DPF bit the dust !!!!

Softrockrenegade

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I just got my car back from the dealer after dropping it off for a CEL and seems the DPF was clogged as well as the egr filter ??? Any insight into why this happened ? I first got a cel at 1400 miles (p0401) , then on and off around 3500 , and on steady after 5k ...here are the service work order papers !

 

maxedtdi

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Kalifornia
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2011 Golf 2 Door DSG
That sucks :( according to a tech buddy of mine the PDF filters are more common of a failure than the fuel pumps :(
 

eloreno

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Adirondacks
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2012 golf tdi
Sorry to hear it.. I remember when you bought your car, I was waiting for mine. Here's hoping that was the last kink that needed working out.
 

specsalot

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Here is what Ross Tech lists for your fault code as symptoms, causes, solutions:

16785/P0401/001025 - Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) System: Insufficient Flow Detected

Possible Symptoms


  • Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) ON
  • Reduced Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR)
  • Reduced Power Output/Engine running rough
  • Increased Emissions
Possible Causes


  • Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Flow restricted/clogged
  • Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve stuck closed/leaking/faulty
  • Wiring and/or Connector(s) from/to Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve faulty
  • Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) System faulty
Possible Solutions


  • Check/Clean Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) System
  • Check/Replace Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve
  • Check Wiring and/or Connector(s) from/to Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve
Here's a schematic of your EGR system courtesy of the narrative:



I really haven't done enough of a read through of documentation to really be able to speak to your questions. There are a number of failures that seem to impact the ability of the system to have "active regeneration" of the DPF. If you do a lot of short drives (city traffic) you may not be running hard enough to get passive regeneration into play. The dealer may be able to access data detailing issues with DPF regeneration. It probably wasn't happening in your system.

Any other symptoms beyond the lights as far as drive ability goes? Have you ever interrupted an active regeneration by shutting down the car? [Typically the engine cooling fan will run for a while after the key is off and you might have detected a burnt plastic smell from the engine compartment].

If you read the narrative you will see that it's a very complex system. With your relatively low mileage you probably have had something amiss from day one. (Out of calibration sensor, vacuum leak, wiring issue, etc).

The dealer ship should hopefully do more than just through parts at your problem. They should be able to pin point the failure issue. Clearly if they don't correct it, you will be in the same boat in another 5K miles. The fact that you've lost the DPF and the LP EGR Filter almost implies that you have an issue with something further down stream in your exhaust circuit that restricted flow through your DPF [NOx Cat, Exhaust Valve, H2S Converter]. Speculation is no substitute for through troubleshooting. Hopefully your dealer will call in a VW troubleshooter (service engineer) to help solve the mystery.

Sorry to hear about your mis-fortune.
 
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ToeBall

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2010 VW Jetta Wagon TDI
Sorry to hear it. If you wanna make me an offer, I have a few spares laying around...
 

c17chief

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NJ
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I dont buy the DPF being clogged already with that low miles. If you were even going to consider it, you'd have to ask yourself why it was only CEL and not the DPF lights....you know how outside the normal regen, it's supposed to flash during a forced/emergency regen, and stay on or something a step beyond that when a dealer has to do their magic on it...something to that effect. Based on the info given, I would guess it's all in the EGR system, whatever the problem actually is...but since they are footing the bill, they want to throw a new DPF in too, have at it. :D
 

JSWTDI09

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2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
I'm pretty sure that the only way the DPF could possibly be clogged so soon is if there was a bad sensor (or bad ECU) and the DPF was unable to regenerate. I find this doubtful. It is a pity that VW dealers do not understand how their cars function. Understanding how a device works is the most critical thing necessary to fix it (whether it is a car or just a toaster).

I hope any repairs are covered under your warranty. You should not have to pay for their incompetence.

Have Fun!

