american cars vs european cars

curi0us

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Hello,

I wonder what's your opinion about european cars comparing to american cars? I know that you like european TDI but let's leave it and talk about the rest.
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

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It depends what you're looking for a in a vehicle.

If you want something that weighs a lot, doesn't handle very well, uses large amounts of fuel, can haul six children, two adults, a weeks worth of camping equipment, can be cleaned out with a firehose (inside and out), can tow a trailer full of ATV's, and will be worth 10% of what you paid in 5 years, an American car is what you want.

If you perfer something that gets good mileage, holds two adults and two children, handles very well, last forever, is just as good when it's 5 years old as it was when you bought it, then get a European car.

If you want a good car that does all that and won't cause you any trouble, get a Japanese car.
 

curi0us

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You're right! I also guess that I was to general saying european cars, because in fact we are talking about german cars. Not all european cars are ok, french ones are bad, they even have diesel engines (common rail) but rest of car is very sensitive and french cars often cause problems.
 

brewer13210

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The problem with a question like that is that most cars are manufactured by multi-national companies. What's an American car? What's a European car? Is a Saab American or European? It's made in Europe by an American company. Is a Chrysler an America car? It's made in America by a European company.

Todd
 

dieseldorf

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curi0us said:
Not all european cars are ok, french ones are bad, they even have diesel engines (common rail) but rest of car is very sensitive and french cars often cause problems.
je l'aime


Used American cars, say 2 years old, can represent a great value. It's typical to be able to purchase a premium used American car for a 50% reduction in price when it's two years old. Kilo for kilo, it's a lot of car for the money!
 

Tin Man

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I've always had trouble with the quality of seats on "American" cars - even the newest Corvette has vastly improved seats from the previous model, which were poor, IMO. The big three are known for cutting corners - saving a penny or two over a million vehicles is part of their general business culture, it seems.
 

testy_SOB

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Euro cars more closely reflect European realities then do the US cars. The successful imports (exports to you as a Euro zone person) are those Euro cars that are designed more for the rural roadways (autobahn, autopista, motorway, etc...) They tend to be bigger and have the comfort for longer distances.

For many of the smaller Euro cars it is a marketing and perception issue. Americans think the cars will be unsafe so with few exceptions the smallest Euro cars that ones sees in the Euro cities are not going to sell here in the States. The US and Asian sub compacts marketed in the US are bland and mono-dimensional compared to some that are in the Euro-zone

Unfortunately these perceptions are from the 1970s to 1980s and will be hard to overcome without a normalization of emissions and safety regulations. The cost to design and qualify the smaller urban cars for the US market is too expensive for an uncertain market demand.

Too bad to because it has been my experience that there are some great cars in the sub-compact class that I think would be winners in the US. Even a few French ones.:D

The midsize and large cars are pretty much the same with varying degrees of quality and drivability. Many of these cars have to compete in both zones or with cars that do, so they are becoming similar in a lot of ways.

The biggest differance is in the thing you didn't want to talk about and that is the diesel powertrain availability. Also, I think American cars compete the best in the specialty or niche areas. Like True off-road vehicles (jeep) and midlevel sports cars (Corvette and Viper).
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Cars are multinational. The Chevy Equinox has an engine made in China, transmission in Japan. Chrysler minivans are assembled in Canada. And Jettas are made in Mexico, Golfs in Brazil.

Having said that, the culture of the parent company bleeds through. I've owned one American car, a 1988 Ford Taurus wagon. Bought new, six recalls in four years, sold it with 60K for 20% of what we paid. My Peugeot was a better value.
 

compu_85

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One thing I've noticed about our German cars is that the interiors / fit finish is a lot better then our American cars. Not that the Grand Prix or the Caravan are bad... the Jetta and Passat are just better. The controls are easier to operate. The gauges are easier to read (I have a real hard time with the red in the Pontiac). The ABS works a little better. I'm about 6' now and visibility for me is a lot better in the Passat and Jetta.

In fact, in the Grand Prix, I can't sit straight up, my head hits the ceiling. If i were in a crash, I would probably skin the top of my head on the sun visor :eek: The cruse control also works better in the Jetta and Passat... it's pretty good in the Grand Prix.. but the Caravan's isnt very good... can't keep the speed constant going up and down hills.

-Jason
 

Tin Man

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US carmakers used to be the standard of the world. They lost it in their stupid corporate culture somewhere in the 1970's. I don't know exactly why, but the UAW strike of 1967 seemed to change things a bit toward less quality.

