No start after intake manifold cleaning.

obscenic

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Nov 1, 2012
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Calgary
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1.9L MK4 Golf (2000)
I'm having a hell of a time figuring this one out so I thought I would ask around here for some troubleshooting!

After doing my timing belt (and water pump etc) I had my mkIV golf back on the road and noticed a lack of power. I VCDS'd it and found that no turbo was being delivered at all. These are the steps that I took

I took a look at the vacuum lines and found that the ASV actuator nipple had snapped off. Whilst I was waiting for a new one, I took off the ASV/EGR valve, the EGR cooler, the piping and the intake manifold and took it to get cleaned at a machine shop.

With them sparkling clean I reinstalled them all except the ASV/EGR valve. I added a belly pan and replaced the side skirts (probably irrelevant but just in case).

When the actuator arrived I installed it, reinstalled the valve, hooked up the vacuum lines and electrical connections and double checked everything.

It started for about 2 seconds, and then stopped noisily. Subsequent cranking sounds pretty bad. I pulled apart all my air lines to make sure I wasn't starving the engine of air with an accidental rag leftover - it all looks clear. I took off the intake manifold and valve to check for obstructions and all looks clear. I can't quite see into the block intake with the engine still in the car, but I don't see any signs of rags or anything.

Any thoughts? I'm at a loss.
 

Ski in NC

Top Post Dawg
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Check that you did not reverse the connectors for ASV and crankcase vent heat element. They have the same shape plugs and if you reverse them, the asv will close on engine start.
 

obscenic

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1.9L MK4 Golf (2000)
Check that you did not reverse the connectors for ASV and crankcase vent heat element. They have the same shape plugs and if you reverse them, the asv will close on engine start.
I left the ASV one plugged in the entire time.
 

Crankous

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what was the sound when it stopped? what does it sound like when you crank it now? Also get a mirror to look into the intake ports on the block with a nice flashlight you can see well. also Im sure you double checked your timing job hasnt gone bad right?
 

obscenic

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1.9L MK4 Golf (2000)
what was the sound when it stopped? what does it sound like when you crank it now? Also get a mirror to look into the intake ports on the block with a nice flashlight you can see well. also Im sure you double checked your timing job hasnt gone bad right?
It sounded.. bad. Like something was stopping the engine from turning. I only tried cranking it once after that for fear that something had fallen into the block intake ports whilst the intake was off. When I cranked it, it had the same bad something holding the engine back noise. I've been using a mirror and a flashlight to see in, but I need to find a smaller flashlight to get a better look.

The timing belt job was done meticulously, and checked afterwards with VCDS and the timing is bang on.
 

Crankous

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Yes but have you checked the belt since the noise. even the new components that are provided by vendors fail.... the percentage is small but it does happen. Sounds like some damage has happened to me. Did you clean your Intercooler before you put this all back together? there could have been a slug of oil that made it into a cyl and locked it up.
 

Seatman

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2014 Skoda rapid elegance 1.6 cr tdi
The asv is definitely wide open when cranking? You say you left the pipes connected but you obviously must've had them off to swap in the replacement. I would check the simple things like that first before getting to worried. A tdi cranking with the asv closed or no fuel etc can sound pretty appalling compared to one that starts good.
 

obscenic

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The asv is definitely wide open when cranking? You say you left the pipes connected but you obviously must've had them off to swap in the replacement. I would check the simple things like that first before getting to worried. A tdi cranking with the asv closed or no fuel etc can sound pretty appalling compared to one that starts good.
I tried with the asv out of the loop, same sound.
 

KLXD

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Did you clean the ports in the head? If not maybe a piece of junk fell into an intake port then went under a valve and stuck it open.

Hard to believe that it wouldn't mush out since the stuff is pretty soft but I've heard of this happening.

Whatsit feel like if you turn it over by hand with a wrench on the crank pulley bolt?
 
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obscenic

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So, i just popped the valve cover and turned it by hand and it feels like normal compression. Once I thought I had the cams at TDC I looked in the bell housing window and the ****ing mark was BANG on the arrow. It couldn't have been any more precise. I put the injection pump pin in and it went in fine. So the timing hasn't shifted or failed (HUGE sigh of relief). I'm looking into the intake ports and can't see any crud holding one open, but it's hard to say given the viewing angle.

I did not clean the ports in the head because of the risk of dropping crud into the cylinders...


Did you clean the ports in the head? If not maybe a piece of junk fell into an intake port then went under a valve and stuck it open.

Hard to believe that it wouldn't mush out since the stuff is pretty soft but I've heard of this happening.

Whatsit feel like if you turn it over by hand with a wrench on the crank pulley bolt?
 

obscenic

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Thank you everyone so much for your input so far! It's really helped me get motivated to do this myself instead of caving and pushing it down the block to the local shop.
 

