VWoA: 506.01 & 507.00 acceptable where 505.01 is specified

SUNRG · Oct 7, 2006

Just wanted to put these two letters in one place for the TDI club community to reference if needed.

I also want to explain the distinction between acceptable and recommends.

By using the term acceptable VWoA is stating that if you have access to 506.01 or 507.00 oils you may use them in your vehicle that specifies 505.01 - provided you adhere to the maintenance intervals described in your owners manual.

VWoA is not using the term recommends because if VWoA recommends a product then US consumers expect the product to be available through VWoA dealerships.

At this time, 506.01 and 507.00 are not available through VWoA dealerships and US consumers should not expect them to be.

Fortunately, VW TDI enthusiasts in the US have the ability to purchase VAG approved 506.01 and 507.00 oils through many online stores and a growing number of retail outlets. [VAG 506.01 approved oils - LINK, VAG 507.00 approved oils - LINK]

A letter sent to a V10 TDI owner:

My email to VAG Wolfsburg:

From: Robert Issem [mailto:rob@virginiatennis.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 12:22 PM
To: 'KUNDENBETREUUNG@VOLKSWAGEN.DE'
Subject: using 506.01 or 507.00 where 505.01 is specified

The owner’s manuals in VW Pump Duse TDIs in the US indicate that oils meeting the VW505.01 oil spec should be used. We are fortunate to also have access to oils approved by VW to the later VW pump duse / diesel specifications VW506.01 and VW507.00.

VW enthusiasts in the US understand that VW506.01 and VW507.00 are LongLife specifications and are using these oils because they want full-synthetic formulations and increased fuel economy.

However, some technicians at VWoA dealerships are unfamiliar with these newer VW longlife specifications and are scaring VW enthusiasts that are using VW506.01 and VW507.00 oils with statements like "Well they told us in training, anything that doesn't say 505.01 on the bottle voids the warranty." [Note to TDIclub members: this is an exact quote from this post - LINK]

Can you please confirm that using oils approved by VW to the standards VW506.01 and VW507.00 are acceptable for use in VW Pump Duse TDIs where VW505.01 is specified?

Thank you!

Robert Issem
Roanoke, Virginia – USA

Volkswagen AG reply:

Turbosprezarka · Oct 7, 2006

Thanks SUNRG. Great information for all!

TwoSlick · Oct 7, 2006

Bob,

Been giving a little more thought to this VW 506.01 vs VW 505.01 thing....

As I recall, the VW 506.01 spec requires a high temp, high shear viscosity of at least 3.5 Cp @ 150C (i was confusing it with VW 506.00, which is the very low vis stuff). Most of the SAE 5w-40, VW 505.01 lubes like the new Amsoil European oil or Castrol TXT come in at 3.6-3.8 Cp @ 150C. So even though you are comparing a 30wt to a 40wt, there is little or no difference in oil pressure or oil film thickness at operating temp. Of course since these two products are very close in terms of HT/HS viscosity, I would expect the 0w-30, VW 506.01 oils would only provide a measurable fuel savings during the warmup phase. Under steady state conditions on the highway, fuel efficiency should be the same, or at least within 1%-3%.

The VW 506.01 oils (and to a lesser degree the 505.01 oils), can be expected to provide a somewhat greater fuel savings in comparison to the significantly thicker 5w-40, HD diesel oil. Most of these now come in with a HT/HS viscosity in the 4.0-4.5 Cp range. The thicker CI-4+ stuff does generate lower overall wear rates in older TDI's however, so there is a trade off to be made.

regards,

Ted

SUNRG · Oct 7, 2006

Ted,

The acceptable HTHS ranges of 506.01 and 506.00 are the same: 2.9 to 3.4 [Note: All 506.01 oils are also 506.00 - LINK]. The Motul 506.01 V@100C is 9.36 compared to 10.85 for the ELF 506.01 - and I expect the Motul 506.01 also has a slightly lower HTHS than the ELF 506.01. I agree that a 2-3% fuel economy bump is reasonable to expect from these oils, but I have seen people reporting greater gains.

My understanding is that the HTHS of 507.00 is limited to the incredibly narrow range of 3.50 to 3.59 - enabling it to be acceptable for use in virtually all VWs. Of course the HTHS of 505.00 and 505.01 are 3.5+, with no upper limit.

The thicker CI-4+ stuff does generate lower overall wear rates in older TDI's however, so there is a trade off to be made.