Don
 

specsalot

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I dont buy the DPF being clogged already with that low miles. If you were even going to consider it, you'd have to ask yourself why it was only CEL and not the DPF lights....you know how outside the normal regen, it's supposed to flash during a forced/emergency regen, and stay on or something a step beyond that when a dealer has to do their magic on it...something to that effect. Based on the info given, I would guess it's all in the EGR system, whatever the problem actually is...but since they are footing the bill, they want to throw a new DPF in too, have at it. :D
Yep, your comments make absolute sense. If the OP wasn't seeing any kind of performance issues with the vehicle, it's not likely that the DPF or LP EGR filter are actually severely clogged. Sounds like VW is doing a diagnosis by computer print out rather than really fixing the problem. This implies the OP winds up driving home with the same unfixed root cause that he drove in with.

Softrockrenegade - You've got to press your dealer for some answers here. Please keep us posted on what they actually did besides just throwing these parts at the vehicle.
 

Softrockrenegade

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Thanks for all the replies . My driving habits consist of 130 miles a day commute 50/50 highway/city and I really don't baby the throttle. I have interrupted a few regen cycles when stopping for coffee in the am but I don't think that should impact my over all driving enough so that regens weren't doing their job ? The car had no performance issues while the light was on and drove fine ... I asked the service writer what could have caused this and he said it was due to a leak and just said it shouldn't happen again ! I also suspect something wiring/computer related but I'll just have to wait and see.

Edit: one other thing , when I picked the car up on my way home it had the longest,roughest regen cycle I have ever caught while stuck in traffic with the brand new filter ....?
 
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KraftwerkB6

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Lexington Ky
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2010 JSW
given your driving habbits like you said is 130 miles a day 50/50 seems the vehicle should have no issues on regen.
But if your doing a lot of in town driving after work, or on the weekends it could slowly clog up the dpf and egr. its not uncommon to see this happen to a lot of in town driviers or people who think they get the regen cycle going but in fact they interupt it or dont let the vehicle do it at all.

The top and bottom pressure sensors check the pressure of the dpf, if they do not match they check flow and by this time its usually weak and it throws a CEL on or the DPF light will come on, which is instructing you to go drive it and make it preform a regen cycle. It could have been when it first came on, you maybe did more city driving or the regen cycle did not complete. after getting a little bit clogged then it just kept slowly getting more and more clogged.
If all 3 lights come on the clsuter then the DPF is shot and needs to be replaced with the EGR as well. I saw a jsw with lower miles have a dpf failure, but she did do all city driving.
 
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Softrockrenegade

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I could accept the city driving thing if the car had over 100k on it but after 5k no way.... By the way when I say city I just mean roads with traffic lights... I still can drive the car pretty spirited In town lol..
 
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golfTDI1

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New York
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WOW...this is a lot to digest. My driving habits are similar to yours Softrockrenegade and I'm curious as to how often you experience re-gen cycles. I have abt 28,000 miles on my '10 Golf TDI and I can honestly count on one hand the number of times I actually noticed the car in an active re-gen. cycle. Highway distance driving is supposed to be good for passive cleaning of the DPF and active cycles are supposed to be occurring less frequently. I'm curious to know if active cycles were occurring quite frequently for you before you brought the car in. It also amazes me that you had an active re-gen cycle driving home from the dealer after they replaced the filter. you are supposed to go at least 550 miles between active re-gens. It sounds like they did not cover all bases. Its fine now because you are still under warranty, but this $#!^'s not gonna fly when you're footing the bill down the road! Hold these people accountable!
 

KraftwerkB6

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Lexington Ky
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2010 JSW
I have seen a handful of a couple new TDI jetta's with DPF failures with less then 5K on them. Only because they drive in town, they never take it out to get warmed up or burn the soot off.

its not totally just spirited driving that you need, the system needs to be warmed up, and needs to get to temp in order to preform the regen. So if your only driving from your house, through the city light to light to light and then the store, and then back home or picking the kiddies up at school, and its never getting hot enough or the speed/rpms getting to where they need to be to activate the regen then you will not have one, and eventually the DPF will clog and you will get the CEL and DPF light.
 