The leftist mantra is that capitalism is equivalent to greed and corruption. I wonder if today's US businesspeople actually ended up believing this tripe, and created what essentially may be a self-fulfilling prophecy. I remember the only body parts available for my 1979 Pontiac were factory seconds! The dealer could not return them as defective!

The German, Japanese, and to some extent the English, Swedish, and French cars are made by people who are passionate about them, if not entrenched in great family traditions. I remember personally meeting a great grandson of Carl Benz who exuded quality in every move he made. American cars have less of this corporate culture, it seems, and it reflects in the product.

Good business, traditional values, and good ethics go together, not the other way around.
 

bogeyboy99

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Accounting

Too many bean counters run the show these days. Everything is measured against how much it'll cost. Granted, you have to make a profit. But, when you measure everything against cost...and treat cost as king...the product suffers.
I had the misfortuned of renting a Gran Prix in LA a few weeks ago. The seats were terrible...no one was comfortable, there was noticable lag in power from a stop to about 15 mph...then it lurched ahead like it was on fire, and the overall feel of the car was wrong.
When it all comes down to saving a few bucks per car...and you lose your passion...this is the result.

:(
 

compu_85

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Hm. The 3.8 V6 in our Grand Prix gets along nicely... good low end troque. Only makes as much power as the 1.8t in the Passat though!

-J
 

Bob_Fout

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compu_85 said:
Hm. The 3.8 V6 in our Grand Prix gets along nicely... good low end troque. Only makes as much power as the 1.8t in the Passat though!

-J
That's about right considering the turbo on the 1.8t can effectivly double the engine's displacment.
 

ARBY

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compu_85 said:
but the Caravan's isnt very good... can't keep the speed constant going up and down hills.
Maybe the intake is clogged :D
 

bhtooefr

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I can speak as someone who's been in multiple Plymouth Grand Voyagers with cruise control.

It's not that it's too slow.

It's that it right away activates the kickdown and FLOORS it as soon as it even TOUCHES a hill.

And then, it feels like you hit a brick wall as soon as you touch the downhill.
 

mjnusn

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US car makers victims of their own monsters

I prefer German cars due to their ability to make my 6'3" 225 lb frame comfortable and their basic level of functional luxury. My last US car was a 94' t-bird. Fit well and ran great with the 4.6L v-8. My wifes last two explorers had less head and leg room than her 2005 mini. My brother has almost 200k on his Lincoln with nothing but routine maintenance being done. I would own a Corvette if I could fit into one. The US makers got caught up in the good times of the 80's and 90's and started pumping out bigger and more powerful cars because that is what out US market dictated. None of those cars (SUV, Trucks, Minivans) sold here by the BIG THREE sold in overseas markets. IMO they concentrated on bigger is better and let quality control get away from them. The answer is in the over 10 year old used car market. Most with good value retention are Toyota's, Honda's, BMW, M/B, Volvo. In reality, its hard to find a really bad new car these days. Even Hyundai is building a decent vehicle these days. Not that I would buy one.
 

TylerSales

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I would like to add that I would absolutely love to have the selection of cars that the europeans have. I mean everything, including the ford focus has a diesel engine, granted they may not be as high of a quality as the VW's but none the less with our emissions laws we are being shafted in the market of midsized cars. mjnusn makes me think about the Hyundai in England that has a 1.6 litre turbo'd engine that does not to sixty is SEVENTEEN seconds!!!! haha
 

Bob_Fout

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TylerSales said:
I would like to add that I would absolutely love to have the selection of cars that the europeans have. I mean everything, including the ford focus has a diesel engine, granted they may not be as high of a quality as the VW's but none the less with our emissions laws we are being shafted in the market of midsized cars. mjnusn makes me think about the Hyundai in England that has a 1.6 litre turbo'd engine that does not to sixty is SEVENTEEN seconds!!!! haha
I believe you mean "naught" instead of "not" :)
 

bhtooefr

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Seventeen seconds?