I have seen UOAs that support this. scythefwd's recent 506.01 UOA LINK on his '99 TDI looks great so, depending on the operating conditions, 506.01 may perform very well in many older TDIs too. I personally suspect that even in older TDIs, if soot levels are low, 506.01 may perform very.

Cheers!

hutchman · Oct 7, 2006

30K UOA on Elf Evolution CRV 506.01 in 2006 Jetta

Not quite sure where this needs to go now that the UOA thread was moved to the FAQ section and locked (I can't post to it).

Here is the latest UOA on our A5 which has been using 506.01 since the first oil change. The wear isn't trending down so I'm not too sure what to make of it. I'm still on the original air filter so I don't know if that might have something to do with the soot values climbing or not.

Still using HESS fuel, 8oz of Diesel Klean (in warm months) and the allowable limit of BD.

I have been feeling some stumbling (picked up Diesel Purge at TDIFest but haven't use it yet) at stop lights etc. and I finally tried the dielectric grease trick on MAF and early indications are it helped a lot.

Here is the 4th UOA (1st test was factory Castrol ... all others Elf CRV):

Zero10 · Oct 7, 2006

If you look at the wear rates/1000 miles it's not actually as bad as it looks. The numbers are a bit misleading. The first OCI shows roughly twice the wear rate of the latest sample.

vikingrob · Oct 7, 2006

Well, there are now at least two letters from VWoA re: 506.01 in PD engines.

LOWRANGO · Oct 7, 2006

make it a sticky

Logismoi · Oct 8, 2006

It was worth the Call !

SunRG,

Now we need VWoA to "APPROVE" Long Life Service while under warranty

truman · Oct 8, 2006

Logismoi said:
SunRG,

Now we need VWoA to "APPROVE" Long Life Service while under warranty

I don't think that can happen until we have the flexible service sensors on our cars and, more importantly, until USLD is universally available. A 3rd item would be that the American public would have to be retrained. I think we are 3-4yrs away from that happening, IMO.

tditom · Oct 8, 2006

Is the Fe wear on hutchman's car due to it still being "broken in"?

Logismoi · Oct 8, 2006

truman said:
I don't think that can happen until we have the flexible service sensors on our cars and, more importantly, until USLD is universally available. A 3rd item would be that the American public would have to be retrained. I think we are 3-4yrs away from that happening, IMO.

The sensor IS in the car -- atleast the V10 there is

tditom · Oct 8, 2006

Logismoi said:
SunRG,

Now we need VWoA to "APPROVE" Long Life Service while under warranty

I propose you go right back to your gal Trisch at VWoA for another letter answering this. Note that SUNRG's letter was answered by a "Volkswagen Supervisor" so you might want to get her involved if you need to.

If the FSS hardware/software is there and running, there is no reason not to trust the design to work properly, and VW should stand behind their design.

Logismoi · Oct 8, 2006

tditom said:
If the FSS hardware/software is there and running, there is no reason not to trust the design to work properly, and VW should stand behind their design.

Not "IF"...since the FSS hardware/software is there and running, there is no reason not to trust the VW design to work properly, and VW should stand behind their design.

Completely agreed.

-

dieseldorf · Oct 8, 2006

Logismoi said:
there is no reason not to trust the VW design to work properly, and VW should stand behind their design.

NICE !

AndyH · Oct 9, 2006

No - No NEED to approve Long-Life - and No need for 506.01!

Logismoi said:
SunRG,

Now we need VWoA to "APPROVE" Long Life Service while under warranty

Oil analysis is all you need to document extended drain intervals for any engine with any oil.

On the 505.01/506.01 front...I just returned from my local VW dealer and enjoyed a visit with an '06 V10 Touareg. Here's a (camera-phone) photo of the underhood sticker:

"Failure to use engine oil for your engine that expressly conforms to Volkswagen Oil Standard 505.01 or 507.00 can..."

Tell me again why we needed to push VWoA for permission to use a lower quality product than is already authorized?!

tditom · Oct 9, 2006

So the German doc states that the V10 can ONLY use 506.01, but this label seems to say 505.01 or 506.01?

confusion reigns.... (well, in regards to the v10 anyways)

AndyH · Oct 9, 2006

tditom said:
So the German doc states that the V10 can ONLY use 506.01, but this label seems to say 505.01 or 506.01?

confusion reigns.... (well, in regards to the v10 anyways)

No. No 506.01. 505.01 or 507.00. I used to live in Germany - but I'm back in the USA now...