Ski in NC

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Try rotating engine minimum two turns by putting a 19mm 12pt socket on crank bolt. Should feel four compression strokes and no hard spots. Compression will stop your rotation, but with effort kept on wrench, compression will bleed down and allow you to continue. CW when viewd from passenger side.
 

obscenic

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On my way out to do so right now! It'll be easier now that I can see the cams.
 

obscenic

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If the cams have rotated a full 360 degrees, i should have felt 4 compressions, right? I'm only feeling one and a half..
 

Ski in NC

Top Post Dawg
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But did it rotate without hitting hard spots? That's the big thing. Compression might be lacking because of gunk caught in intake valves. Usually that blows through on start and causes no harm.
 

obscenic

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No hard spots, no strange noises, but no compression on 3 out of 4 cylinders. If the valves are stuck open with gunk wouldn't that mean that the pistons may have hit the valves when I tried to start it and caused damage to the valves or pistons?
 

Seatman

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Have you tried starting it with the manifold off?

I can't remember who but someone on here was having a lot of bother and it turned out to be a stupid bit of crud still in the intake that got completely missed.
 

Ski in NC

Top Post Dawg
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All I can think of is some serious loose matter in the intake when you bolted it on. How clean was it? And how sure are you? I guess I'd go ahead and pull it back off and look in the head intake ports with a mirror and light and see what is there. A bad noise, stall out, then no compression sure sounds like something got ingested.

If just loose soot buildup, it probably is soft enough that no damage occurs, but enough of it could (??).

Half ready to recommend pull starting it with a truck 20mph in second.. that should clear it out. But that sounds sketchy considering the unknowns at this point.
 

KLXD

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Since you have the valve cover and intake off again, you can pull the plugs, place each cylinder a little past TDC with both valves closed and blow into each plug hole with an air nozzle. Either the engine will turn or you'll feel air coming out of the intake port. Maybe both. This will verify valves aren't seating.

This is why I think it's nuts to clean the intake and not the ports. You disrupt the flow and leave poorly adhering junk in the port. If you remove it it cant fall in.
 

obscenic

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1.9L MK4 Golf (2000)
Since you have the valve cover and intake off again, you can pull the plugs, place each cylinder a little past TDC with both valves closed and blow into each plug hole with an air nozzle. Either the engine will turn or you'll feel air coming out of the intake port. Maybe both. This will verify valves aren't seating.

This is why I think it's nuts to clean the intake and not the ports. You disrupt the flow and leave poorly adhering junk in the port. If you remove it it cant fall in.
Seems like a good plan, but I have no air unfortunately. I didn't clean the ports because I thought I was more likely to knock crud into the block than not. In retrospect I probably should have. Would it be wise to pull the head and check for damage anyway?
 

obscenic

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Have you tried starting it with the manifold off?

I can't remember who but someone on here was having a lot of bother and it turned out to be a stupid bit of crud still in the intake that got completely missed.
I haven't, the idea scares me. Is it ok to start with no manifold, just to check things out for a few seconds? My EGR cooler is tied up with wire right now, but the coolant lines are all still connected. The intake piping is removed as well as the intercooler/charge piping.
 

Seatman

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Wont cause any problems, just don't leave anything down there while trying! :D
 

obscenic

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1.9L MK4 Golf (2000)
Have you tried starting it with the manifold off?

I can't remember who but someone on here was having a lot of bother and it turned out to be a stupid bit of crud still in the intake that got completely missed.

How would you go about getting crud out from under the valves if that's the case?
[edit] ...without an air compressor.
 
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KLXD

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If you don't have air you couldn't have cleaned the ports properly anyway. I don't know if air would help you now. If there's stuff under a valve it's prolly stuck pretty good.

At this point if you don't want to pull the head and you are certain nothing is hitting I guess the pull start suggested above is what I'd do.
 

obscenic

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1.9L MK4 Golf (2000)
I borrowed a compressor and pushed air through each glow plug with the cam just past tdc. 1 and 2 are fine, compressed air turned the engine, but 3 and 4 have a detectable stream of air coming out the intake port. I set #3 so that the intake valve was open and blew air through the glow hole at 100psi. Retested and it still leaks the same.

I'm assuming I should clean the ports? Or is it time to pull the head?

If I do clean the ports, how do I do it on 3 and 4 without letting crud drop into the engine (since the valve is apparently held open)?
 

NWFLYJ

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With #3 at the bottom of the power stroke and air blowing in the cylinder take a wooden dowel and a hammer and bump open the intake valve. Don't roundhouse it. You may have to pull the cam to bump it better. This process is used on older aircraft engines to seat the valves on engines that fail leakdown tests due to carbon buildup. After three or four blips open, it does not seal off you may have no other option than pulling the head. Hope it helps. Mark

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obscenic

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If the intake cam lobe for #3 has just left contact with the valve, is that the bottom of the power stroke?
 

NWFLYJ

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Put the 100 psi in the cylinder and let the air push the piston down. If it does not push the piston down remove the air pressure rotate the crank some and put the air back on it.

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