My Jetta trembles in fear. Either that, or that's just the diesel clatter, and you're sitting behind me, waiting for the smoke to clear, so you can pass me :p
 

cptmox

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brewer13210 said:
The problem with a question like that is that most cars are manufactured by multi-national companies. What's an American car? What's a European car? Is a Saab American or European? It's made in Europe by an American company. Is a Chrysler an America car? It's made in America by a European company.
Toyota Camry is made in Georgetown, KY.
Ford Fusion is made in Mexico
VW Jetta is also made in Mexico
BMW 3-series are made in South Carolina
Mazda B4000 pickups are rebadged Ford Rangers made in Minneapolis
Pontiac GTO is made in Australia
Some Ford F-150s are assembled in Canada
Nissan Titans are made in Tennessee
The Ford Five-Hundred is made in the great city of Chicago
 

Tin Man

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Tsk tsk, technicalities:

Then let me clarify this for you:
cptmox said:
Toyota Camry is made in Georgetown, KY.
"Japanese" car

Ford Fusion is made in Mexico
American car

VW Jetta is also made in Mexico
German car

BMW 3-series are made in South Carolina
German car

Mazda B4000 pickups are rebadged Ford Rangers made in Minneapolis
American trucklet

Pontiac GTO is made in Australia
Uh, I guess more Australian than American

Some Ford F-150s are assembled in Canada
American truck

Nissan Titans are made in Tennessee
Japanese truck

The Ford Five-Hundred is made in the great city of Chicago
American car.

Its the culture of the company, not the actual location of manufacturer that counts the most.

TM

All German cars with only one actually made in Germany:
 

windnsea00

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Only the X5 and Z4 are built in South Carolina. The 3-series is built in Germany, South Africa and I may be forgetting somewhere else also. Back to the original question. For the most part, Americans cars are SO boring. Sure they may have decent reliability now but Japanese already have dominated that market and implanted that in people's minds. It will take more than just reliability to sell US cars well these days. I think the new Vette is sharp looking, still could use some interior work though. Other than that and I guess the Viper and Ford GT, I can't think of an American vehicle I would buy. I have driven 2 new mustang's (V6 and GT) and found the handling, interior, visibility, craftsminship to be rental car status, a real piece of *rap in other words.

Now I would imagine where you live in America would have a big effect on what your opinion is also. In California most cars people buy are asian/european excluding trucks/suvs. Since CA has a large effect on style and culture, it is extremely necessary for these car companies to get their heads out of Detroit and design cars that would appeal to a state with an average of 40 million cars. Nissan moved a design center out to San Diego, specifically La Jolla, quite some time back and such cars as the 350Z and Xterra have been designed here. If your remeber back in the mid 90's, Nissan was very bland and almost want bankrupt but Renault helped them. I just turned 20 a few days ago and I can tell you my generation has no interest in American cars, so if they want any future in their homeland they better start working harder.
 

Tin Man

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It seems that many "American" car buyers are steadfastly "patriotic" in their purchase. I believe the big three have taken advantage of this to give us big hits like the Cavalier and Taurus, rental cars all the way!
 

cptmox

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Tin Man said:
It seems that many "American" car buyers are steadfastly "patriotic" in their purchase. I believe the big three have taken advantage of this to give us big hits like the Cavalier and Taurus, rental cars all the way!
My friends, my dad and all his buddies are Harley owners, and big-time patriotic car/motorcyle owners. The prevailing attitude is buy American or maybe European. It is get a Harley or don't ride at all. They would ride a Triumph or MAYBE a BMW (although they're generalized as "Yuppie-cycles"), but NEVER a Japanese motorcycle.

They all drive American cars or trucks, but some of them have wives who drive German cars, and they think my diesel Jetta is the sh!t because of the mileage and range.

I ask them why English and German products are OK, and Japanese are not in their "buy American" thinking. Especially when so many Japanese products are assembled by Americans. I inevitably get a response involving the words "rice burners" or "f&*#ing Japs". I don't think they are racist or prejudiced, it is just an overlying feeling that the Japanese are invading our markets. Most obviously the American motorcyle market, where H-D is viewed as the last man standing, and has marketed to the patriotic-types.

If I could afford one, I would buy a Road King in a second. I wouldn't be caught dead on a rice rocket, what would everyone say? :)
 

tdireader

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I've gone through quite a few american car rentals in the last few weeks:
GM average a little less than 15 mpg (buick, malibu, chevy ? )
Chrysler 19-22 mpg (sebring, stratus, 300)
Ford 14-19 mpg (2 taurus)


This is w/ 70% hwy and 30% city.

I won't comment on the interiors.

I miss my TDI......


As for coporate culture, I'll keep my stories to myself.
 