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DanG144

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Chapin, South Carolina, USA
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2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
But you should have warnings, right? As someone mentioned before. The first time you get a CEL and the DPF light is not supposed to be when it is absolutely too late.

I am reading this with interest as my wife's normal commute is 2 miles each way.
She does take the interstate to the city once a week or so - 15 miles or so.

In the first 11,000 miles of operation, she has only interrupted the regen function 3 times.

It would sure be nice to have a "Regen in progress" flag. But that would probably bother the average driver.
 

Softrockrenegade

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Never had the dpf light just a cel .. I get it up to speed(60-80mph) monday through Friday) on my commute to work(65 miles each way) so I don't think that was my issue .... A little in town driving on the weekends should have no affect on my car considering the amount of miles I drive durring the week !!
 

KraftwerkB6

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Lexington Ky
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2010 JSW
yea your doing a fair amount of driving, and the regen should have been happening if it was needed during all that driving. Maybe just premature DPF/EGR failure. Or not enough drive cycles, or the dealership instead of trying to force a regen went ahead and took the short cut and replaced the dpf and egr.
Also, not sure why it would need to preform a regen after you picked it up, they should have reset the soot value to 0, or at least checked to see if the ecm can see what value it is at.


the dpf soot level is taken by a load measurement value of a drive cycle which consists of 466-621 miles. so the sensors look at the loads and look at the pressures before and after the dpf for how much exhaust flow, and reading the pressure values it knows if there is enough flow or not.
There is a soot level graph which shows if your soot level reaches 25 percent in load the cel lgiht will come on, if you ignore it or it does not preform a regen, and then moves to 40 percent load it will kick on the cel, dpf and glow plug light, if then not taken care of and goes to 45 percent its game over for the DPF. usually at 40 its already too late.


That is what happend to my DPF, I only drive 5 miles to work and back, and almost no high way unless its for a trip, I had less then 10K on mine before the CEL light came on for poor flow. I kept driving although knowing it was bad and some other warranty/dealership issues, but after it exceeded its max soot level the dpf and the egr were bad. At that time I replaced both under warranty, but knowing they will fail again, I then proceeded to get the tune and DPF/EGR delete.

although your dealership could have taken the short cut to replace the dpf and egr but its still very expensive at warranty costs, and dealers like to keep them down. But you could have a pressure sensor problem or or sensors possibly. keep an eye on it.
 
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JungleFBS

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Delaware
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Edit: one other thing , when I picked the car up on my way home it had the longest,roughest regen cycle I have ever caught while stuck in traffic with the brand new filter ....?
when my DPF was replaced at 24k it went through a couple regens in the first week. the dealer even did a forced regen at install. seems to be ok 4k later but now the EGR filter (cooler) thing is rattling.
 

ESFlash

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Austin TX
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2010 TDI SportWagen 6MT
Welcome to the DPF failure club. The DPF failure might be more widespread than folks think, and not always easy to diagnose.

Mine had to be replaced at 12600 along with the EGR filter, and Catalytic Converter.

I bought the JSW 2010 certified preowned a the end of Jan 2011 with only 7500 miles on it. That very day, after pulling the trigger & signing on the old dotted line and driving it off the dealers lot the CEL came on.

After a few trial and error things were suggested by service, it wound up in limp mode, with CEL AND glow plug light on, and staying in the shop for a week. So for my first week of ownership, I had a loaner.

In that week, the EGR was replaced (fault returned), EGR boost pipe was found to be broken/cracked and that was replaced (fault returned) , central wiring harness was repaired (fault returned), wires were repinned at EGR connector (fault returned), techline involved, computer was reprogrammed and that seemed to fix the CEL illuminating for a short while.

Not long after, around March, the CEL would intermittantly come on go and then stay off for a while and then pretty much not go off.

I finally brought it back again in the middle of May which is when they determined the DPF was cracked. They gave me a loaner & kept the JSW for three days.

I can't say I know a lot about the ins and outs of these engines but it seems if you get the possible "faults" for EGR flow, CEL and replacing the EGR fails to fix the problem, it might be wise to point your service dept in the direction of the DPF........ especially while you are still under warranty as that can't be an inexpensive repair especially when they have to also replace the EGR filter, and catalytic converter as well.