Ain't generation skipping grand! We need a smilie face that means 'ROTFL'.

tditom · Oct 9, 2006

sigh.....
here is the chart, again, that clearly states the ONLY oil for the V10 (and R5) is the 506.01. Given the issues with previous labeling fiascos, any thing printed for N. America should be viewed with great skepticsm if it differs from a VAG document.

Concerning Long-Life OCI's, for warranty purposes I would want to get something in writing from VWoA if the owner's manual doesn't mention it.

AndyH · Oct 9, 2006

With respect, Tom, where do you live?

I really don't understand it, folks -- there's so much distrust for VWoA that Euro guidance is seen as superior...But everyone's all for VWoA when they issue a letter that does what they want?! (Even when it's a step down!)

tditom · Oct 9, 2006

Andy- as you know, I'm no oil guru, but if I understand correctly, 506.01 is a special lube in terms of protection. 507 is needed for use with DPF, so I understand it does not have the protection that 506.01 does. (someone will correct me if this is wrong).

OF COURSE VAG guidance is superior!! They designed these engines and developed these advanced oil specs for crying out loud!!! We've been encouraged with the developments over the last week where 'oA is finally coming around to oil standards that have existed for ~3 yrs. I think the skepticsm is well deserved, no??

Logismoi · Oct 9, 2006

tditom said:
Andy- as you know, I'm no oil guru, but if I understand correctly, 506.01 is a special lube in terms of protection. 507 is needed for use with DPF, so I understand it does not have the protection that 506.01 does. (someone will correct me if this is wrong).

OF COURSE VAG guidance is superior!! They designed these engines and developed these advanced oil specs for crying out loud!!! We've been encouraged with the developments over the last week where 'oA is finally coming around to oil standards that have existed for ~3 yrs. I think the skepticsm is well deserved, no??

The US Spec V10 DOES have the DPF installed

wny_pat · Oct 9, 2006

AndyH said:
1. I really don't understand it, folks -- there's so much distrust for VWoA that Euro guidance is seen as superior.......................................................
2. But everyone's all for VWoA when they issue a letter that does what they want?! (Even when it's a step down!)

1. All one has to do to understand is visit http://myvwlemon.com.

2. Just how is it a step down?

tditom · Oct 9, 2006

Logismoi said:
The US Spec V10 DOES have the DPF installed

yes, and per the doc it is the only DPF equipped tdi specified to use the 506.01 oil.

SUNRG · Oct 9, 2006

AndyH said:
Tell me again why we needed to push VWoA for permission to use a lower quality product than is already authorized?!

AndyH said:
everyone's all for VWoA when they issue a letter that does what they want?! (Even when it's (506.01) a step down!)

506.01 = extended drain, fuel economy optimizing, 2001 update to 506.00 [HTHS range = 2.9 to 3.4]
507.00 = extended drain, DPF compatible, consolidating [HTHS range = 3.50 to 3.59]

507.00 approved oils are held to identical anti-wear, extended drain, bench, road and RNT testing that 506.01 oils are. matching (not exceeding) the anti-wear and extended drain abilities of 506.01 with a lowSAPS formulation was the challenge 507.00 oils met.

if i wanted an oil to help optimize my fuel economy and/or acceloration, and provide the best cold start performance of any VW TDI oil specification - 506.01 would be my choice. personally, even though i like using/testing 507.00 in my 2004 PD-TDI, i would prefer to have 506.01 in my Golf heading into the winter.

so it is accurate to say 507.00 is held to different formulation constraints than 506.01, to enable it to be broadly DPF and 3-way catalyst compatible and be a consolidating VW specification, while matching all of the extended drain and anti-wear characteristics of 506.01.

IMHO, for TDIs that are not DPF equipped, 506.01 has a number of small advantages over 507.00. [IMHO the cold start performance of a 0w vs a 5w, and the fuel economy and acceloration bumps of the lower HTHS 506.01 formulation are all measurable - but minimal].

bottom line: IMHO 506.01 and 507.00 are both great oil specifications.

cheers!

tditom · Oct 9, 2006

SUNRG said:
506.01 = extended drain, fuel economy optimizing, 2001 update to 506.00 [HTHS range = 2.9 to 3.4]
507.00 = extended drain, DPF compatible, consolidating [HTHS range = 3.50 to 3.59]...

Rob, could the bolded numbers above be the reason VAG specifies ONLY 506.01 use in the vehicles with the gear driven camshaft?

SUNRG · Oct 9, 2006

tditom said:
Rob, could the bolded numbers above be the reason VAG specifies ONLY 506.01 use in the vehicles with the gear driven camshaft?