Smokerr

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Interesting who supplies the diesel for this


2007 Dodge Caliber to Feature 4-Cylinder World Engine, CVT and All-Wheel Drive
August 09, 2005
Dodge_caliber
Dodge Caliber Concept Car shown earlier in 2005.

The all-new 2007 Dodge Caliber will be the first Chrysler Group car to offer a continuously variable transmission (CVT), the new World Engine family of four-cylinder gasoline engines, and a new electronic all-wheel drive system, along with a new 2.0-liter diesel engine.

The combination of the CVT and the new 4-cylinder gasoline engines are estimated to provide a combined 11%–13% improvement in fuel economy over comparable, current-generation systems.

Continuously variable transmissions provide an infinite number of gear ratios, allowing the engine to stay in its most efficient operating range.

The Dodge CVT2 transmission uses two V pulleys and a steel push belt to vary the input speed to output speed ratio instead of traditional discrete gear ratios activated by clutches or bands.

Through the use of electronic controls, the CVT2 provides a 6%–8% improvement in fuel economy compared to a traditional four-speed automatic transmission.

Eliminating upshifts allows the transmission to engage the torque converter clutch almost immediately when accelerating and to keep it engaged throughout speed changes. This eliminates torque converter slippage common in stepped transmissions and results in more efficient operation, especially during city driving.

Optimized gear ratios, especially in the 30–60 mph range, improve passing maneuvers and contribute to a responsive feel. For example, drivers will experience an appropriate rise in engine RPM during acceleration rather than an instant rise to the maximum engine RPM.

Chrysler developed its 4-cylinder family of World Engines with Mitsubishi Motors and Hyundai. With more than a combined US$ 700 million invested in the engine plant, production begins next month. The World Engines are targeted to improve fuel efficiency by five percent compared with the engines they replace.

The 2007 Dodge Caliber will be available with all three displacements in the World Engine family: 1.8-liter (140 hp / 104 kW), 2.0-liter (150 hp / 112 kW) and 2.4-liter (170 hp / 127 kW). For non-US markets, Dodge is offering a new 2.0-liter turbo diesel engine (which is built by Volkswagen).

The 2.0-liter diesel is a direct-injection turbo diesel with high-pressure fuel injection, a variable geometry turbocharger and four valves per cylinder. The injectors are electronically controlled, allowing precise management of each combustion cycle with the optimum quantity of fuel. This system can operate at pressures up to 2,000 bar, leading to finer atomization of fuel, high power and torque and improved fuel efficiency.

The turbo diesel engine is expected to position the Dodge Caliber sold in Europe among the best in its class for power, torque and towing capacity. Maximum power is estimated at 134 hp (100 kW), and peak torque is estimated at 229 lb-ft (310 Nm).

The 2007 Caliber will also offer the first electronically controlled all-wheel-drive system with variable torque output ever offered on any Chrysler Group passenger car. The system works on demand, driving only the front wheels until power to the rear wheels is needed, which optimizes fuel economy. All-wheel drive is also used between speeds of 25 and 65 mph to ensure precise handling during performance driving. All-wheel drive will be available on vehicles sold in North America.

in Diesel, Engines, Fuel Efficiency, Vehicle Systems | Permalink | Comments (11) | TrackBack
Ford Feeling Squeezed Out on Hybrid Components
August 08, 2005

The Detroit News reports that Ford suspects that it may be getting squeezed out from supplies of critical components for hybrids by Toyota and Honda.

The components manufacturers are longtime suppliers, and in some cases, affiliates, of the two Japanese companies.

With the fall launch of the gas-electric Mercury Mariner, Ford is tripling its hybrid SUV lineup over three years. But its transmission supplier, Aisin Seiki Co. Ltd., can boost deliveries by only 20 percent, to 24,000 transmissions annually.

“Aisin, which is minority-controlled by Toyota, has interesting shareholders they have to answer to,” said Mary Ann Wright, director of Ford’s hybrid programs research and advanced engineering.

[...]Officials with Toyota, which owns 23 percent of Aisin, say the company has no desire or motive to limit hybrid component supplies to Ford or any other automaker.

Ford is looking for domestic suppliers as replacements, and to building internally.

Although Aisin supplied the transmission for Toyota’s first-generation Prius sedan, Toyota now produces its own third-generation hybrid transmissions in-house. GM will be producing its hybrid system (co-developed with DaimlerChrysler) at its Allison unit—the same group that produces the hybrid drive for transit buses.