The car runs fine since they replaced the DPF (except for that weird occasional downhill stutter thing around 1800k mostly in 5th or 6th, which I hvnt asked service to address yet -- and the air bag light staying on which required a pssngr front door sensor to be replaced). For the most part I pretty much stopped worrying that things, like HPFP failure, will happen and leave me stranded, --- drive more....worry less --- altho I do have the super triple A 200 mile towing package, just in case.

As you can see, I got off to a pretty rocky start with this car and most folks would have probably pulled the plug during that first week. Not eggsackly sure why I didn't; I like the ride, and for some strange reason I had confidence that the service department would finally get a handle on the CEL/DPF problem. Altho, it did cost me a ton of time and aggravation and I honestly don't know if I'll keep a car this complicated, sensor ridden, and prone to a possible $8k to $10k hpfp grenade repair in the offing, past the 60k VW certified pre-owned extended warranty.......anyway, FWIW, that's my DPF story.
 

CRJSW

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Abingdon, VA
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2010 JSW
I get that code all the time I clear it and go on my way. Occasionally it pops back on when I floor it but Im planning a downpipe anyway so.
One thing I was thinking it could be was that crappy return hose going into the air filter. I have not had a chance to replace mine which is ripped so I was figuring it just was not getting enough flow.
 

CRJSW

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This is the hose I speak of BTW. Yank up on the Air box too hard and it will rip or it was already ripped from previous repair work.

 

BarnyardsTDI

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Ah thats no good. When this day comes on my you can rest assured something with a little more flow will be put in its place :)
 

Softrockrenegade

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Oh believe me I already had a nice long conversation with a local tdi mechanic/tuner about permanently "fixing" the dpf/egr to prevent any future problems ;)


Ah thats no good. When this day comes on my you can rest assured something with a little more flow will be put in its place :)
 

ToeBall

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This is the hose I speak of BTW. Yank up on the Air box too hard and it will rip or it was already ripped from previous repair work.

The bracket that hose connects to just goes around the block to behind the exhaust manifold and is open to atmosphere.
 

CRJSW

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Abingdon, VA
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2010 JSW
Ohhh ok no big deal then, I was thinking it was the low EGR return. Crazy though that part goes to the air box but is not filtered. Also I have fine black soot on my foam pre-filter :confused
Thanks Toeball
 

DanG144

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Chapin, South Carolina, USA
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2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
That is the warm air pickup hose. It is filtered before it goes to the turbo. This hose is where most of the black on your filter comes from.

The cold air intake is the intended normal source; on the early A5's there is a thermally operated door that is intended to open at about freezing to ensure the air filter is not clogged with snow.

The problem on the early A5's is that the thermal door operator fails open, letting the hot air intake flow continuously.

I do not know if that is still what is on the common rail warm air doors or not. I have not had my wife's 2010 apart.

In any case the damaged hose is of no real concern.
 

KraftwerkB6

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Lexington Ky
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2010 JSW
I got some pics of that pipe and the hose I can post tonight after work.
It does nothing if you have an aftermarket intake.
ToeBall is right.
 

dpg

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Chi-Town
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2013 JSW TDI, 2010 JSW - retired
It seems like the dpf replacements are coming from owners that have experienced multiple CELs early on in their ownership. Could we say that those of us that have had little to none CELs in the first 15k of ownership should be ok on dpf life? As far as not having to have to be replaced within 20k miles of ownership?
 

KraftwerkB6

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Lexington Ky
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2010 JSW
Well the DPF could fail any time if you are not letting the system go into regen mode. or if you happen to change your driving and did all city and no high way driving.
 

Softrockrenegade

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Howellbama, NJ
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These should be trouble free for 120k when vw says to inspect it in the service schedule ... Driving style should not be a factor.... Iv never had to worry about where and how I drove any other car i have owned or else a several thousand dollar fix would be required !!!
 
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