I don't know.

My opinion is that 505.01, 506.01 and 507.00 are all acceptable for use in the V10 - and 506.01 will return optimal V10 performance and economy.

AndyH · Oct 9, 2006

Rob,

The 506 and 507 limits may be the same as you say. Too bad you can't prove it. That doesn't mean the oil is the same, or that they will perform the same. I suspect the chemical limits required by 507 to make it advanced emissions friendly will require use of chemistry that will give it stronger wear protection than 506. I think you've already seen that?

Since we don't have the spec docs, and we don't have any standardized test data, I'll throw-in some similar comparisons to make my point - CI-4+ to CJ-4 (heavy duty no holds barred vs. chemical limits first then wear).

Here's the reference: http://www.lubrizol.com/CJ-4/pdflibrary/july06place.pdf

Page 7: CI-4+ strengthened soot control and shear stability over the original CI-4's wear protection and oil consumption goals. Notice the crater for emissions... Moving to CJ-4 -- creating an oil formulation that was emissions friendly yet handled the increased demands that double-dose EGR and injection equipment changes would have on the oil required strengthening not only the emissions friendly side of the products, but resulted in bettering the product in all aspects of the chart. Looks great - but the catch is that the new operating environment will shorten OCIs in part because the increased backpressure will lower fuel economy - and burning more fuel adds more oil contaminants.

Page 11: A shot of a DPF. Why ash has gone down in CJ-4 vs. CI-4+. And also one way 507.00 is different from 505.01 and 506.0x...

Page 29: Proof of shorter drain intervals. Same TBN/TAN levels after 5000 fewer miles.

Page 30: Interesting... CJ-4 does significantly better in a number of areas on page 7 - including wear control - but real-world driving shows very similar rates of wear...

[Rob says he knows that 506.01 and 507.00 have the same performance specifications. Where's the proof? And it appears that 507.00 might lower wear in actual use. Yet CJ-4 shows similar wear with higher specs... Can I suggest that 507.00 might have to have different formulation goals in order to meet the same minimum requirements?]

Page 32 shows shorter drain intervals due to TBN depletion...

[Hmmm...Rob says that 506.01 and 507.00 have the same extended drain intervals, and the same performance target...yet we see that DPF-compatible formulas might not give the same OCI as higher-TBN products... So, If Rob's correct - 507.00 must be built stronger than it needs to be in order to meet the long-drain requirement that Rob says it has...]

Rob - Afton Chemical's info lists VW's on-road fuel economy test - PV1451. Tell me again about the fuel economy requirement for 506.0x? Also - you say that 506.01 has a HTHS limit - but the rest of the industry didn't get that memo. Afton Chemical thinks that 506.00 has a limit, but 506.01 doesn't?

As TooSlick has already pointed out, the change in fuel economy due to the small HTHS difference in a slow-turning engine are going to be very tiny. And the performance and/or fuel mileage difference between the 0W- and the 5W- will also be very tiny - and only apply during those first few minutes until the engine warms up - then the oils will perform nearly identically.

As a reminder -- the EGR cooler works both ways - hot exhaust gases help warm the coolant quicker. The oil/water heat exchanger warms the coolant quicker. The sound and heat insulation keeps heat in... These engines are designed to warm up to operating temperature as soon as possible for a number of reasons - not the least of which is the lower emissions from a warm engine. The 2007 emissions vehicles will run hotter still. So the time during which the oil will transition from a 0W/5W- to a 30 is getting shorter and shorter...

AndyH · Oct 9, 2006

tditom said:
yes, and per the doc it is the only DPF equipped tdi specified to use the 506.01 oil.

Logis - your profile says you have a 2004 T'reg. It should not have a DPF because of high sulfur fuel and lack of emissions-friendly oil.

If you have a DPF on your car, it won't be alive very long...

506.01 is not designed to protect the DPF - therefore, this oil can only be used on earlier cars, while 507.00 can be used on 2007 and earlier vehicles.

wjdell · Oct 9, 2006

Another shock may be that Hc oils are protecting better - I read somewhere that there were superior characteristics in Hc oils but that the life was shorter than pao. I think we may find that ELF 507 is a synthectic but made from crude oil or Hydrocracked. I know that Liqui Moly 507 is in fact Hc oil.

Andy I also read that the long term effects of high sulfhur fuel were not to be worried about with that filter. Some smoking but no damage.

VWoA: 506.01 & 507.00 acceptable where 505.01 is specified

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