“If Ford is serious about a hybrid future, it has to design its own transmission or find its own transmission supplier,” said [Lindsay] Brooke [an auto analys
 

testy_SOB

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cptmox said:
My friends, my dad and all his buddies are Harley owners, and big-time patriotic car/motorcyle owners. The prevailing attitude is buy American or maybe European. It is get a Harley or don't ride at all. They would ride a Triumph or MAYBE a BMW (although they're generalized as "Yuppie-cycles"), but NEVER a Japanese motorcycle.

They all drive American cars or trucks, but some of them have wives who drive German cars, and they think my diesel Jetta is the sh!t because of the mileage and range.

I ask them why English and German products are OK, and Japanese are not in their "buy American" thinking. Especially when so many Japanese products are assembled by Americans. I inevitably get a response involving the words "rice burners" or "f&*#ing Japs". I don't think they are racist or prejudiced, it is just an overlying feeling that the Japanese are invading our markets. Most obviously the American motorcyle market, where H-D is viewed as the last man standing, and has marketed to the patriotic-types.

If I could afford one, I would buy a Road King in a second. I wouldn't be caught dead on a rice rocket, what would everyone say? :)
Interesting, I bought my BMW because I thought the Harly was becoming the Yuppie cycle. Nothing against the Harly probably will buy one someday, but when I went shopping for a new bike after not riding for 15 years, I looked all around me in the Harly dealerships and it was more IZOD then Carhartt. So I ended up with a BMW to be differant. My bad knee may lead me back though...

And as far as why BMW is more accepted. It's much more then Jap vs German. BMW owners in the US have a reputation in the bike world as being as hardcore of riders as the Harly hardcore. In addition to sharing some of the festivals, they have their own rallies and Fests that usually involve long road trips and serious all weather riding. Real Harly riders respect that and that is the basis of the respect, that and the BMW opposed twin is the OTHER big twin that is nearly as old as the Harly V-twin. Real Hardcore riders respect real riders of whatever brand. It's the weekend poser that has the attitude.

I spent a lot of time with my friends at the 100th rally (including the Elton John Debacle:eek: ) and there were quite a few BMWs, old Nortons, and Moto-Guzzis mixed in as well as a smattering of everything else. Never had an issue, in fact quite a few liked my bike if for no other reason I could find it out of a group of thousands!!
 

TDIJetta99

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03... Faster than yours =]
It would be hard for me to pick between european or american.. I've never had a vehicle that was not reliable. Period. A car is only as reliable as you make it.. All but 2 of the cars/trucks I've owned over the years have been GM's.. Every last one of them went over 250k. The 86 cavalier held the record@ 296k until I got the f-150(now at 430k)..

My Jetta is my first import of any kind and I am quite impressed with the ride and handling. Interior fit and finish is very good, probably better than any other car I've had, but it's also the newest, lowest mileage(150k) vehicle I've ever owned, it should be nicer, next newest one is a 1990. My only complaints are with the damn electrical system, this car likes to eat light bulbs, every 2 weeks one goes out somewhere in or around it. And don't even get me started with the coolant migration. There's absolutely no excuse for that...

My 1990 F-150 has it's rattles, squeeks and such.. It has 430,000 miles on it.. But it's a pickup used to haul stuff around and pull trailers... I didn't get it to be all comfy and cozy and drive like a car.. I can tow 6000 pounds without much trouble.. Oh, and the price was right... $600... There's no way I could've found anything non-american for less than a grand that could do what I needed to do..

I got the Camaro to go fast.. It's an 11 second car that I could hop in it and drive to california tomorrow if I wanted..

I guess if I HAD to choose one or the other, I'd pick an american car.. For what a later model european car costs, I could pick up something american real cheap and use the extra money to maintain it or even get a second car...
 

Reflex130

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UK
cptmox said:
it is just an overlying feeling that the Japanese are invading our markets.
They are not invading your markets, they just provide more choice, to a wider audience, with more value for money. Ok, they may be of a lower quality in some or/all areas, but you are still buying it, because it offers what your american product can not. If Jap cars were not selling in America, they would not be over there at all, same as any other country and its markets, they have all been invited by the consumer.
I dont want to start any fires, but its a well documented fact, American cars do not sell in the UK/Europe, because of two big issues, and quite few 'not so big issues'.
The reason you dont get all the euro options, is because you are all (%) buying american cars, so the demand is not great enough.
I hope this is taken as intended, i did not list the issues, its completely on topic, so no fighting. ;)
 
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