improve.

wjdell · Dec 10, 2008

Smelled like dirty arm pit means the oil was contaminated.

Bob_Fout · Dec 10, 2008

wjdell said:
Smelled like dirty arm pit means the oil was contaminated.

Contaminated by sweat?

RUSHtheBUS · Dec 10, 2008

From the Blackstone web site, hopefully this is the case:

Any oil sample taken from a new, rebuilt, or repaired engine typically reads high in silicon. Oils from some types of new engines may read as high as 400 ppm silicon. You can ignore the high silicon in these cases since it is harmless and will wash away by the third or fourth oil in the engine.

wjdell · Dec 10, 2008

yes it can actually be water and bacteria, the smell is noticeable. If your motor oil smells sorta like old gear lube, that is contamination and unfit for use.

Bob_Fout · Dec 10, 2008

Surely oil gets hot enough to boil off water and kill bacteria?

wjdell · Dec 10, 2008

Oil can rot and does. Not sure if I can find the article I read but in the next few days I will look for it. The oil breaks down and smells.

Bob_Fout · Dec 10, 2008

That applies to synthetic oil too?

wjdell · Dec 10, 2008

Not sure about syn or mineral - but I think I remember it was a tech paper at bitog. The section which has tech papers and question of the day.

Pelican18TQA4 · Dec 11, 2008

Ok, I just spend who knows how long reading through all 57 pages of this thread (shh, don't tell the boss!) and I can't seem to find what the preferred testing service is. Also, what is the preferred collection method, in terms of a kit or something? I recall seeing a post early in the thread with something from Amsoil, but I don't recall what page it was on.

wjdell · Dec 11, 2008

Search - sample pump - petcock valve

dhdenney · Dec 11, 2008

wjdell said:
yes it can actually be water and bacteria, the smell is noticeable. If your motor oil smells sorta like old gear lube, that is contamination and unfit for use.

UUUUGGGHHHH. Gear oil makes me gag. Even when fresh.

Berniem · Dec 11, 2008

Uoa

Hi Guys, I just did a Polarus Lab UOA & they did not report TBN &/or Acid. Any reason why? my Vis was 13.3. on a Amsoil HDD 15K mile duration run with a bypass filter. I can post all results when I figure out how. COMMENTS Data flagged for observation only; Viscosity is MODERATELY HIGH; Lubricant and filter change acknowledged;
Thanks Bernie

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